I have a question please

First let me say that I am ignorant on Fraternities.....I have never been one to look into them, care about them, or date those into such things...I will also admit, with the above being said, I have a pre-conceived idea about them....

1) BIG difference between Fraternities and a secret society
2) Fraternities are a college thing for boys into partying & girls
3) Many Fraternities involve sexual abuse
I have always looked at Fraternities as a little club for insecure boys to gang together and feel they "belong"

SO.....someone enlighten me...

Originally posted by LadyV

First let me say that I am ignorant on Fraternities.....I have never been one to look into them, care about them, or date those into such things...I will also admit, with the above being said, I have a pre-conceived idea about them....

1) BIG difference between Fraternities and a secret society

Well, a fraternity is simply a men's club. Secrect society is harder, because the very term is an oxymoron. If you know about it, the society is not secret. More accurate is that there are fraterities that have secrets to which the general public is not entitled. MOST organizations have secrets to which the general public is not entitled, and no one gets their shorts in a bind over that...

2) Fraternities are a college thing for boys into partying & girls

Not really. The elks, Moose, Masons, Odd Fellows were/are fraternities, and that is not their purposes.

3) Many Fraternities involve sexual abuse

Really? MOST fraternities have nothing to do with sexual abuse.

I have always looked at Fraternities as a little club for insecure boys to gang together and feel they "belong"

Hmmm, society is aobut being together, about bonding, about creating links, about being a part of something. A fraternity is an artificial family, where bonds are created among disparate people for a common purpose. I guess even the army could be seen as a fraternity, though these days it is pretty much unified.

Your assertions are full of preconceived ideas and negative stereotypes. I will use Masonry as an example, as I am a Mason. Masonry serves as a focal point for men that wish to become better men, for their god, their country, their community, their family, for themselves. Masonry does much good in the world, not the least of which is over $760 million per year in cash donations, not even counting community services, scholarships and such.

So, if men get together for the purpose of better serving the communities in which they live by being better members of the community, how in any way, can you reconcile your position on fraternities with their positive effects on society?

I could talk about evolution, and our caveman ancestors, group hunting, and group work that made their clans safer/healthier, and how we are actually social animals, and how banding together improves the society... but I will not, as this could turn into a long dissertation. However, leave it as safe to say that groups, clans, fraternities fulfill an important need, both for the individual and for society as a whole.

Originally posted by theron dunn

3) Many Fraternities involve sexual abuse

Really? MOST fraternities have nothing to do with sexual abuse.

Thanks for the info.... I have heard time and again about the treatment of girlfriends and females in general of fraternity boys, and about strippers and such at their meetings......now granted, I'm talking the little college fraternity clubs here and as I stated above, I am ignorant of fraternities in general...

Theron, you said, "for their god"

Dont you mean God?

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Theron, you said, "for their god"

Dont you mean God?

No, I know he meant "for their God", meaning that as Freemasonry is a fraternity that demands a belief in a supreme being, it does not dictate which one. I would say that TD should have capitalized "God" to further emphasize just that point, but that is mere semantics. The world does not revolve around one belief system, but rather revolves around one belief, expressed through many systems, take a moment to consider that, and perhaps with time accept it.

It is obvious that you have a different viewpoint on the matter, a personal stake in religion, and spiritualism that your busting at the seams to share with the world, please do. The level of diversity, and sophistication of complimenting views on this subject here at ATS is staggering, the opportunity to experience the magnitude of that wealth of information is just a post away...

Nah, stay safe and sound in your own world, a path left unexplored, is but a myth as time passes.

Virgin Monkeys, not just for ritual sacrifice anymore...


[edit on 10/8/2004 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Virgin Monkeys, not just for ritual sacrifice anymore...

PsssssssBWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!

Mirthful, please don't try to convince people here you are a "virgin" Monkey. Heck, I've seen pictures of your girlfriend, Heather Graham. I think not.

LOL MM, you had me going for a bit, I was really impressed by how tolerant you where being to dribbler, well not impressed, actually flabbergasted . But alas, I underestimated your wit and charm, something I will never do again. You never cease to amaze, well done!

thanks MM, for jumping into the breech and lending a hand to a brother...

