The book of Enoch was the source of the biblical angelic names Michael and Gabriel.

reply to post by Danbones


I did not think it was possible to date the flood, there was one, too many records from that area say there was... but any actual dating would be near impossible I would think.

How would dating the flood help add validity to the book of Enoch? This I am not understanding.

fenson76
reply to post by YoComrade

 

They were kept secret because a group of old men decided it was the best way to keep power by limiting knowledge and the rights of women among other things.

What a very ignorant thing to say, easily proven as false by spending a few days researching the oppression of women and children in ancient pagan societies. How far have we fallen when we come to view Jesus Christ as an oppressor of women and children when in reality He freed nearly every civilisation from child sacrifice and women serving as temple prostitutes and gave women a cherished status within the family unit? He reinstated women in her proper role. Do you think women forced to live in a patriarchal pagan society, serving as temple priestesses and watching their men prefer religious' beliefs which allowed them to sexually groom the young boys, otherwise known as pederasty? Do you really think that feminism is of God when it destroys families, removes women from the home and thus allows children to be raised by the mass media pulpit and forced education? Do you really think any of this is for the benefit of the women or children? Do you really think the rapid rise of pedophilia and pederasty is not connected to the fall of those leading Christ centered lives and the destruction of the family unit? How do men who subscribe to these religious beliefs of pederasty get hold of children when the mothers are given a high place in the family structure? They don't. So in order to get access to the children, women had to be swayed out of their special roles. Knock the women out of the cherished role within the family and the children are easy pickings for sexual predators who are currently working overtime to not only sexualise our pre-pubescent children but at the same time fighting like mad to push through sexual rights FOR children. It's a ruse - how do ancient pederasts get legal access to children in order to sexually molest them? How do ancient pederasts create a climate in which it becomes socially acceptable and legal to sexually prey upon their target = 9 to 14 year olds?

Spend a few days reading outside of main stream pulpits. Spend a few days critically examining these ancient societies and pederasty. Men who create a climate of religious belief that young boys NEED sexual attention and grooming from MEN in order to 'nurture their soul and spirituality'. Can you connect it to the growing 'extraterrestrials' fiction preaching the exact same thing also?

In order to institute child sacrifice and pederasty, women must be removed from their God ordained role within families. This is accomplished two ways - idiocy like feminism which gets them out of the home or oppression like many Islamic sects which cover them head to toe, silence them in the community and in the family and make them utterly subservient to the 'needs' of the father who has utter power and control or like the RCC forbidding its 'priests' to marry. All have the same end result - the subjugation of women out of their God breathed roles.

And yet you make a comment "limiting knowledge and the rights of women among other things". It is sheer ignorance and lack of true understanding that accounts for these words. I mean no disrespect, but in this day and age stop repeating lies as your truth and instead ask the One True God for real truth and understanding.

Maigret

YoComrade
Great Post!

The Apocrypha is an interesting and somewhat taboo. I have a coworker that's interested in it heavily along with other gnostic texts. For me its hard to break the taboo, there is some reason these books weren't included in the canon. But was that to keep something hidden or to guard from something.

Anyway the movie looks interesting and I'll be seeing it. Also interesting hypothesis about Daniel, worth looking into.

I've found that the books left out of the Bible have interesting new perspectives on religion that don't equate with accepted Christian beliefs, so I suspect this is the main reason they were left out of canon.

For some reason, we tend to believe that those who decided these things, were holier or superior, and/or knew more than we do today. It's hard to realise that they were ordinary men, doing the best they could, with what they had. IMO they failed us badly, because there is so much information in these ignored texts that we need in this day and age.

They were left out for good reasons. They are directly contradicted by the gospel given to us. They are angelogy and demonology glorified.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears WANT to hear.

Think about it. The mass media pulpit has preached extraterrestrials and the belief in 'angels' endlessly and from which, arises the desire for such a thing TO BE TRUE. Once that happens, to suit their OWN desires, people gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears WANT to hear. Enoch for example is upheld in the ufology cults and religions as proof of their claims.

reply to post by Year1


lol, I'm sorry you think it's ignorant but just because I have done my own research and it doesn't go along with what you believe, you feel the need to brow beat me? I stick to what I said. I have spent many years studying the bible and who wrote what. Thanks for your sanctimonious response though. Tell me why we hear nothing of Lilith or the scrolls that talk about Mary Magdalene being more than a prostitute. A group of old Jewish men sat and picked through the text they liked and would not rock the boat. They maintained power by suppression. Also, please tell me where I said Jesus was an oppressor. I said those that choose the scripture. Take your false indignation somewhere else and lighten up.

