Abortion is a gift from God

Gryphon66
If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Manage your own life, and leave it to others to manage theirs.

How is that complicated?

When my neighbor shoots his wife, it's my responsibility as a human being to call the cops. How is that complicated?

Gryphon66
If life begins at conception, thousands of "babies" are "killed" by completely natural processes.

I've yet to see an argument against that fact.

Natural is Natural.

Murder is Murder.

Self Preservation is Self Preservation.

Wookiep

Gryphon66
If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Manage your own life, and leave it to others to manage theirs.

How is that complicated?

When my neighbor shoots his wife, it's my responsibility as a human being to call the cops. How is that complicated?

edit on 5-4-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)

well...its your duty as a citizen to notify "the authorities".

If you want to talk about human responsibility...it would involve you taking a more personal approach.

Gryphon66
If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Manage your own life, and leave it to others to manage theirs.

How is that complicated?

I typically agree with you on this (although I detest the very notion of abortions on a personal level).

But there is 1 area where there is "rub" for me: fathers rights.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Ok, sure. The point being getting "involved" when a human being murders or even harms another human being is all of our responsibility. This, to me should not be made so complicated in order to justify ones choice to murder another human being.

xuenchen

Gryphon66
If life begins at conception, thousands of "babies" are "killed" by completely natural processes.

I've yet to see an argument against that fact.

Natural is Natural.

Murder is Murder.

Self Preservation is Self Preservation.

That's a profound set of tautological statements! Worth deep meditation at some point.

But now, back to the subject at hand.

If the natural course of 80% of conceptions is to be aborted, how can anyone say that abortion is not a natural act. Random chance or intentional action. The effect is EXACTLY the same.

Sorry Beezer ... I don't think there's any other way for an "abortion" thread to go. Best of luck with your experiment.

Gryphon66
If life begins at conception, thousands of "babies" are "killed" by completely natural processes.

I've yet to see an argument against that fact.

Some of these are due to completely natural processes like genetic mutations or weakness or malformation, so how could there really be an argument against these facts?

But here comes the slippery slope. If they could I'm sure some have and will still argue that the mother murders the baby in utero by not getting adequate medical care or nutrition or drinking or smoking or just flat out not taking care. No matter if this is due to just plain poverty or unawareness or even the fear of judgement imposed by the very ones who would go there. And notify authorities.

And hasn't this already started to a degree by some trying to prosecute mothers for drinking or smoking during pregnancy. what this all can lead to is any pregnant woman being tied down and force fed and controlled to do exactly what someone thinks is right from them or accuse them of murder on the mother's part.

And in some cases of multiple fertilization one baby absorbs or starves another. So if life begins at conception is that then murder too?

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Agreed. Personal rights are only inviolate as long as they are the rights of white, straight men.

For women, racial minorities, gays and lesbians, etc., there's always SOME justifying rationalization that their individual rights are NOT inviolate.

Usually involving the whitest white guy of them all, Big Daddy in the Sky. (Although, arguably, He's Semitic, but sssshhhh.)

It would be fun watching the complex verbal gymnastics to justify the self-contradictory if it were not so pathetically sad.

reply to post by Gryphon66


What a bunch of crap.

Are you really comparing a miscarriage to choosing to go to a Dr. to get scraped as the same thing?

Gryphon66

For women, racial minorities, gays and lesbians, etc., there's always SOME justifying rationalization that their individual rights are NOT inviolate.

It is sad considering the group most often victimized by abortion are minority babies.

Gryphon66
If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Manage your own life, and leave it to others to manage theirs
How is that complicated?

You are asking that of bigoted religious zealots, I am guessing your question is rhetorical.
These people cherry pick bible passages to suit their agenda or cause while discarding the majority.
Just for making this thread or posting against or for abortion is a sin, they are judging and persecuting folk.
I would rather there were no abortion but I will not judge or attack or picket clinics or those who undergo them.
These folks are in for a real shock when they get to them gates and I mean the judgers.

Wookiep
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

If your assumption is correct (and it's a reasonable assumption) then where do you stand on abortions after 3 months?

