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Apocalypse...End Of The World, Starring.......

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posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:52 AM
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graphuto
Like I said, there is no point in arguing. We could literally go back and forth all day. You've denied the death and resurrection of Christ, and as such, are preaching false doctrine.

Strange thing about it, the gift is FREE! All you have to do is ASK FOR IT!


where did I deny that he died or was resurrected?

its all on page 2... please point it out


edit on 20-2-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 



And Christian dogma has nothing to do with salvation... ALL are saved from death... that is the gift of God


I took this to mean that, which I suppose was wrong of me.
What DOES have to do with salvation then?
If ALL are saved from death, why are there people on the left side/going to hell?

DO you believe that Jesus Christ was God made flesh, and that he died and was raised 3 days later?



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 




What DOES have to do with salvation then?


the condition of the heart...


If ALL are saved from death, why are there people on the left side/going to hell?


I don't believe the "Christian" hell exists...

what Jesus spoke of is not the traditional view of "hell" according to christianity....

it has been fabulized to promote conversion through our fear of the unknown...


DO you believe that Jesus Christ was God made flesh


no...

He was the Son of God, Not God in the flesh...


and that he died and was raised 3 days later?


regardless of IF he did or not has no bearing on the message he gave....


edit on 20-2-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:09 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Then my assumption was correct. Let any believer who reads through this thread please see this and learn something.
Good day to you, sir!



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


no your assumption was just that... an assumption

and It was wrong...

as you already pointed out...


edit on 20-2-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:14 AM
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My assumption was that you did not believe that Jesus was God made flesh, and that he died and resurrected. If you DID believe that, you'd have the Holy Spirit as your helper and wouldn't be able to make such claims.

Furthermore, you'd understand what I was trying to say. But as I said awhile back before we even started to debate, there is a supernatural effect happening here, that all of the arguing and scripture in the world can't / won't convince you if you can't accept that one simple thing.
edit on 20-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 10:19 AM
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graphuto
My assumption was that you did not believe that Jesus was God made flesh, and that he died and resurrected. If you DID believe that, you'd have the Holy Spirit as your helper and wouldn't be able to make such claims.


Oh I see... so the "Holy spirit" only comes to Trinitarians...

IF Jesus was Actually God, he would have said, I AM GOD...

but he didn't... he did say that he was Gods son though...

You read into whatever you like... I prefer to take "his word" for it...



Furthermore, you'd understand what I was trying to say. But as I said awhile back before we even started to debate, there is a supernatural effect happening here, that all of the arguing and scripture in the world can't / won't convince you if you can't accept that one simple thing


Because it is a book written by men... and subject to mans flaws


edit on 20-2-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I don't know about you, but my God is a powerful God. Certainly powerful enough to maintain the integrity of the scriptures.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by graphuto
 

We all have the same "ability" that the scripture authors had...Discernment. The authors applied this ability to the world around them. We should do the same by recognizing that.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by graphuto
 

In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it “the oracles of God.” The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament; and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.
Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

(2011 NIV)

This is pretty vague at the end, where it could mean "until everything happens", or "comes about".
For all we know, what he was saying was that he himself was that happening, and from now on, his law is what applies.
So rather than describing a certain permanency to the former law, he was giving the conditions for its end.

Matthew 8:17
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases."
(2011 NIV)

There has to be a recognition that Jesus fit certain prophetic ideals, and it also needs to be seen that this is part of the proof of his legitimacy, that the God who sent Jesus was also able to have something in the words of the prophets to foretell that coming.
That doesn't necessarily mean that every word of every other book that was put into the same collection of writings is 100% accurate and needs to be revered forever as the absolute truth.

Matthew 12
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
(2011 NIV)

He was using stories people were familiar with to illustrate points, which can be just as effective with fables as actual history.

Luke4
18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”f
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 2 1He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”


If you examine what he is recorded as saying, compared to the actual text, you see that he was being creative and had put together sections from different places in the one book, with parts from other books.
So he wasn't reading, though he had a scroll in front of him.
Jesus was not somehow forced to follow a script, where the verses had power over him, but he had the power to interpret them as he pleased to suite his own internal script.
edit on 20-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 04:44 PM
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Part Two of my above post

Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’c ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

(2011 NIV)

Jesus is pointing out universal truths that can be found in the old law, then goes on to describe how the correct meaning can not be found in the remainder of the surrounding text.

Luke 15:29-31 is part of the parable of the prodigal son, and is maybe a typo in whatever web site you got this list of verses from.

Luke 17:32
Remember Lot’s wife!
(2011 NIV)

Obviously none of the people Jesus was talking to knew Lot's wife, but would have been familiar with the story.
So he really meant, "Remember the story (or fable) of Lot's wife!"

Luke 24
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
(2011 NIV)

We don't know what "prophets" he was referring to here, unless it is the "Suffering Servant" story in Isaiah 53, which would cover the "suffering" part.
As for the "Moses" part, Jesus does mention that there was a prophecy that Moses gave that one like him will come that they were to follow.
So it is limited as to what Jesus was saying that there was in the scripture that was relevant.

