Europe Medical Care is Better than the US. Time to End the Myth.

yorkshirelad
reply to post by lakesidepark

 

And the problems with the NHS that you site are a direct result of trying to introduce "market" mechanisms to supposedly improve patient care. Instead the bean counters met the bean counting targets just like the nice little capitalists that they are. The NHS in England is slowly being privatised and that is why it is getting worse. capitalism does not work for essential goods and services. The capitalist mechanisms only ever work if the consumer can say no without consequence. Oh and please don't give me the usual right wing BS about "choice of hospital", choice of doctor" etc etc.

Well I won't do that. Actually, you are highlighting my point, that the current PPACA will NOT work precisely because it puts politics into the system, but doesn't take the capitalism out, so we will get a mix of the worst of BOTH.

We already have politicians lying about the statistics now. We still have insurance companies playing the system for profits within the new plan. The plans still make reasonable care unaffordable for all but the poorest patients, and those will still get their teeth pulled when they only need antibiotics, only now MORE poor will have to suffer thru Medicaid and see the same doctors they don't like now, but now there will be fewer of them.

Maybe there IS a system that will work, but this PPACA is not it.

reply to post by lakesidepark


Its more than realistic. You guys don't have a a first world health care system for the majority of your nation. Its unbelievable that this is still the case, after the the turn of the century. Unbelievable. Universal coverage, costs under 100 per month, usually around 60-70, just over a hundred for a family, unless you're low income then its free. Very good coverage.

Here is an interesting personal account article by someone whose father received cancer care both here in American and over in France.

The French system is, according to the author, an expanded medicaid for everyone. They noted how different the treatment was, with very little waiting times for chemotherapy treatments, availability of drugs that the American insurance company prohibited due to cost, a nurse coming to the house to do the pre-appointment blood-draw, in-home visits from nurses and doctors towards the end of life, etc.

The French Way of Cancer Treatment

Having had experience with the overwhelming nature of hospitals and waiting and cancer treatment here in the US, the French system seemed unbelievably compassionate and patient-centered.

I also had an experience in Europe when I was a teenager, accidentally eating something I was allergic to, and a doctor drove to where I was, did an on-site IV treatment, handed me follow-up medication for the rest of the week and made sure I was completely stable before leaving. As a foreigner, and an American used to having to pay for doctors visits, I expected to have to pay and was worried about it the entire time. When I brought it up, he said - no, you don't need to pay me, the State pays.

I don't know how Americans would feel about someone getting free medical treatment while on vacation in American from another country, but apparently they were unconcerned about the cost of my relatively minor treatment. Contrast this to an ambulance ride and an emergency room visit complete with bill for how long you occupied the room they put you in (a reflection of how long you were left waiting there for treatment - certainly not in your control), etc. Now, European countries have higher tax rates, I understand, and that is a sticking point for a large portion of Americans... They say we get what we pay for here, but do we really???
peace,
AB

reply to post by lakesidepark


Your source doesn't provide any links that back up the claims made, and more importantly how the numbers posted were arrived at. The source does list several sources, but anyone who wanted to verify how the numbers presented were derived would have to do a great deal of guess work.

The problems, namely are over what period is this survival rate arrived at? What is the significance of these numbers? A small number could make a large difference in the way these numbers come out. Without this additional information, these numbers are meaningless, as my link demonstrates.

I think my link was a great deal more honest.

reply to post by lakesidepark


So we have become a nation of Ameri-can'ts, not Ameri-cans?

I think this is self defeating.

I say, that if people start to look at what others are doing, that works better, we can make our system much better, but it will take a great deal of political change.

Why can't we do this?

reply to post by AboveBoard


That completely blows away any experience I have ever had with US insurance based medical care.

When my daughter was a baby, I took her in because she had a fever. They charge our insurance company $10K, and we paid $150. Seems to me the real bill was $150.

What a rip off.

reply to post by poet1b


Also German here.
I just wanted to add that we also have the choice to leave the public healtchcare system for optional private insurance here in Germany, which provides excellent coverage for reasonable annual contributions.

