I have a question please

Why does it have to be an either or situation?

I just wanted to know which was more important to him.

So my next question is. When people apply to be masons are they asked their religious affiliations?

Goodness gracious, who about doing some research on the group your bashing. They are asked if they believe in god, a supreme diety/being. Religion isn't a belief in God, religion is a system to worship him.

Goodness Gracious right back to ya. Im asking questions so they can be answered.

So, if all they need is to believe in a supreme being it doesn't matter which?

So if someone believes Satan is the supreme being and that Judeo-Christian civilization had turned the hierarchy upside down, they could be accepted as masons?

Do masons freely tell one another what religion they are?

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
So, if all they need is to believe in a supreme being it doesn't matter which?

I don't know, how many Gods do you think there are?
All Masons believe in one God. How they worship Him depends upon their religion.

So if someone believes Satan is the supreme being and that Judeo-Christian civilization had turned the hierarchy upside down, they could be accepted as masons?

Only Christians and Muslims believe in your concept of Satan. That being the case, it would be impossible for someone do believe that Satan is the supreme being, since everyone who believes that he exists are counted among the aforementioned Christians and Muslims (who do not believe that he is the supreme being).

Do masons freely tell one another what religion they are?

That's like asking "Do fire fighters freely tell one another what religion they are." If they want to, they will, if they don't want to, they won't.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
How can you clearly indetify GAOTU as not being Satan if you cannot identify it as God of the Christian religion?

That's the most absurd question I have ever heard.

Let's do a little thought experiment. I come across a giant castle in the desert. It's a beautiful, palace-like place, with instructions on how to live inside in prosperity and beauty. There's a problem, though. For some reason, there's a madman who lives in the desert who occasionally fires cannonballs at the castle... they never do any harm, but they sure are scary.

Now, one day, I start to get thinking, and I realise someone must have built this castle... it didn't just show up on its own. From clues in the unity of design and my knowledge of the castle, I decide there must have been a single architect who designed the castle, and from various clues around the castle, I decide that he's a guy named "Steve," who is a genius, is nice, and only wants me to enjoy the castle in peace and live a worthy life. As time goes by, many others find the castle in the desert, and we all live in farily decent harmony, enjoying the castle, and trying to fight off the madman in the hills as much as possible. To show Steve I care, I wear a little pin that says "Thanks for the castle, Steve!"

One day, a man appears out of the desert and says Steve sent him, and that he is a close relitave of Steve's... in fact, he contends that he was the foreman at the building of the castle, and that he got the plans directly from Steve. Some people believe him, some do not. Sadly, being human beings, we fight about it. Some people, including me, start wearing a pin that says "Thanks for the castle, Steve and Josh!" Still, we're all clear that there was a builder of the castle, and that that guy was Steve. We all start making pictures of the castle to honour them.

The fellow who helped Steve (let's call him Josh) has to leave the castle on a long business trip one day. A while after he leaves, a guy named "Murray" shows up, who says he is a friend of Steve and Josh's, and that he has a radio with which he can hear weekly broadcasts from Steve. According to Murray, Steve has said he prefers to be called "The Big Guy," and that he would rather see people with pins saying "Thanks for the Castle, Big Guy," and that he would prefer not to see pictures of the castle, but rather abstracts.

Anyway, years later, after the fighting dies down, a club starts. The people of this club agree on some basic points:

1) This is a pretty fine castle.
2) The guy who built this castle must be one awesome dude.
3) We should try to enjoy the castle, treat it right, take care of it, and help each other out.
4) We all like to think about Steve, about what he might be like, about how we can better show him that we care.
5) We don't like that madman in the desert... some people say he exists as a single guy, some people say "he" is actually an excuse for the bad behaviour of people in the castle, and some have very complicated other ideas. Regardless, we think he's icky.

Now, for the ease of conversation, we all decide to call the guy who built the castle "The Guy Who Built the Castle." (since some of us think he's called Steve, some of us think it was Steve & Josh, and some of us think he prefers to be called "The Big Guy.") This doesn't mean we're not all referring to the same guy. We all have different nicknames for him, but none of us have ever met him (some of us have read about Josh, but even the records of Josh are pretty hazy), and so we use a description ("The Guy Who Built the Castle,") instead of a name.

