Accepting an afterlife as fact without belief in "God"

reply to post by logical7

The balance then should tilt towards good but there appears a counter force to good. How you explain that?

One could attribute the balance to 'maturity' and 'immaturity' of the soul. There will always be 'newbies' who screw up, hurt others; perhaps it's their first time here.

There are other dimensions and locations where souls exist. Earth is not the only inhabited, teeny-tiny planet. The are billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars. Do you think there can't possibly be another 'planet' that harbors human life?

THAT is the absurdity.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

You cannot throw quantum theory In a philosophical discussion.

Of course I can! Many, many people have.

Do you think you don't exist if a woman in Africa does not think of you?

I am not an angel or demon, nor am I a wave or particle. Do you understand the double slit experiment?

Quantum theory is, perhaps/probably, the closest we have come to actually understanding how the universe works. It's very compatible with philosophy AND with science - it bridges the chasm between 'religion/"para"normal' and 'science', as a matter of fact. (Even though I was bringing it up to be 'cheeky' in my previous post, it certainly can be - and has been - and does apply to 'spirit phenomena.'

Let me put out what I understand. We are matter with consciousness and angels/demons can be just energy with consciousness.

But saying that consciousness is some type of energy/matter or that it is subject to the known laws of Science like quantum theory is an assumption.

You do have a bad habit of making a lot of assumptions about me.
Me disagreeing with you does not automatically imply that I am less aware or less capable to understand.
I hope you don't assume that all the time. Makes you appear arrogant.

reply to post by logical7

I hope you don't assume that all the time. Makes you appear arrogant.

I have a hard time understanding your approach to these debates. You consistently make statements reflecting that you think I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm some shallow coed (girl student) who hasn't got a clue about these things (being so depraved by having been born in the USA - just a debaucherous, ignorant, wanton, drunken, bacon-eating female heathen.)

That makes you appear confrontational, and poor at retention and/or actually reading what I type.

I see that you have very rigid, closed-minded beliefs and attitudes. I don't have those. I respond in the manner appropriate to how I am addressed. Arrogant? Maybe, at times. You've absolutely pummeled 'the West', and seem to be oblivious of other mindsets than your own.

And please stop telling me what I "can't" throw in to these debates.
Quantum fits nicely with spirituality/afterlife theories. A vengeful, punitive "GOD person" does not.

reply to post by logical7

But saying that consciousness is some type of energy/matter or that it is subject to the known laws of Science like quantum theory is an assumption.

You do have a bad habit of making a lot of assumptions about me.

In my opinion, EVERY 'organized religious dogma/perspective' (including yours) is by its very nature an ASSUMPTION.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

The balance then should tilt towards good but there appears a counter force to good. How you explain that?

One could attribute the balance to 'maturity' and 'immaturity' of the soul. There will always be 'newbies' who screw up, hurt others; perhaps it's their first time here.

There are other dimensions and locations where souls exist. Earth is not the only inhabited, teeny-tiny planet. The are billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars. Do you think there can't possibly be another 'planet' that harbors human life?

THAT is the absurdity.

So by your own beliefs you should refrain from judging and criticizing anyone who is doing evil be it evangelical psychos or exploding terrorists as they may just be newbies. Maybe you were like them a few tens of reincarnations ago..

The rest of your post is not related and kind of a strawman. I never said that life cannot be there somewhere.

Anyone who claims that something is not possible with Complete certainty has strayed far away from rationality.


My point was that if there are unseen good and powerful than humans angels then they should tilt the balance towards good unless there are also bad unseen powers. The other possibility to explain your stand is that the newbie evil doing souls overpower the angels by sheer number.

You are presenting explanations to justify your claim that there are no evil powers.
Why do you want that it is that way?

reply to post by wildtimes

Quantum fits nicely with spirituality/afterlife theories.

Oh is that the criteria for finding the truth?
Well then who am I to question it. Shame on me. LOL.
A materialistic observation based and scientific attempt to explain the immaterial, unseen and it must be that way because it fits!!!

Sorry but I would need proof before I accept that consciousness is subject to quantum theory in other words that it is some energy or matter.

reply to post by logical7

You are presenting explanations to justify your claim that there are no evil powers.
Why do you want that it is that way?

I said I have not encountered any, like others here have described. Although, I suppose that when - in my 20s - 30 years ago, actually - I had terrible anxiety attacks that somehow I would harm myself, it could be looked at as a 'demon' in my mind. The fear would paralyze me, literally - I'd have to sit on a chair or sofa until it passed. Then one day I was driving, feeling an attack, and I felt a hand on my shoulder, a reassuring, comforting force that reassured me that "I didn't want to die, and everything would be okay."

By the time I got home, I was crying, and grabbed my cat and kissed her, so relieved to know that I was safe.

After that, I got into therapy (again). I learned how to control the 'demon' (my therapist called it a 'monster' - wanted me to 'objectify' the feeling; give a name to the attack). As I learned to control it, what she taught me helped.