Ok, first I will start off saying that there are tons of mistranslations in the bible. The problem lies in there are just bad translations and some that were just mistakes by people who could not put two and two together based off the other books that pointed out what the word was supposed to say. The big problem is that sometimes there are no exact words going from Aramaic to ancient Hebrew then to Greek and finally to modern Hebrew and English.

Others are

AKKADIAN
EGYPTIAN Hieroglyphs
MOABITE
PHOENICIAN
SUMERIAN
UGARITIC

One guy that I know Mike Heiser is a scholar in the fields of biblical studies and the ancient Near East. He is the Academic Editor of Logos Bible Software. Mike earned the M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 2004. He has also earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields: Ancient Israel and Egyptology).

www.michaelsheiser.com... The same guy that called out Zac Sitchins for his outright lies about UFO's and Aliens creating Sumeria. To be nice Mike just said Sitchins mistranslated just about every ancient thing he ever read. If you want to know what the bible really says then I would start by looking over what Mike says about some of the things he has found first. It would be great if he could re-translate the whole thing for us but I do not think he is going to because he would probably kick the bucket of old age before that massive task could be completed. He makes dam sure he is 100% accurate before he writes anything on his site.

He spends most of his time fixing these errors and some are just blatant to make the bible seem all warm and fuzzy rather than tell the truth about who the devil really is, where and how he will deceive us. What they wanted to leave out was the full story of the Watchers and their offspring with human women the Giant Nephilim.

Angels and Watchers are two completely different species so to say. Their are many species in Gods kingdom, us humans being one and the youngest that we know of so far anyway. What they really are is Supernatural beings not species. They do not go flying around in UFO's lol. That is our governments trick with help from the evil Watchers to fool all of you into thinking the devil does not exist so God himself can not exist either. That is his plan plain and simple people.

The devil was a being of light who could transform into any shape he wanted and so can the rest of the Watchers. The devil was no Angel. That is another huge screw up in the bible. It was only the 200, the devil who disobeyed God and fell from Gods grace. The Devil did not like the fact that his buddies were in deep crap with God and to the devil we were nothing to punish his mighty friends over.

Not all of the Watchers are bad unless you happen to see one here on earth, then yes they are evil and you will probably already be crapping your pants anyway lol. The 200 were sent to Watch us, Guide us in the right direction and report back to God. They were not supposed to help show us how to be idiots and kill one another let alone create a species the Nephilim without Gods say so, allowing them to have no souls.

Seraphim's,Cherubim,Thrones,Dominions,Virtues,Powers,Principalities, Watchers, Angels and Archangels besides us humans are the known groups of gods in the kingdom of God. Yes every group are considered gods in Gods house according to him.

It is where it talks about Gods divine council were you will find the number one mistranslation that baffles most people. The word is Elohim. Elohim in singular form is God himself but when used as a plural it means gods little g's. God never said their were not other gods, he just said do not dare worship any of them but him because he was their Father and the buck stops with him.

reply to post by lostinspace

Noah (film)
The movie is loosely based off the apocryphal book of Enoch.

I think this is interesting.
I have read up on the book in the past by going through the Wikipedia article that you linked to, but held off on going more in-depth on the subject because of my prioritizing canonical biblical studies.
This thread sort of triggered a response in me to where I decided to go ahead and now buy some serious commentaries for 1 Enoch.
I ordered the two volume set on Enoch from the Hermeneia commentary series, and their commentary on Daniel which totaled out to $184 by buying two of them used, and the other new.
I'm interested in finding out what the scholars think about how these two books (Daniel & Enoch) may be interdependent on each other.
Kind of an expensive way to find out but I trust these books (Hermeneia) to be as serious as you can get as to being reliable research.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge

It would be great if he could re-translate the whole thing for us . . .

There is a separate book that you can buy which is a "new" translation of 1 Enoch, made by the same person who wrote the commentary.
www.amazon.com...=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1RXM35330PFAAD3FCW4M
Also available in a Kindle version.

. . . trick with help from the evil Watchers to fool all of you into thinking the devil does not exist . . .

