Apocalypse...End Of The World, Starring.......

I guess I'm confused where we disagree here, if in fact we do at all..

My original response to OP was, at the base level, a rebuttal to the mention of there being a possibility that OT God and NT God are different.

snypwsd
The fact that jesus is in the same ranking as your god should be considered blasphemy. Remember Jesus was a man, not a god, a god does not die (well in religious theory that is).

Jesus was God made flesh. He died and rose from the dead.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

reply to post by graphuto

. . . there being a possibility that OT God and NT God are different.

I don't think that there was a god of the Old Testament.
There were certain divine beings that were understood as gods but they were really what we would think of today as angels.
God Himself is in a loftier state than these terrestrial manifestations of the supernatural.
Jesus is the representation of God for what we think of as the new covenant, which is really the only covenant, that behind a lot of myth, there is an actual god but not like how people thought that God was like.
We know the reality of God through His son, Jesus.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Then what exactly was Jesus talking about when he referenced the Old Testament?


(Partial quote from exterior site)

In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it “the oracles of God.” The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament; and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.

reply to post by graphuto


It was the only "scripture" that was around at the time...

he used what he had to relate to the people around him...

He spoke to believers in Judaism, he was brought up in that faith... naturally he would use the scripture he learned from...

And he was bold enough to break and change the rules in said scripture... What was considered "the word of God"

And begin his own religion that really had little to nothing to do with the previous "scripture"

Akragon
And begin his own religion that really had little to nothing to do with the previous "scripture"

I don't really understand what you mean. Jesus came to die for our sins :

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Sins are transgressions of the law, or the Lord's statutes, or commandments.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How does the new religion have very little or nothing to do with the scriptures?
Time and time again in the scriptures, God sees the people breaking his commandments and reprimands them.
Salvation is free if you believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead for our sins, but if we love the Lord, we will follow his commandments.

Deuteronomy 30:16
In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Joshua 22:5
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the Lord charged you, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 119:48
My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:5
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Heard from the beginning. Since the beginning, since the first simple commandment that God gave, to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The commandment, is to follow his commandments!

The mode of Satan has always been the same : "Did God REALLY say that? Does God REALLY mean that?"

reply to post by graphuto

I don't really understand what you mean. Jesus came to die for our sins :

that doesn't surprise me honestly... And you quote Paul to back Jesus *sigh*

Jesus came to testify to the truth...

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Sins are transgressions of the law, or the Lord's statutes, or commandments.

Perhaps if you are Jewish...

Sin is transgression of love...

that's why there are two commandments... both of which have to do with Love

Followed by yet another quote from Paul... geez

How does the new religion have very little or nothing to do with the scriptures?
Time and time again in the scriptures, God sees the people breaking his commandments and reprimands them.
Salvation is free if you believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead for our sins, but if we love the Lord, we will follow his commandments.

Right... a Jealous, wrathful tyrant of a so called god...

Why would God need to punish his children IF we return to him for judgement anyways? Or even get others to do his work for him... Tell his followers to rape and pillage... Kill women and children

This is not my God, and I want nothing from this imposter...

And Christian dogma has nothing to do with salvation... ALL are saved from death... that is the gift of God

Though not everyone will be happy once they "return home"

Heard from the beginning. Since the beginning, since the first simple commandment that God gave, to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Sounds about right... Keep the humans blind...

again, this is not my God

What's wrong with Paul? If we're discussing Bible, we can't just take some of it as truth and not the rest of it.
Ok, this may sound strange to you but here it is :

Without the belief that the in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word WAS God, and that the word was made flesh (Jesus), and that he died and was dead for 3 days and rose from the dead, to proclaim the truth and pay the price for our sins, then the Bible just won't make sense to you. This is a supernatural occurrence.

You can't deny the divinity of Jesus and proclaim to understand what he preached. As I said, this is just a simple supernatural occurrence that is talked about in the Bible.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You can't have the Spirit if you deny Jesus, so of course none of this makes sense to you.
You're preaching a false God that is not the God of the Bible, and blaspheming his Word and Son.

