Cobra Maneuver: The Truth.

I have heard alot of 'talk' and confident bragging here on the famed "cobra maneuver" and the "super-cobra" by the Russians, who brag about this also, Sukhois's (Su-37's, etc).
I wish to discuss some facts that illustrate the "cobra's" ineffectiveness.....

First, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" can only be done without any armament and with less than 50% or half the fuel tanks.....

Second, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" performed in a wrong way can cause serious damages and in fact, has attributed to numerous deaths of pilots at 15g.

Thirdly, the "cobra maneuver" and "super cobra" is only effective if the interceptor is really close and does not pick it up ....

Fourth, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" slows the Sukhoi down so much that if the interceptor spots the maneuver early enough and adjusts there is absolutely no way that the Sukhoi can survive.

Fifth, the only air maneuvers that the Sukhoi's can truly claim as a "no one else can do" is the "Super Cobra" and "Kulbit".
The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver".

Sixth, the Sukhoi's can also do a 120 degree AOA (angle of attack) which they also brag about but fail to comment on how long the aircraft can hold the position. The 120 AOA has only been proven to have been done a few times and only for a few seconds. And that is not opinion...thats simply fact.
On the other hand.......the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's. This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do. Also, the AOA for the F-22 is unlimited even though it has not been tested outside the wind tunnel tests beyond 80 degrees + AOA. Here is a picture of a F-22 doing such a 70 degree AOA upside down. To confirm this, look at the engine heat:
www.codeonemagazine.com...




Truth beknown, any AOA beyond 60 degrees is pointless or simply not needed.


regards
seekerof

[edit on 15-6-2005 by Seekerof]

most of the new russian fighters are made more for exportability rather than performance and combat effectiveness

I agree with everything you've said. Let's face it, threatening a catastrophic nose up loss to an aircraft should be your last resort...AND you better know what you're doing. Any time you find yourself flying belly to the wind...you're hearing angel's wings.

Aside from that though, let's not minimize that it really looks cool!

[Edited on 21-7-2003 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall
I agree with everything you've said. Let's face it, threatening a catastrophic nose up loss to an aircraft should be your last resort...AND you better know what you're doing. Any time you find yourself flying belly to the wind...you're hearing angel's wings.

Aside from that though, let's not minimize that it really looks cool!

[Edited on 21-7-2003 by Valhall]

Hehehe, thats true Valhall. Its diffently a sight to see, but you know that pilot is feeling the g's though.
I actually found that the old F-14 can do a limited standard cobra and thats pretty good for an old plane like that.

regards
seekerof

I was recently having a chat to a current Boeing Test pilot (who incidently enough did all the spin testing on the F/A 18E/F) about this very subject (high alpha combat). He was of the opinion that although the Su-27/37 aircraft demonstrated the ability to perform these radical pitch ups.....their main achillies heal was compressor stall, leading to thrust assymetry...and departure. I myself am aware that the Russians have had some serious problems with 2nd and 3rd stage compressor stalls causing high alpha departures.
The main point to all of this is that the "cobra" maneuver is great at an air display but in combat its effectiveness is limited to the close in gunfight and even then there is a very real risk of loss of control......as such the lastest 5th generation combat aircraft with effective AWACS coverage will in the "real" world defeat such a threat at BVR.
I just thought Id add this to the points already put forward.

Soooooo, in short, the "cobra" and "super-cobra" are for show and act as a selling point?!

regards
seekerof

hmmm... so Seekerof-boy:
>The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver".
>I actually found that the old F-14 can do a limited standard cobra and thats pretty good for an old plane like that.

any prooves? nuf said, talk further, boys... see 'ya when ANY am's plane will be REALLY able do some simlr ...

I wanted to check it out.. pretty cool.

www.aeronautics.ru...

Originally posted by Meesha
hmmm... so Seekerof-boy:
>The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver".
>I actually found that the old F-14 can do a limited standard cobra and thats pretty good for an old plane like that.

any prooves? nuf said, talk further, boys... see 'ya when ANY am's plane will be REALLY able do some simlr ...