But im confused. How can a Jew or Christian be a Mason if the God they mention during initiations and meetings is not clearly defined? Why aren't there simply different Lodges for different religions, that way the God they refer to is clearly defined? Or just keep religions references out of it all together?

[edit on 10-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

Uh... yeah.

"Say, I'm confused... how can many Americans of different religions use the same money when the money just says 'In God we Trust,' not 'In Jehova we Trust' or 'In Allah we Trust' or 'In the Universal Brahma we Trust' or 'In the Great Spirit we Trust' or 'In Ahura-Mazda we Trust' or 'In Malak Taus we Trust'?"

Hmmm... maybe people are just bright enough to know that God is God, regardless of the method one uses to worship God, and that no man can know God well enough to say to another "your view of God is completely incorrect."

[edit on 10-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
But im confused.

Yes, you are. You are confusing God, the Creator, with religion. Religion is the human plan to organize man in regards to God.
God is God. He is the Creator and knows no religious boundaries or differences. He is the God of all, regardless of what He is called.
_______________
Uncle Mirthful,
you are the man

Saying GAOTU is too ambiguous. Christians cannot be ambiguous with their belief towards God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Definition of GOD:

Definition: [n] a material effigy that is worshipped as a god; "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god"
[n] any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force
[n] the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions
[n] a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; "he was a god among men"

In other words, "God" the word does not designate which religion (nor even advocates religion) but it is the belief of a superior being .

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Saying GAOTU is too ambiguous. Christians cannot be ambiguous with their belief towards God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Really? I am a Christian, and although I believe Christ was an Avatar of God, I don't pretend to have a full and complete understanding of the nature of God itself.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Saying GAOTU is too ambiguous. Christians cannot be ambiguous with their belief towards God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

NO ONE IS AMBIGUOUS. I know this may be a hard concept for you, but lets give it a try, eh? Masonry is a fellowship of men with a faith in god, regardless of how we know Him. Masonry is not about putting people into little boxes and labeling them, nor about prosletyzing for any one faith. Masons all beleive in g-d, by whatever name they know him.

So I can easily sit in lodge with a muslim, a jew, a christian, a shintoist a deist, because IN LODGE, it is not relevant HOW a man acknowledges g-d.

Now try to wrap your mind around this: Masonry is NOT a religion, and since it is not a religion, it does not matter to masons or masonry how a man knows g-d. Not any more than it would matter if you were a Rotarian, or a Kiwanian, or an employee of Ford Motor Company.

"In other words, "God" the word does not designate which religion (nor even advocates religion) but it is the belief of a superior being."

That scares me. Since the word does not designate which religion nor advocates religion it is possible this belief of a superior being might be different than my God that I believe in Christianity. If people composed of different religions are masons, then the God could be All or one of those. Its like a trick question, or a loophole so to speak.

You do not clearly identify this "Great Architect of the Universe."

How can you clearly indetify GAOTU as not being Satan if you cannot identify it as God of the Christian religion?

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
"In other words, "God" the word does not designate which religion (nor even advocates religion) but it is the belief of a superior being."

That scares me. Since the word does not designate which religion nor advocates religion it is possible this belief of a superior being might be different than my God that I believe in Christianity.

You must have a tremendously weak faith in Christianity, then. Do you sincerely believe there are "other Gods," and that the Muslim is truly speaking about something different when he says the word "God?" If you do, there's really no reasoning with you, and as far as I am concerned you are an apostate (since you believe in a multiplicity of Supreme Creators rather than just one).

No, I believe in one God. The Christian God. So I will repeat my question since it was not answered.

How can you clearly indetify GAOTU as not being Satan if you cannot identify it as God of the Christian religion?

The Christian God is the Christian God and is Clearly Identified. With GAOTU it is all up in the air.

So if a Satanist believes Satan is God he can join?

[edit on 10-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
So if a Satanist believes Satan is God he can join?

A satanist, by definition does not believe that Satan is God. A satanist believes there is Satan, and there is God, and he chooses to worship Satan. A Satanist who chose to live with utmost morality, to never do anything morally wrong, to always strive for the good, and to always be upright and show rectitude could, in theory, be a Mason, although I can't think of any Lodge which would accept one.

What is more important to you? Being in a brotherhood of people with different religions? Or your belief in God?