I don't think that there is a literal person, Satan.
There are definitely spirit beings because I have experienced what they can do.
For example I watched a friend of mine get picked up by one (while he was standing) and thrown a pretty long distance, then picked up again from a prone position (where he was sprawled out at the end of the toss in the air) and thrown backwards even farther than the fist time.

The devil was a being of light who could transform into any shape he wanted . . .

Paul says something like that in 2 Corinthians but he isn't saying that from personal knowledge but was quoting the then contemporary literature where this is in an Adam and Eve story, that someone who had the appearance of a bright angel gave them bad advice.
Rather than a being of light transforming into something else, in Paul's quote, it is the devil transforming himself into a being of light.

The devil was no Angel.

I agree with that, despite having been taught that he was, and believing it until quite recently.
My personal feeling is that there are manifestations of the forces of the universe itself operating as a sort of organism, which we perceive as beings, if we perceive anything about them beyond the effects that they are capable of.

the devil who disobeyed God and fell from Gods grace.

Genesis tells us about God's spirit striving against the chaos. I think that these are things that have not submitted and are then personified in myth, but are really things that even God cannot subdue, and are a constant threat to humans.

reply to post by lostinspace


I know that Gabriel and Michael are represented in the Qabalah (pre dynastic Egyptian mystery schooltool (like a slide rule) studied by the Essenes and the actual authors of/or the regurgitated/remembered Enoch?). Michael is an angelic Beni Elohim in the Sephiroph existing in 'HOD' (Tzabaoth god name) a spiritual state of 'glory' one step up from Gabriel (a cherubim) 'YESOD' (Shaddai El Chai god name) Sephiroph state of being is spiritual foundation. Michael is more enlightenned than Gabriel, he is Elohim, the other a cherubim. We as humans are below them in Malkuth heavy matter dense; so it makes sense they exist in the closest state to our consciousness according to how one would read this ancient map of the higher realms and how we acheive Kether state recombining with our creator. Now I can imagine how Gabriel and Michael fit into the schema. "Each of the states of being represents levels of consciousness, and within each reside different capabilities, energies and potentials. The Qabala is a system to understand various energies at those different levels" Paraphrased from "Simplified Qabala Magic"; by Ted Andrews, second Edition 2013. Jesus as an Essene would have known this system, and used it; perhaps to perform his 'miracles' of changing matter form. Who needs the wand/cup/sword etc. when this mystery school information is available NOW still intact as it was then; not scripture or words, just a practice of deep spiritual nature; and was studied by Jesus and his Essene White Brotherhood (that being white magic practiced) and nothing to do with racial overtones. This explains to me why Jesus did not have to document or "Dear Diary" his lifestyle/day to day probable exasperations trying to explain himself (you either got/get it or not).

Apocryphal books are not really gnostic. Gnosticism is something entirely different. This is why you won't find the Gospel of Judas in any apocryphal Bible. Apocryphal books were, I believe, considered a bit fantastical for the men who canonized the Bible. The knowledge inside was a bit more detailed than the traditional texts, but the source idea was found to be similar. Therefore you can still find Bibles with the Apocryphal books inside. They are not hidden in any way. They were just a bit worrisome I'd imagine, as anyone adding onto or taking away from the Bible was to be put to death, as per the Bibles teaching.

The Book of Enoch is a very interesting book, and seems to expand upon the story of the nephilim in Genesis. Where as the Genesis account is short and sweet, the Book of Enoch goes into vivid detail about the actual sins that were the cause of the great flood. If this was actually written by Enoch, who can know. I do know that Enoch is one of the only men to live thought to have not had to experience death, as G-d took him. This, if correct, would tend to indicate that he was a very righteous man. It could also be a wording issue. But either way, pretty interesting stuff. In particular, I found the account of his witnessing heaven and the fiery stones which are reffered to in the canon in Ezekiel 28.

As another point, Ezekiel 28 also has G-d talking to the king of Tyre. But than something interesting happens. He starts referencing things that no man has been or experienced. He talks of the king as if he was anointed a guardian cherub anointed with precious stones and walking among the fiery stones. This seems to indicate that one man was actually two different beings. He addresses the king first, then something else entirely second. Could be the story of the fallen angels and the evil spirits have a connection. Or could be a wording thing. I guess it is open to interpretation.