Hehehehe.......first post Meesha?!
In that case, let me say welcome and greetings.....
Your a pretty skeptical guy.....no problem. Currently getting the "proof" you so requested. Btw, I get the impression that you are also one who thinks the "cobra" and "super cobra" is a dogfighting maneuver that will bring air domination? Whats your thoughts on the subject other than your wanting "proofs." I see you have failed to address the "real" truth of the said maneuvers....
Your thoughts, please.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Fury
I wanted to check it out.. pretty cool.

www.aeronautics.ru...

Thats an informative article Fury.
Personnally, the "cobra" maneuver looks nothing more than a "stall" maneuver with a high AOA...and as applied to the Mig-29, etc., that AOA can be 120 degrees. Again, a maneuver that very few pilots can actually do safely, without tearing the plane apart and killing themselves in the process. Hell, a F-14 can do that and do it in a 60 degree AOA.

The maneuver can claim to be "this and that" but it amounts to no real consequence in an actual a2a combat situation. The US is building aircraft, F-22 and F-35, that are made to avoid such a2a engagements to the point of being BVR engagements. I hope that "cobra" and "super cobra" maneuver can save them from a a2a missile such as the US AIM-9x which can literally do a 90 degree turn to hit its target......Oppps....splash another......


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Meesha
hmmm... so Seekerof-boy:
>The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver".
>I actually found that the old F-14 can do a limited standard cobra and thats pretty good for an old plane like that.

any prooves? nuf said, talk further, boys... see 'ya when ANY am's plane will be REALLY able do some simlr ...

Btw meesha, the Swedish Draken aircraft did a version of this maneuver in the 60's. Thats not specualtion; thats fact. It may not have been at 120 degrees of AOA but again.......the maneuver can be virtually done by any aircraft, albeit, maybe not at 120 degrees.

Your comments concerning the maneuver ands it applicability in the current a2a arena would be greatly desired.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

the draken raised a nose to 100 degs., but it didnt stop seekerof.

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by $tranger]

Originally posted by $tranger
the draken raised a nose to 100 degs., but it didnt stop seekerof

.

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by $tranger]

Agreed $tranger.
The significance is the ability to virtually come to a stand still, per se.' But even thats not the case if one actually looks at the video's......the Sukhois and Migs are actually still moving....
It just looks that way because of the high AOA.
I am not "de-facing" the maneuver, as a whole, but what I am indicating is that its effectiveness is minimal to none in light of current missile technologies, etc.
Aircraft are being designed to "avoid" close a2a combat.

Talk to me $tranger. I know you have lots to say. You have alot of knowledge of RUssian aircraft and I would wonder what the "real" benefit, if minimal, this maneuver would have in a real world a2a environment.

regards
seekerof

In respect to the term and definition of "cobra" maneuver I think its almost apparent that many a aircraft can perform this maneuver and be well with the definition. Difference may be in the "super-cobra" and "kulbit" maneuvers, for which no one else can really do. Again, questions come to mind as to the benefit use of such maneuvers in light of current trends away from close a2a to BVR -- beyond visual range.

Some of the US aircraft that can fall within the definition of doing the "cobra" maneuver are:

F-22: this platform has a "unlimited" AOA and can do a sustained constant 60 degree AOA and there is no other aircraft who can do this.

F/A-18 A/B/C/D/E/F: the 18E also does a fairly sustained 60 degree AOA.....fully loaded....drop tanks and weapons.

F-15 A/B/C/D/E

F-16 A/B/C/D/E
F-14 A/B/C/D: still trying to get a viable link to video footage of this.

X-31: this paltform can do "mongoose" maneuver and has been tested in respect to the "cobra/Bell" maneuvers in respect to AOA testing. The Dryden FLight Research Center has video footage to this degree.

Links of interests:

F-15 ACTIVE Program
www.dfrc.nasa.gov...

www.globalaircraft.org...

F-15 ACTIVE and F-18 HARV Programs
www.allstar.fiu.edu...

F-15 ACTIVE archieves first-ever Mach 2 thrust-vectoring
www.qadas.com...

F-16 VISTA/MATV/NF-16D
www.f-16.net...

www.topfighters.com...

