Accepting an afterlife as fact without belief in "God"

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

If there is some spooky other place, and our existence incarnate is either recreation, vacation, school, or whatever away from this other spooky after-life place/existence, then, such a place is full of monsters and sick people to want to come and exist incarnate as all the monsters, victims, poor, abused, diseased, slaves, disabled, frightened, and other classifications of living the lowest common denominators representing a large majority of humanity must endure as their lot in life.

This is interesting coming from you Alice. Chin up girl - we're not as bad as all that. Mankind has it's downside - for sure. But - there is so much about us that is worthy of admiration. Even if it's only our own admiration :-)

Since all any of us can do when talking about an after life is either guess or opine - it's our individual hopes and fears that we each bring to the table

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of Game Over - and I'd be willing to bet that you are too

But, just for the sake of argument, if we do get do overs - would it be something we would even recognize in our present state? Would it be something we could put into words? Everything we know we know based on what we are capable of knowing - even as we are now we don't really see the universe or our existence the way it really is. We see only what we've evolved to perceive it in order to survive and continue on...

So much mystery - but mystery is only what we don't know or understand

I gotta admit - Bardo number 5 does sound a little intimidating...

Or, is it just the standard issue Heaven and Hell after all?

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

So much mystery - but mystery is only what we don't know or understand

I could, so easily, have copied your entire post, Spira, just so that others who might have missed it will read it.....

Anyway - EVERYONE! Read Spira's post!!!

(Applause (from me, who is a skinny little nobody)...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Awesome. Pure gold, that post.

reply to post by wildtimes


A star for being so generous

:-)

I only hope this thread gets more play - I like arguing about things nobody can know for sure

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Me, too. Ditto.

Thanks again. Whether it gets traffic or not, it'll still hang out here for....however long.


To discuss things that know one can ever know.

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by wildtimes

AliceBleachWhiteAs I commented on another thread discussing "Afterlife", I don't see it. If there is some spooky other place, and our existence incarnate is either recreation, vacation, school, or whatever away from this other spooky after-life place/existence, then, such a place is full of monsters and sick people to want to come and exist incarnate as all the monsters, victims, poor, abused, diseased, slaves, disabled, frightened, and other classifications of living the lowest common denominators representing a large majority of humanity must endure as their lot in life. It's pretty sick to volunteer for such degradations and horrors that are the daily lives of many which don't often get much media attention in polite western society.

There is no spooky afterplace; only lost souls stuck in the 4th dimension. Karmic retrobution as was known 100s of years ago (as the indivitual soul progression) is on the wain (why? it did not work). Those individuals that CHOOSE to be set within a quadrant of poverty, occupying those bodies do so because they want ONLY to experience being in a three dimensional form. They know the risks and do not mind they were born into poverty or disease (they do not remember the reason; just as you do not remember why you incarnated and lessons you were to learn). This was always the test/task of your soul to understand it; it is not relegated to the physical but is eternal. Anyone that incarnates on earth is being giving a gift. As Ive said before there is a cue/line of beings a hundred miles in length waiting for this opportunity. The whole point is to come within that understanding of; reaching pure Gnosis/Nirvana (knowledge). There is nowhere else within this universe to do so (the living Library) of all specie of all times created to coexist together.

reply to post by Cuervo


Human are manipulated in a level that have no idea even who GOD is yet... how about afterlife...

But please consider quantum physics, that supports after life and it can also prove it.

www.robertlanza.com...

I will close my message with the 10 commands from Solonos and they are unknown... You only know the 10 commands from jewish beliefs.


1st) Trust the good characters of humans more than the "promises" that human gives u.

2nd) Do not lie

3rd) do good things in your lives.

4th) Do not rush to make new friends, but do not abandon them when you do.

5th) Learn to tame and understand your commands, before you even give them into others.

6th) When you advice someone or you ask for advice, always accept or give the one that is useful, not the one that makes you feel happy.

7) Let your conciseness be your supreme commander of your logic.

8) Do not relate with human that do evil things.

9) Honor the gods.

10) Consider your parents.

reply to post by wildtimes

Believing afterlife as a fact??? Without including God..
Its the same as believing existence of angels but rejecting devils/satan/demons.