After there is brain functioning, then it isn't an abortion, its killing a person imo. And so only in cases where it is endangering the life of the mother.
I say 3 months because its my understanding that that is literally the most special case earliest a child could even start to have brain functions on any level (due to central nervous system forming and so a remote chance that faster than normal developed fetus could start brain function.
Some have tried to show me that this isn't possible until around the 5th month.
I error on the side of caution. After 3 months, a person decided already anyhow.

Right now, the pro-choice crowd doesn't even have a set standard, it's just ok to "choose" no matter what.

Which is why a non religious discussion about a person verses life needs to happen. The issue with mainstream pro and anti on both sides is they tend to go to extremes and the philosophical discussion is then removed from the table.

reply to post by SaturnFX


That was a good straight-forward and solid answer. Thanks for not beating around the bush.

westcoast
I came to that same conclusion a short time ago, as far as what would make a good argument with an intelligent, scientific-minded person over when a life starts.

That would mean that life starts at around six weeks in. I will double check that, but I believe it is around then that the brain starts to have electrical activity.

For me, it is as soon as there is growth, for that is really the beginning a living organism. Intelligent life, yes, when the brain becomes active. Either way, thousands of babies, and intelligent life-forms are killed monthly.

Mhmm, its a good conclusion to come to. it makes sense, logical, etc.
However, I think with a bit of poking around, you will find the central nervous system is working right around the 3rd month timeframe, the brain activity starts a bit later than that. Some will suggest it is much later than that, but I think those people are fooling themselves.

Ultimately the brain is the person, and people are protected, have rights, etc. It is important to nail down exactly when brain activity starts and the lifeform starts experiencing sensation...

I fully support the day after pill to be a decent alternative to birth control...not perfect. A better version of norplant should be developed or some other form of easily reversed sterilization.

reply to post by beezzer


Hey Beezzer,

But why mock religion? Really? Do we have to hate on those that believe in God?

I think this sums it up nicely:

Rom. 1:28-32, "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

They just pay lip service to virtuous behavior, they don't actually practice it. Their "nobility" is a myth.

Take heart though Beezzer; and remember, Paul was once Saul.

thesaneone
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

What a bunch of crap.

Are you really comparing a miscarriage to choosing to go to a Dr. to get scraped as the same thing?

I don't think he's doing that at all. And neither was I. But, see, by the logic of some of the arguments here, it could well go that way someday. Hence the slippery slope thing and the true importance of choice and control over one's own destiny, no matter what the cost real or perceived.

Gryphon66

westcoast

Gryphon66
If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Manage your own life, and leave it to others to manage theirs.

How is that complicated?

Do you feel the same way about the person trying to break into your house and murder you? Just let them live their own life? Just let you manage your own and don't help you?

You're right. It's NOT complicated.

The person breaking into my house is causing me harm.

If I have an abortion, how is that causing you harm?

Oh my goodness...*face-palm*

YOU are causing harm to an innocent child that can't protect itself.

WHY did I get on this thread? Sorry op, don't want to turn this into just another debate. I am done.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


This is pretty amazing to think about, the idea that we are linked to our Grandmothers in that manner.

I struggle with the idea of someone else having control over my body and what I do with it. But, when faced with the choice myself, it's a no-brainer, and I have a son as the result of my convictions, a being that changed my life completely. I simply couldn't live with the idea of ending another's life at the age of twenty-one.

The fact is, that I don't judge others for this decision, it simply saddens me. I have known many women who have had abortions, but I don't know any who don't regret the decision, and some grieve mightily. 'Been round a few who have had a few too many and end up sobbing while telling their stories. I just think that if you are young, you really have no concept of how immense this decision is and the consequences of said decision. Our society simply makes it so easy to make this decision. Act now, feel later.

thesaneone
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

What a bunch of crap.

Are you really comparing a miscarriage to choosing to go to a Dr. to get scraped as the same thing?

The effect is exactly the same. No fertilized egg coming to term; no fetus coming to term.

The natural process has evolved to limit the number of pregnancies.

If the fertilized egg is a person, the body naturally flushes around 80% of them.

If the fetus is a person, the body naturally aborts around 31% of them.

Are these zygotes and fetuses that are lost to nature also murdered? If so what agency is the murderer?

Well, beezzer, so much for your request to avoid making this a discussion about abortion....There are some topics that just can't be discussed in public.

politics, religion, abortion, guns, ufos, etc....