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Nice talk , when You can't do something - the only thing to say is:why I will do that?
First of all - small tale from pilots of one Russian aerobatics team :
One time at big airshow f16 pilots asked them (non officially) - which minimal speed (high angle if You understand why I tell it) MiG-29 can achieve? After an answer - Let's try ) - they flyed with minimal speed - 160 kM/h for 29 and 176kM/h for 16... american pilot even didn't had to come to russian pilots to say good-bye or something...
Why people are braking records, make aerobatics, make better planes at all? It's all about same - I (We) can do what You can't just so simple... So if You can't do something one better can - just seat tight and say - why would i do it - it's useless, dangerous ... You name it
Nuf said 2 ...


[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Meesha]

Last weekend saw an ex-Sukhoi design bureau test pilot did some aerobatics on prop (Su29ks - aerobatic prop with ejection seats)... fantastic show... even if it's useless in combat
Sorry my bad english - I'm russian, not my native at all

Originally posted by Meesha
Nice talk , when You can't do something - the only thing to say is:why I will do that?
First of all - small tale from pilots of one Russian aerobatics team :
One time at big airshow f16 pilots asked them (non officially) - which minimal speed (high angle if You understand why I tell it) MiG-29 can achieve? After an answer - Let's try

) - they flyed with minimal speed - 160 kM/h for 29 and 176kM/h for 16... american pilot even didn't had to come to russian pilots to say good-bye or something...
Why people are braking records, make aerobatics, make better planes at all? It's all about same - I (We) can do what You can't

just so simple... So if You can't do something one better can - just seat tight and say - why would i do it - it's useless, dangerous ... You name it

Nuf said 2 ...


[Edited on 22-7-2003 by Meesha]

Perhaps so meesha....the "cobra" can be done by many aircraft, albeit not at 120 degree AOA. Perhaps "we" can't do it, but there isn't a Russian aircraft today that can do a constant sustained 60 degree AOA either.

I apologize if you or anyone felt I was 'attacking' the Russians over this maneuver. The point of the article was to address the significance and use of said maneuvers in combat in the advent that close in a2a combat is going the way of "extinction". Virtually all current aircraft designs "air superiority" are trending towards BVR -- beyond visual range. Can you perhaps give your opinions and those of the "pilots" to this philosophy?
Thanks for commenting though.

regards
seekerof

soo..just to sum things up......the cobra is a "show" stopper...not a plane stopper...unless your on the stick and rudder....and what will it matter when youve got half a dozen advanced tatical AAMs breathin down yer neck fired from a 100Kms away.
I wonder if a violent pitch up manuever might not be a good thing with the rowdy british holiday makers on their way to an all inclusive booze fest on the costa del sol.

Regards Spear

I bet the new Eurofighter busts both your proud arses. As it is built to be unstabile (it uses serious computer stabilisation) it can do maneuvers no other aircrafts can match.

And when will they invent that internal-gravity-stabiliser that will eventually eliminate all G-force trouble?

No matter what anyone says, the cobra maneuver is way cool and has an extremely effective shock effect. air to air combat is very much about psyche and mental strength. If you scare your opponent by doing some really neck-braking turns that demonstrates air superiourity and at the same time being able to fire off those cannons, the fight is more or less won.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 22-7-2003 by mikromarius]

Originally posted by spear
soo..just to sum things up......the cobra is a "show" stopper...not a plane stopper...unless your on the stick and rudder....and what will it matter when youve got half a dozen advanced tatical AAMs breathin down yer neck fired from a 100Kms away.
I wonder if a violent pitch up manuever might not be a good thing with the rowdy british holiday makers on their way to an all inclusive booze fest on the costa del sol.

Regards Spear

Spear, question: didn't you say you were familiar with RAF aircraft?
Do you know what the Eurofighter/EF-2000 "Typhoon" was tested or projected at doing in respect to AOA (angle of attack). WHat is the RAF's current stance or views towards maneuverablility and the RAF's philosophies towards BVR (beyond visual range) strategies? Just wondering....haven't read much on this view(s). Thanks.

regards
seekerof