Unfortunately, some people in the castle are (and let's just come out and say it) morons. They think of The Guy Who Built the Castle as a mediocre person, much like themselves, who gets angry for absolutely no reason, and who likes beating up on those smaller than himself. They are very angry at the new club. "Who is this 'Guy Who Built the Castle?' Is it Steve, or is it SteveandJosh, or is it The Big Guy?" they ask. "Yes," we in the club reply, and they just get angrier and angrier. "Listen," they say, "you're either for the castle or against it. You're either on SteveandJosh's side (the vast masjority of the morons who talk to the club are SteveandJosh men) or you're working for the madman from the desert! So, change the name to SteveandJosh right now!!!!"

"But... why? You know who I mean when I say 'The Guy Who Built the Castle!' I mean the guy who built the castle! Obviously, the madman in the desert, who is trying to destroy the castle, isn't the same guy who built the castle and told us to take care of it (unless you think that that guy who built the castle is crazy). If I say SteveandJosh all the time, it means I can't discuss the castle with people who, in their private time, prefer to refer to The Guy Who Built the Castle as "The Big Guy," and the people who prefer "Steve" will just think I'm nuts, or have Tourette's."

"You're working for the madman!" say the morons. "If I ever get the chance, I'm going to destroy you and your club! I love SteveandJosh, and I follow all his rules (except the ones about treating everyone in the castle nicely... I don't think he meant those, really)! I hope you enjoy living in the desert when SteveandJosh comes back to kick you out of the castle!"


And so it goes. Who do I mean by "The Great Architect of the Universe?" Why, I mean the Great Architect of the Universe, of course. If you think that Satan was the Great Architect of the Universe, then you have problems far worse than I can fix!

[edit on 10-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

[edit on 10-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
So my next question is. When people apply to be masons are they asked their religious affiliations?

No. Masonry does not discriminate on the basis of religious belief, and has no need to inquire into a petitioner's religion. Religion is between a man and his God, and it is not the job of his fraternity to interfere.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
So if someone believes Satan is the supreme being and that Judeo-Christian civilization had turned the hierarchy upside down, they could be accepted as masons?

Let me ask you something. If someone insisted on calling bananas "cherries" all the time, would that mean that he could eat them without removing the peel, and that they'd be full of pits? No. It would just mean he had a different name for the same thing. If someone thinks "Satan created the universe, created all life in the universe, wants us to be fair and decent to each other, preserves human souls and is in all other ways identical to the way God is described," all that person would have done is used a different name to refer to God. No name is adequate to refer to God, anyway.

To put it another way, with less emotionally charged words, let's say I come up to you on the street and say, "Hey, can you help me out? I'm thinking of an individual.... he was born sometime roughly around 1 A.D., he healed the sick, cast demons out of some people, gave a bunch of instructions about something called "The Kingdom of Heaven," and was actually KILLED and CAME BACK TO LIFE!!! I want to worship him. I think his name was Mithramidod..." Would you say, "no, I never heard of the guy. You must be very evil to worship this other guy instead of Jesus. Go to hell!!" ?

Is you Master's Voice so distant from you that you could not recgnise Him without hearing His name?

But you forgot. There are people within the Castle who spit on the name of steve and josh and honor the actual stones that make up the castle. As a member of the steve and josh society, would he not anger steve and josh for associating with this stone worshipper?

[edit on 10-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

Sigh. Try reading it again. The people in the society all honour "The Guy Who Built the Castle." "The Guy Who Built the Castle" can't possibly mean "the Stones of the Castle itself." People who don't believe anyone built the castle can't join the society. And if you think that the madman is the guy who built the castle, then something's wrong.

Likewise, Freemasons all honour "The Great Architect of the Universe," meaning, "The Great Architect of the Universe," NOT "the devil." Atheists cannot join Freemasonry.

So there are no liars within Freemasony? None lied about their belief in a supreme being?

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
So there are no liars within Freemasony? None lied about their belief in a supreme being?

The maximum punishment, within a regular Grand Lodge, of being discovered to be an atheist, is permanent expulsion from the order. If someone wants to lie about believing in a supreme being, they're going to have to keep it up a looooooong time. Plus, what would be the point? That's like lying and saying you're a tropical fish fancier to get into the national fish fancier's convention. You're not going to have much fun.

I suppose you wouldn't have much fun if you were in the 3rd degree but wouldn't you think someone would get a hoot out of being a 33rd mason and being an athiest while attending mass to place a facade? You and the rest of your 33rd degree friends putting on a show having a good ol' time?