So the argument that profit is a bad incentive when it comes to healthcare is wrong. Private insurance corps make very good profits here, so good they even refunded premiums last year(*), so I actually got money back from them.
Both systems work on a high quality level here, side by side in good competition.

(*): how do you say "the year before last year" in english

reply to post by rickymouse

rickymouse
Anytime you make a business where their profits increase from more customers, the possibility of the interest of the business not being in the best interest of the customer increases. Our healthcare system in the USA is flawed.

This would imply an inherently malevolent culture... also, what about customer satisfaction (feedback/reviews) and company reputation as regulatory elements?

aLLeKs
As a German, I just don't understand why the people in the USA hat so much on Obamacare.
You always have the feeling, that they instantly feel like they witness a communist take over or invasion.
I just don't understand it, is the cold war sentiment still that much present?
Why do you instantly call people communists, when they want to improve your healthcare system?
I will nevery understand how even poor people, that probably have problems affording the medical costs, are against it.

Obamacare does not improve the health care system. Europeans seem to be deceived by what Obamacare is. What it is is a mandate that everyone buy insurance. It was written by the insurance industry themselves. It provides no care whatsoever. It does not make health care affordable or more available.

ColCurious
reply to post by rickymouse

 

rickymouse
Anytime you make a business where their profits increase from more customers, the possibility of the interest of the business not being in the best interest of the customer increases. Our healthcare system in the USA is flawed.

This would imply an inherently malevolent culture... also, what about customer satisfaction (feedback/reviews) and company reputation as regulatory elements?

edit on 23-2-2014 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)

How much does the normal patient actually know about the way things effect the metabolism and do many people actually understand diseases such as cancer. Most people think a doctor is good if they are friendly and prescribe things to take away symptoms. Taking away symptoms does not mean you have rid the body of the disease. Same with all the over the counter drugs in the stores, most treat symptoms and the majority of people do not understand which kind of medicine to use for what condition they have.

I'm not against the medical trade in this country, I just think that the system they have in socialized medicine is better...and cheaper since they get paid more if they cure you right away.

groingrinder

aLLeKs
As a German, I just don't understand why the people in the USA hat so much on Obamacare.
You always have the feeling, that they instantly feel like they witness a communist take over or invasion.
I just don't understand it, is the cold war sentiment still that much present?
Why do you instantly call people communists, when they want to improve your healthcare system?
I will nevery understand how even poor people, that probably have problems affording the medical costs, are against it.

Obamacare does not improve the health care system. Europeans seem to be deceived by what Obamacare is. What it is is a mandate that everyone buy insurance. It was written by the insurance industry themselves. It provides no care whatsoever. It does not make health care affordable or more available.

Maybe you can detail this a bit because I am seriously not THAT up-to-date what OC actually does.

I can only give an example of the EU here, whether it be Germany, Spain, France or whatever.

Healthcare is indeed "mandatory" insofar that ANY job but also "officially unemployed" or even being on welfare AUTOMATICALLY gives you one form of health insurance. It's unthinkable (as is the case in the US) that someone has steady employment with no health insurance because an employer would choose to simply not "want to" pay it.

So with OC (correct me if I am wrong!) ALL employers are now obliged to actually provide health care insurance to their employees, and obviously I think this is a good thing.

Eg. employers are "mandated" to provide insurance...but individuals are ALSO mandated to buy insurance, for example there are SOME instances in Europe where you don't automatically get coverage, such as when you are self-employed. Yes as far as I know there are penalties and in the same way as with OC people are actually mandated to obtain insurance if they don't have any.

Question: Does Obamacare address the problem that employees in the US often don't have insurance and does it mandate EMPLOYERS to provide insurance for employees?

And..

Without knowing specifics (this is why I am asking)...it is my notion that OC does insofar improve health care since it makes sure that paid coverages are REASONABLE, eg. that no-one will pay lots of money for inadequate insurance coverage which IN PRACTICE may be entirely worthless. Does Obamacare make sure that if people pay good money for health care they actually get better coverage that includes more, as opposed to their old coverage?