Luke 24
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

(2011 NIV)

This is the rest of what was specified in the list from the internet, that goes with verses 25-27 above.
Obviously what "had" to happen was what did happen and then could be fit to certain verses in the scripture if you interpret them a certain way.
Everything that happened had to happen, for whatever plan that God had for him, but none of it is so specific or can be taken as a whole in a group of texts, but need to be isolated out of their context and taken by itself as a fragment.

John 5:39-47
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41“I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God ?

45“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

(2011 NIV)

The scriptures themselves don't give eternal life, Jesus does.
Moses really said very little about a messiah other than he was going to speak as God directed.
edit on 20-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 04:58 PM
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graphuto
reply to post by Akragon
 


I don't know about you, but my God is a powerful God. Certainly powerful enough to maintain the integrity of the scriptures.


Lets not make this a "your God vs My God" thing...

Its unfortunate Christianity fails to recognise who the true God of the bible is... which was revealed through his son and no other before...

IF God does not change as the bible states, there can only be one... And the OT God changed on the regular...

Jesus said all the law and prophets hang on two laws... Those laws have always been...

they're universal, unchanging... and always truth

The God of the OT can not hold up to that same scrutiny




posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by graphuto
 

. . . He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.”
Part Three of my response to this post.

You may want to see if you can find those places, since whoever posted this statement earlier failed to give any citations.

The word "scripture" just means something written, in the Greek of the New Testament.
The word today has a different connotation, but I don't see that as relevant to the conversation.

Luke 11:49
Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'
(2011 NIV)

What is in this translation rendered as "God in his wisdom" is in some other versions given as, "the Wisdom of God".

This could be just a saying or proverb and does not seem to be from the Old Testament.

According to "Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament", by G. Beale, it is really a reference to Jesus himself as the Wisdom of God, and he is the actual source of this saying.
edit on 20-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I'm sorry but we use Bible to interpret Bible.

You seem to only recognize 4 books of the 66. Where in these 4 books does it say that God never changes, and how does this stack up with your claim that the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT?

In what way does He change? Why do we have a problem with the OT God? Because he is jealous and angry that his creation spites him? The last time I checked, righteous jealousy and anger are NOT sins.
edit on 20-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I appreciate your detailed response, but fail to see how it relates.

Do YOU believe that Jesus was God made flesh, and that he died for our sins, and was resurrected 3 days later?



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by usertwelve
 


We only have that ability by way of the Holy Spirit, which one can't have if they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 06:08 PM
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graphuto
reply to post by Akragon
 


I'm sorry but we use Bible to interpret Bible.

You seem to only recognize 4 books of the 66. Where in these 4 books does it say that God never changes, and how does this stack up with your claim that the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT?

In what way does He change?
edit on 20-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)


technically I only recognise 4 books as containing "the word of God"

but secondary to that comes those who actually knew Jesus... books that actually do contain his teachings

such as James...

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

And John...

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

And when one compares such things like "God is love" with the OT writing... one would be hard pressed to find anything relating to Love coming from those books... Though this so called god claims to love, he is actually clueless to the meaning of it... does not practice love in any aspect and in fact is completely against it in most cases.

Then Christians come along and say well this is Gods divine justice... He loves us so much that he commands his followers to rape and pillage... Kill the innocent and other such atrocities...

Again, the OT god does not hold up to any scrutiny...

One might reply as I've heard many times before... Who are you to judge God?

Simply put... the OT character is not God... so I am free to judge he/she/it as I see fit


In what way does He change? Why do we have a problem with the OT God? Because he is jealous and angry that his creation spites him? The last time I checked, righteous jealousy and anger are NOT sins.


The OT God is an imposter, that's why I have a problem with him...

IF he is All powerful, why does he have such petty humanistic emotions...

Who could God possibly be jealous of?

The OT God is pathetic... confused at times... and is nothing to be worshiped


edit on 20-2-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Show me where God asked his people to just needlessly rape and pillage. He is weak because he has emotions? That's quite an indictment. He wants his creation to love Him, big problem there, huh?
edit on 20-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."


Zechariah 14:1-2

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city

And theres lots more....




posted on Feb, 20 2014 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Partial quote taken from external site :



Let me state that as disturbing as the atheists find the cherry-picked-Bible-pull-quotes, I find it very disturbing that they read these texts and infer rape.

They are inventing the idea of rape and reading it into the text (this is eisegesis and is hermeneutically inappropriate).

Let us consider the facts of the matter:
To begin with, we may note Deuteronomy 20:10 states, "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace."

Assuming that war ensues, once it is over they were to "remain outside the camp seven days; whoever has killed any person, and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. Purify every garment, everything made of leather, everything woven of goats' hair, and everything made of wood" (Numbers 31:19-20).
This ensures the health of soldier and war captives.

In the case of the women mentioned in the texts noted above, if a man was interested in one of them he was to:
Provide her with housing.

Allow her one month to mourn.

Then they may get married.

And if they later divorce, she was to go free and not be mistreated (see Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

No rape at all anywhere. Rather, cleansing after a war, the provision of a home, time to mourn, marriage and if need be, freedom and protection from mistreatment.

Of course, these facts will very likely be completely ignored and followed by various complaints about God commanding war and killing children and cattle, etc., etc., etc.



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