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
I suppose you wouldn't have much fun if you were in the 3rd degree but wouldn't you think someone would get a hoot out of being a 33rd mason and being an athiest while attending mass to place a facade? You and the rest of your 33rd degree friends putting on a show having a good ol' time?

That doesn't even make any sense.

I have a lot of trouble figuring out what your saying, but every 33rd I know (and, although this is reiteration ad nauseum, people with the "33rd degree" are in a different organisation than regular Freemasonry) is devoutly religious. I'm not an atheist, and the idea you could think I am is laughable. The idea you can think Orlan Weber (the Sovereign Grand Commander for all of Canada, a friend of mine, who co-incidentally goes to the same Craft Lodge as me) is an atheist is utterly laughable. The "Jesus Lives" ornaments around his house must be just for show, eh? Or how about a little organisation called the "Royal Order of Scotland?" It's probably the single most prestigious order a member of the Scottish Rite could join, and in fact several 33rds in our valley belong to it... it only accepts trinitarian Christians. Hmmmm.

On the other hand, I want to thank you for surprising me. I thought I'd be apopleptic with rage if anyone ever challenged my religion. You've shown me that it's just it's just hilarious.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
I suppose you wouldn't have much fun if you were in the 3rd degree but wouldn't you think someone would get a hoot out of being a 33rd mason and being an athiest while attending mass to place a facade?

First of all, I'm surprised you would refer to "attending mass." I thought that vitriolic, empty-headed, bigoted hellfire-shooting and mud-slinging were a characteristic of Protestants, not Catholics (unless... horror of horrors... you're an Anglican, like me? But that's impossible. As an Anglican, I can tell you we're too boring to sling mud )

But what is this placing a facade? Do you mean placing a wreath? I assume this is a mass for the departed? In which case, you must be a Catholic. Pity. I always thought Catholics were generally a little more well-educated.

You and the rest of your 33rd degree friends putting on a show having a good ol' time?

I would love to put on a show with my 33rd degree friends. We do do so three times a year at our annual degree convocations, of course, but I'd like to see more. Maybe we could put on some plays? I quite like "Waiting for Godot," but it's quite challenging. I myself have played the Rabbi in "Fiddler on the Roof," and had some semi-professional theatre experiences, but it's not, after all, my profession.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Do masons freely tell one another what religion they are?

...well...stemming from a family with a number of Masons in its lineage, our family is predominately Roman Catholic. My uncle is a Mason and also assists with the Readings/Communion with his local Church, as did my grandfather before him. Would say that is a rather 'public' display of ones religious followings.

Also, knowing a few Masons personally, I find the whole concept that Masonary is some super secret dark order of lies and cover-ups to be rather humorous when I compare what is 'said' with what is 'seen'. The Masons I know are perhaps some of the greatest humanitarians I've ever had the pleasure of encountering...always willing to help anyone and constantly working towards the betterment of their fellow man.

Tho', of course, they could ALL be a bunch of liars who do tremendous good for their communities and numerous charities in the hope all that positive work will be a nice cover for their own hidden evils...but...then again...I doubt it.


Peace,
ALIEN

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
So there are no liars within Freemasony? None lied about their belief in a supreme being?

I've been taking an informal survey of people. It seems to me that people who complain and rant the most about other people lying, cheating, etc. are more often than not guilty of the "sin" they complain about.
Example: Ooooh, "I" just can't stand Johnny...he always cheats on his taxes. And, I like to tell others that Johnny cheats, hiding the fact the "I" do it even more than Johnny does.

Detective, does your religion teach tolerance? How about judge not, lest ye be judged? I wonder why you are so intent on casting Masonry in such a bad light?

Alex, i never called you an atheist. I just brought up the possibility that someone in freemasonry could be. Sorry, I have concluded with my investigation.

This is why:

www.chick.com...

Look over the whole thing. Everything in there i believe except for the part about Tommy.

[edit on 10-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Sorry, I have concluded with my investigation.

Boy-oh-boy, you'd put Joe Friday to shame.

What exactly was this "investigation," Kojak? I can just imagine you "investigating" kids in the local playground by shoving them face-first into the mud.

You never implied I was an atheist? Well, what did you mean by me and my 33rd degree friends "putting on a show?" You also called a friend of mine an atheist (since he is the Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite for Canada), and several other friends who have 33rd degrees in the S.R.