Like I said earlier, Satan's mode of attack has ALWAYS been the same since the beginning, to discredit the word of God :

"Did God really say that?"

I won't continue to argue with you on this point because it's foolish. We could literally go back and forth all day, with me quoting scripture to back my position, because of this supernatural occurrence, but I wanted this here for the sake of others.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

reply to post by graphuto

What's wrong with Paul? If we're discussing Bible, we can't just take some of it as truth and not the rest of it.

Says who?

I don't like Pauls writing, that should be enough...

Ok, this may sound strange to you but here it is :

Without the belief that the in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word WAS God, and that the word was made flesh (Jesus), and that he died and was dead for 3 days and rose from the dead, to proclaim the truth and pay the price for our sins, then the Bible just won't make sense to you. This is a supernatural occurrence.

no that is Christian dogma...

basically saying "no one has any idea about anything in the bible IF they don't "believe" the book is God's word"

You can't deny the divinity of Jesus and proclaim to understand what he preached.

I don't deny his divinity... he is the son of God, as he stated numerous times

quit quoting Paul! LOL

It makes me ill...

You're preaching a false God that is not the God of the Bible, and blaspheming his Word and Son.

Incorrect

It is the God in the bible, NOT of the bible...

4 books contain Gods word...

reply to post by Akragon

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Can you explain to us what Jesus means here?

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Later on in the same sermon :

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

reply to post by graphuto

Can you explain to me what Jesus means here?

IF you like...

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Later on in the same sermon :



21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do you know the parable of the "unprofitable servant"?

Matthew

reply to post by Akragon


Sure, how does that relate to what we're talking about here?

This is Jesus talking about how if you love one another, you're following the greatest commandment.

But we don't always treat people this way, every single time. This is sin.
The wages of this sin is death.

reply to post by graphuto

Sure, how does that relate to what we're talking about here?

You just asked me to explain it... I let Jesus explain it for me...

This is Jesus talking about how if you love one another, you're following the greatest commandment.

But we don't always treat people this way, every single time.

Who is this we?

Christians? Ya no kidding...

The wages of this sin is death.

but forgiveness is divine...

reply to post by Akragon


Then who is Jesus talking about being cast away?

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Akragon
but forgiveness is divine...

Why is there anyone on the left side? When I say "we" I mean people in general.

reply to post by graphuto

Then who is Jesus talking about being cast away?

those that don't understand THIS...

There will be FAR more people on the left side than the right side. Why is this? When I say "we" I mean people in general.

Basically because the world or people in general... just don't care

reply to post by Akragon


But against what are we measured in the end? We do both good and evil. No one was blameless, save Jesus Christ.

graphuto
reply to post by Akragon

 

But against what are we measured in the end? We do both good and evil. No one was blameless, save Jesus Christ.

edit on 20-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)

perhaps the amount of love one has shown his neighbour in this life?


Or the lack there of?

reply to post by Akragon


So a person is measured against themselves? If this was the case, no one would be in heaven/on the right side. NO ONE does more good than bad, as mere evil THOUGHTS are sinful, according to Jesus :

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

My point being that we need something to cover what we can't live up to. That something being the blood of the sacrificed Jesus Christ.

reply to post by graphuto

So a person is measured against themselves?

I didn't say that did I...

If this was the case, no one would be in heaven/on the right side.

The kingdom of heaven is at hand...

NO ONE does more good than bad, as mere evil THOUGHTS are sinful, according to Jesus :

And are they not forgiven if we also forgive?

Have ye not read matthew 6?

My point being that we need something to cover what we can't live up to. That something being the blood of the sacrificed Jesus Christ.

More Christian dogma... and Paul

Like I said, there is no point in arguing. We could literally go back and forth all day. You've denied the death and resurrection of Christ, and as such, are preaching false doctrine.

Strange thing about it, the gift is FREE! All you have to do is ASK FOR IT!