To add on, Azazel is also recognized in traditional Judaism as the spirit which receives the sacrificed goat which is thrown from a mountain. Supposedly the goat was either sent into the forest or thrown from a mountain. This is another very interesting connection to the references to fallen angels. Also, in the Bible it says that the everlasting fire was actually set up for these traitorous spirits, and men only receive this because of their choice to follow them. Kind of puts a new understanding on the old crime and punishment that detractors tend to focus on. Also explains a lot of what we see, in my opinion.

This is why apocryphal books are still respected in some circles. They tend to follow the same meaning as the traditional texts. Gnostic books are considered heretical by all people who hold the traditional beliefs closely. If you want gnosticism, you will not find it in the Apocrypha. You should look elsewhere. I personally avoid any contact with gnostic books, and any person who loves the Bible should probably do the same, as the meaning is entirely contrary to the Bible itself.

pleasethink
This is why apocryphal books are still respected in some circles. They tend to follow the same meaning as the traditional texts. Gnostic books are considered heretical by all people who hold the traditional beliefs closely. If you want gnosticism, you will not find it in the Apocrypha. You should look elsewhere. I personally avoid any contact with gnostic books, and any person who loves the Bible should probably do the same, as the meaning is entirely contrary to the Bible itself.

Gnostic texts are not for everyone; being of a very esoteric nature they describe the human as formulated/a laboratory experiment introduced here by 'other off world personalities'. No singular God involved here those manipulating the human genome are percieved correctly as 'Demi Gods' (those higher up in dimensional realms) able to step down in frequency to insert the 3d human species. For Gnostics, including Jesus this is a basic truism. He would have little interest in the Bible (leaving NO potencial written word behind to be included in) or the Koran as written as it just does not apply to the real tenents/circumstances of our creation as he, John the Babtist and other Essene Gnostics understood this process of human creation; man was created intact by others of an extraterrestial origin, and did not evolve at all (what is thought to be evolutionary links are actually trials, or MISTAKES that died out never achieving civilization status). I dont understand why this is not universally understood regarding Gnostic traditions and if not; why swept under the rug as this knowledge is available to anyone who is interested in it. Jesus studied the Qabalah; it is the key to understanding ones path in search of recombining with the creator (it also holds the answer of how one can manipulate matter; explaining his miracles. He would never have studied the Bible or taken it at all seriously other than a book of intrusive vindictive guilt ridden rules (maybe would have liked Psalms or the parables introduced as strickly metaphor). I also dont understand why the Qabalah is thought to be of a Hebrew tradition; it is not: it is Egyptian in origin 'borrowed' said in kindness rather than the obvious stolen (and not completely understood by the borrowers). The Essenes understood this and even as they are classified as 'Hebreic' in tradition were NOT (and so were persecuted to extinction in 70AD, those traditions held and can be observed now within the former Knights Templar, Freemasonery and Roscricusion discipline). Surprising of all is that Jesus was not a 'Christian' (other than the Greek interpretation of being a brother), this was Pauls invention as an egomaniac; Christianity was Pauls deal; and I wonder how he qualified its creation to his commitee overseers on the other side of this false and deceptive plane that simply mirrors that above us (less dense is all but having every same circumstance of law, justice etc).

OpinionatedB
reply to post by Danbones

 

I did not think it was possible to date the flood, there was one, too many records from that area say there was... but any actual dating would be near impossible I would think.

How would dating the flood help add validity to the book of Enoch? This I am not understanding.

well here we go

Noah died 350 years after the Flood, at the age of 950,[4] the last of the extremely long-lived antediluvian Patriarchs. The maximum human lifespan, as depicted by the Bible, diminishes rapidly thereafter, from almost 1,000 years to the 120 years of Moses.

en.wikipedia.org...

ascribed to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah
The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) are estimated to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably was composed at the end of the 1st century BC.
... "Enoch the Seventh from Adam"

en.wikipedia.org...

i hate to admit how terrible i am at math, but im going to get a calculator out and guestimate this
so once we have a date then we can progress a little on what was going on in the world around the time of adam
then we can look around..maybe see who the other characters might be...who might the term angels be referring to

reply to post by Danbones


Enoch-Methuselah 65 Years, Methuselah-Lamech 187 Years, Lamech-Noah 182 Years. That is 434 years between Enoch and Noah. Source: Wiki Answers

Does this help?

reply to post by Danbones


So, I have done a little more digging, and here is what I found. Ballard is the person who found the titanic, and he started working on a project about finding out whether or not Noah's flood really happened, and trying to date it.