Its a belief of convenience that validates a certain position that one holds.

How do you explain afterlife and include evolution in it too?
If you can't then the other options is that we are created and that brings God/Creator into the equation.

If you believe in karma then there has to be an outside higher intelligence that understands it and has designed it that way.

logical7
If you believe in karma then there has to be an outside higher intelligence that understands it and has designed it that way.

No there doesn't.

There CAN be a higher intelligence. But there also could not be. (I happen to believe there is.) But it's not necessary for there to be a god in order for there to be Karma or an afterlife. You assume an afterlife of heaven/hell because that's your indoctrination. Your muslim heaven/hell version of an afterlife (and my Christian version) would require a god. But just a general 'afterlife' doesn't. It actually is science ... Life = energy. Energy doesn't 'die' .. it just changes form. Therefore, the energy that animates human bodies and thinking and conscience won't die at human death but instead will change. That's 'afterlife'. Same with Karma. It's Newtonian science ... cause and effect. That doesn't require a 'god' to believe in. It requires science. (which you and I believe God is the author of .. but others do not).

reply to post by logical7

Believing afterlife as a fact??? Without including God..

Yes, you got it.

Its the same as believing existence of angels but rejecting devils/satan/demons.

Right! See how I do that? I've had experience with angels - never with 'dark things'. Maybe I'm charmed.

Its a belief of convenience that validates a certain position that one holds.

Same as any religion, political stance, philosophy, or worldview - if I don't "look" at demons/satan/devils, they don't exist! Quantum Theory, you know. I've never been bothered by "demons" - although I have had my attention brought to the presence of discarnate spirits - ghosts. Others who reside beyond the veil.

How do you explain afterlife and include evolution in it too?

Evolution hasn't got the silghtest thing to do with 'afterlife' - it has to do with offspring slowly acquiring/losing some traits.

If you can't...

But I can. And I just did.

...then the other options is that we are created and that brings God/Creator into the equation.

I'm not saying there is or is not "God/Creator", because I don't know... And in truth, neither do you. You "believe" there is. You don't "know."


If there is a "creator" - then I'm quite content to consider the whole universe as a "perpetual motion machine" - - that God/Creator launched, once, and it took off from there, in perpetuity - a self-sustaining system. (Actually, the universe is working toward an "end" as far as physicists can tell SO FAR. We have no idea where we fit into it, but we're obviously not much of a "force to be reckoned with" in terms of the vast power of the universe.) It's perfect. We haven't mastered building one yet, but it's been attempted for eons.

As Tesla said:

" One day man will connect his apparatus to the very wheelwork of the universe [...] and the very forces that motivate the planets in their orbits and cause them to rotate will rotate his own machinery. ”
—Nikola Tesla

wiki Perpetual Motion

If you believe in karma then there has to be an outside higher intelligence that understands it and has designed it that way.

That's what sk0rp said - and I disagreed with him, too.
The Buddhists do just fine with karma/reincarnation without a "Creator". It just is.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Do you think that if karma is justice then an outside judge is required or tell me how you explain it...
I hope you get what I am asking..

reply to post by logical7


I know you're not asking me, but...

I think the "judge" is within all of us - and our deepest self "knows" what was positive or negative in our actions. Therefore, when a person dies, their own ideas of how they lived are what they will find.

Again: The Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Read it. Then you'll start to understand how all of it ties into ancient Gnostic religions - we are all sparks of the Divine, we all live eternally. As parts of the Divine, we are all capable of "knowing" what we 'deserve' and that decides where you 'find yourself' during the "Transference."

The Tibetan Book of the Dead can be quite difficult to read and understand since it was written for a different audience. However, we offer video broadcasts of readings of the book that include insightful discussions of its contents within the context of the Summum philosophy, the Summum rites of Modern Mummification, and what Summum terms as "Transference." Transference is that period of transition between one life and the next that occurs just before, during, and after death. The video discussions greatly help convey the intent and meaning of the book since they are in terms more easily understood by the western world.

In this context, as a staunch Abrahamic believer, the "Western World" includes you.

reply to post by wildtimes


You cannot throw quantum theory In a philosophical discussion.
Do you think you don't exist if a woman in Africa does not think of you?
Everything exists with its opposite. Except the One who created it all that way.
If there are only angels then evil things should not happen. The balance then should tilt towards good but there appears a counter force to good. How you explain that?

logical7
Do you think that if karma is justice then an outside judge is required or tell me how you explain it...
I hope you get what I am asking..