(Example: Say someone has some sh!tty insurance and is already paying several $100s per month...comes an unexpected health issue they STILL face crazy costs..or getting denied special treatment they'd need because their coverage simply doesn't cover it. Does OC address that? If so, it DOES improve health coverage, obviously.

reply to post by lakesidepark


The same in Norway. Sure, there's "free" health care here but sometimes the medical staff and doctors are severely lacking. Especially immigrant doctors who haven't had their full medical education but somehow managed to get a job here. (There was a few cases of this a few years back.)

"Free" healthcare doesn't always mean good healthcare. Something I found out after moving from the U.S. to Europe. (I've lived all over.)

And in all honesty, if my life depended on it I'd gladly go into debt to have something serious treated then have a doctor that doesn't know what he's doing try to treat me.

reply to post by lakesidepark


As has been said, you have cherry picked one story, from one Trust (there are a great many in the UK - some better than others).

Also, for the Daily Mail story, that is from over 11 years ago! I know this because Liam Fox hasn't been "health spokesmen" for the Tories since 2003, so once again you have clearly scoured the internet for a bad story.

And before you scamper off to go and find more (I know there will be, the NHS isn't perfect), we both know I could do the same for the USA and it's "pay me $300k to save your life" system....

In fact, in recent WHO rankings, the US consistently ranks well below the entire of Europe and, shockingly, some developing countries some as the Dominican Republic!

Auricom
reply to post by lakesidepark

 

The same in Norway. Sure, there's "free" health care here but sometimes the medical staff and doctors are severely lacking. Especially immigrant doctors who haven't had their full medical education but somehow managed to get a job here. (There was a few cases of this a few years back.)

"Free" healthcare doesn't always mean good healthcare. Something I found out after moving from the U.S. to Europe. (I've lived all over.)

And in all honesty, if my life depended on it I'd gladly go into debt to have something serious treated then have a doctor that doesn't know what he's doing try to treat me.

you would only need to look into how many STARVE to death in the u.k hospitals every year to see how good the health care really is

reply to post by 999zxcv


Go on then, enlighten us.....

I know the story of which you speak, but I want to see if you know.....

EDIT: And just in readiness, I am poised with starvation examples from the USA....

reply to post by stumason


if i remember right a 1000+ die in hospitals of starvation but my grey matter is getting on

reply to post by 999zxcv


That is a total figure over a four year period for patients who had "starvation/dehydration" put as the cause of death by the coroner.

Some of these persons did die from neglect and mostly at Mid Staffs NHS Trust which was investigated and is being wound up by the Department of Health because the non-clinical management staff made a catalogue of cock-ups and errors which cost lives.

Many, however, were not as a result of NHS care (or lack of). People who have DNR requests (or don't want to be put on life-support) are also included in those figures.

I've seen the sensationalist reporting of these stats in US media and, shamefully, they primarily use the Daily Mail as a source which also neglects to explain the figures but instead paints the picture that patients are being starved in the hospitals by a lack of care, when only a handful were. I can, in comparison, find many examples of patients being starved/dehydrated in US examples as a result of a lack of care/cock ups and I am sure you can find that from everywhere in the world.

People forget the NHS is the largest employer in the UK and looks after 60+ million people. The 43 that died in 2011 from "malnutrition" (which could mean they came into hospital in that state) is a drop in the ocean from the Millions treated every day.

You should get some perspective and read into a story before believing everything you see/hear, especially from US media keen to torpedo "socialised" medicine at any cost.

reply to post by stumason


the u.k and its national health service is like america and its guns they will have a fight to take them away

broken or not it still is the envy of the world and is free at point


with the £700 billion extra that is being borrowed by the goverment of the u.k things will get much better in the nhs

reply to post by poet1b


I have seen the money you have to fork out in America when it's at it's worst, it's insane!

In the UK, part of our tax just goes to supporting the NHS and that's all we pay, you don't even notice that it's gone and we get healthcare which is just as good as in America.

I like to call what is going on in America a tapeworm society, a tapeworm will pump chemicals into a host to make it crave certain foods so the tapeworm can benefit, this is exactly what mass privatisation has done to the US. These corporations (including medical ones!) make you think you need health insurance to be able to have doctors working well for your family! BS! That is tapeworm chemicals being pumped into you.

The only reason the NHS in the UK is failing is because they want it to, they want private companies like virgin to get their claws into our bodies, literally.