From the looks of it, he did... the flood happened around 5,000 BC. Now, Enoch was born 432 years before Noah, and Noah's flood did not happen according to some scholars until He was 600, so you are looking for the situation right around 6,000 BC.

Ballard is using even more advanced robotic technology to travel farther back in time. He is on a marine archeological mission that might support the story of Noah. He said some 12,000 years ago, much of the world was covered in ice.

"Where I live in Connecticut was ice a mile above my house, all the way back to the North Pole, about 15 million kilometers, that's a big ice cube," he said. "But then it started to melt. We're talking about the floods of our living history."

The water from the melting glaciers began to rush toward the world's oceans, Ballard said, causing floods all around the world.

"The questions is, was there a mother of all floods," Ballard said.

According to a controversial theory proposed by two Columbia University scientists, there really was one in the Black Sea region. They believe that the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea. The force of the water was two hundred times that of Niagara Falls, sweeping away everything in its path.

Fascinated by the idea, Ballard and his team decided to investigate.

"We went in there to look for the flood," he said. "Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under."

Four hundred feet below the surface, they unearthed an ancient shoreline, proof to Ballard that a catastrophic event did happen in the Black Sea. By carbon dating shells found along the shoreline, Ballard said he believes they have established a timeline for that catastrophic event, which he estimates happened around 5,000 BC. Some experts believe this was around the time when Noah's flood could have occurred.

"It probably was a bad day," Ballard said. "At some magic moment, it broke through and flooded this place violently, and a lot of real estate, 150,000 square kilometers of land, went under."

The theory goes on to suggest that the story of this traumatic event, seared into the collective memory of the survivors, was passed down from generation to generation and eventually inspired the biblical account of Noah.

Source

And there you have it... you are looking for approximately 6,000 BC for Enoch.

Does this help you more?

reply to post by OpinionatedB


wow great work OPI
we have this:
harbours on the edge of the continamtal shelf at 7000 bc


www.abovetopsecret.com...

The angels mentioned in the older books of the Hebrew Bible are without names. Indeed, rabbi Simeon ben Lakish of Tiberias (230–270), asserted that all the specific names for the angels were brought back by the Jews from Babylon, and some modern commentators would tend to agree.

en.wikipedia.org...

Ezra, a post exile character, encounters the angel Uriel. This reference is from the Second Book of Esdras written by Ezra, which is also included in the apocrypha.

It appears they picked up these names from a certain source within Babylon. Could it be Enoch1?

reply to post by lostinspace


Michael = Mi (Me) cha (Kha) el (Ale) Me Snake Fail.

Gabriel = Ga (God) bri (Breed) el (Ale) God Breed Fail.

OR...

Me snake fell

God breed fell (Anunnaki) Landing on Earth (Heart)

reply to post by 0d1n5Unh0ly6h05t


Fenrir = Odin’s Krypt (O) Night.

Were you joking? I couldn’t tell.

reply to post by lostinspace


Does it matter?

Year1

Maigret

YoComrade
Great Post!

The Apocrypha is an interesting and somewhat taboo. I have a coworker that's interested in it heavily along with other gnostic texts. For me its hard to break the taboo, there is some reason these books weren't included in the canon. But was that to keep something hidden or to guard from something.

Anyway the movie looks interesting and I'll be seeing it. Also interesting hypothesis about Daniel, worth looking into.

I've found that the books left out of the Bible have interesting new perspectives on religion that don't equate with accepted Christian beliefs, so I suspect this is the main reason they were left out of canon.

For some reason, we tend to believe that those who decided these things, were holier or superior, and/or knew more than we do today. It's hard to realise that they were ordinary men, doing the best they could, with what they had. IMO they failed us badly, because there is so much information in these ignored texts that we need in this day and age.

They were left out for good reasons. They are directly contradicted by the gospel given to us. They are angelogy and demonology glorified.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears WANT to hear.

Think about it. The mass media pulpit has preached extraterrestrials and the belief in 'angels' endlessly and from which, arises the desire for such a thing TO BE TRUE. Once that happens, to suit their OWN desires, people gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears WANT to hear. Enoch for example is upheld in the ufology cults and religions as proof of their claims.

Just to clarify, what is 'the gospel given to us'? Is it the traditional Christian 'good news' of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?