You call Karma 'justice'.
Those who don't believe in a God, but believe in Karma, see it as an energy balance.

You and I believe in a God. We believe in justice.
Being a Christian, I am more mercy orientated than you are.
You and I would see Karma as 'justice'. I also see it as a teaching tool by God.
But those who don't believe in God see it purely on a Newtonian level .... energy balancing itself out.
There would be no 'justice' or mediator involved.

logical7
You cannot throw quantum theory In a philosophical discussion.

Philosophical discussions and quantum theory can go hand in hand.
Science talks about mult-verses and other dimensions. So does the afterlife.
William Bray NDE Survivor - Scientist

reply to post by wildtimes


So we have an inbuilt moral template. Wouldn't it require an outside intelligence to make it?
The alternative is that it just happened by itself,which is absurd

FlyersFan

logical7
Do you think that if karma is justice then an outside judge is required or tell me how you explain it...
I hope you get what I am asking..

You call Karma 'justice'.
Those who don't believe in a God, but believe in Karma, see it as an energy balance.

You and I believe in a God. We believe in justice.
Being a Christian, I am more mercy orientated than you are.
You and I would see Karma as 'justice'. I also see it as a teaching tool by God.
But those who don't believe in God see it purely on a Newtonian level .... energy balancing itself out.
There would be no 'justice' or mediator involved.

Just a little problem. What kind of energy gets imbalanced when one person Transgresses towards another?
Is it some kind of pseudoscience energy of good and bad?


Also another question.
Will a snake get hit by karma because it ate lot of rats?
Will all meat eaters Including us pay the price of it by being born as cattles for slaughter?

reply to post by logical7

You cannot throw quantum theory In a philosophical discussion.

Of course I can! Many, many people have.

Do you think you don't exist if a woman in Africa does not think of you?

I am not an angel or demon, nor am I a wave or particle. Do you understand the double slit experiment?

Quantum theory is, perhaps/probably, the closest we have come to actually understanding how the universe works. It's very compatible with philosophy AND with science - it bridges the chasm between 'religion/"para"normal' and 'science', as a matter of fact. (Even though I was bringing it up to be 'cheeky' in my previous post, it certainly can be - and has been - and does apply to 'spirit phenomena.'

reply to post by logical7

So we have an inbuilt moral template. Wouldn't it require an outside intelligence to make it?

You keep getting hung up on this "maker" idea. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience. Some say that we - collectlvely, ARE "GOD". Eternal, cyclical, manifesting and existing in various dimensions, moving back and forth, here and there; a countless number of "I"s - individuals - that have existed forever, and will continue to exist, FOREVER.

Our 'conscience' is the inbuilt moral template - it is not 'part' of the brain; it is what makes us human. Science has dissected the brain looking for the 'seat of consciousness' - and it is not found in ANY specific part of the brain. But certainly it exists.

Do you keep up with the modern efforts to 'identify' mind/brain/consciousness, to 'define' them?

I'm guessing not. Or maybe you have, and you just don't get it??

reply to post by logical7

The alternative is that it just happened by itself,which is absurd

People say quantum itself is "absurd" - it's weirdness.
It has to do with probability. EVERYTHING, if it can EVER happen, will EVENTUALLY happen.

FlyersFan

logical7
You cannot throw quantum theory In a philosophical discussion.

Philosophical discussions and quantum theory can go hand in hand.
Science talks about mult-verses and other dimensions. So does the afterlife.
William Bray NDE Survivor - Scientist

Multi-verses idea actually destroy the theory of karma.
If I can make things become non-existent by not believing in them then I can do it for karma too and then no need for reincarnation.

Also Multi-verse theory simply implies that everyone is right. If that's true then karma has no role to play because karma means that there are absolute truths of right and wrong.

So if I believe that I am right to kill anyone who annoys me a lot then its the reality in my own personal universe.
I can only be wrong if that annoying person is also in the same universe and only then karma becomes applicable to me. So it can be either karma or Multi-verses but not both.