Think of a spiral (one-dimensional), with a line moving from the center point outward. As one progresses, one finds the 'monster's' presence less strong, and the episodes (visits?) fewer and farther between....
until eventually it stops happening.

So - was that "demon possession"? Or was it anxiety - a mental condition - that the angels assured me was a figment of my imagination? (Which it was - though subjectively it was torture.)

I did not say, and clearly do not believe there is "no evil" in the world. There certainly is.

And yes, I am free to 'make judgments' of those who harm others, whether physically, emotionally, or mentally. It's wrong, and I see that it's wrong. If those are "newbies", then they will reap what they sow. Just like Jesus is supposed to have said: "Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do."

Does this mean you are warming up to the idea of reincarnation?

Also, I was just going to give you a resource:
Evan Harris Walker,
The Physics of Consciousness: The Quantum Mind and the Meaning of Life

I read it about 4 years ago...and have been trying to wrap my grey matter around 'quantum' ever since. I'm still learning about it, but starting to get the idea better.

For decades, neuroscientists, psychologists, and an army of brain researchers have been struggling, in vain, to explain the phenomenon of consciousness. Now there is a clear trail to the answer, and it leads through the dense jungle of quantum physics, Zen, and subjective experience, and arrives at an unexpected destination.In this tour-de-force of scientific investigation, Evan Harris Walker, a pioneer in the science of consciousness, describes the outcome of his fifty-year search for the true nature of reality. Drawing on a deep knowledge of quantum physics and Zen philosophy, Walker shows how the operation of bizarre yet actual properties of elementary particles support a new and exciting theory of reality, based on the principles of quantum physics; a theory that answers questions such as “What is the nature of consciousness, of will?” “What is the source of material reality?” and “What is God?” Clearly written in non-technical, lyrical prose, The Physics of Consciousness is more than just the explanation of a science—it is a new vision of life.

Evan Harris Walker, founder of the Walker Cancer Institute, has made major scientific contributions in astronomy, astrophysics, physics, neurophysiology, psychology, and medicine. Since he received his Ph.D. in physics from the University of Maryland in 1964, he has published more than a hundred papers in scientific journals and holds a dozen patents. He lives in Aberdeen, Maryland.

He has since died.
Unfortunately.

reply to post by logical7

Sorry but I would need proof before I accept that consciousness is subject to quantum theory in other words that it is some energy or matter.

Okay, so now you have a resource besides all the others out there -

But you accept Mohammed's musings as "proof" - right?

reply to post by logical7

Those are questions for those who believe in Karma ... I"m not sold on it.

logical7
Multi-verses idea actually destroy the theory of karma. If I can make things become non-existent by not believing in them then I can do it for karma too and then no need for reincarnation.

I don't think you understand what multi-verse means. Different universes and different dimensions ... all on their own plane and own frequency. Multi-verse doesn't mean 'making things non-existent by not believing in them'.

Also Multi-verse theory simply implies that everyone is right.

In all my readings of multi-verse, I've never heard anywhere of 'everyone is right' in reference to it.
Not once. I don't know where you got that from. You'll have to share a link or something.
I can't address that since I've never ever heard of that.


If anything, karma talks about positive and negative vibrational energy ... and multiverses talk about vibrational energy. Theoretical physics is telling us that there are at least 11 dimensions and we exist in only one of them. So there are plenty of other dimensions for people to 'move on' to when done here. Perhaps bad Karma keeps our frequency at this one here in this dimension so that holds us back from 'moving on' and we reincarnate. Or sins/bad karma make our frequency low and so we 'move on' to a lower vibrational dimension after death (hell). Or our faith/good works make our frequency higher and so we 'move on' to a higher vibrational dimension after death (heaven). etc etc ...

logical7
I would need proof before I accept that consciousness is subject to quantum theory in other words that it is some energy or matter.

We are energy. Our soul is. It's us. It doesn't die. It changes form.
Other dimensions vibrate at different frequencies.
When our bodies die, our soul (which is energy) moves on to the dimension that matches it's vibrational frequency.

ETA .. I"m not going to provide a pile of links showing that we have a vibration level and that the multiverses vibrate at their own frequencies etc etc ... it's all out there and easily found. (I have to go get ready for a snow storm and I have to take care of a very sick dog ... sorry).

reply to post by FlyersFan

Perhaps bad Karma keeps our frequency at this one here in this dimension so that holds us back from 'moving on' and we reincarnate. Or sins/bad karma make our frequency low and so we 'move on' to a lower vibrational dimension after death (hell). Or our faith/good works make our frequency higher and so we 'move on' to a higher vibrational dimension after death (heaven). etc etc ...

I really like these ideas!

Thanks. Yes, moving to a 'higher' or 'lower' dimension would seem to fit with hell/heaven...etc...

But, none of it is 'forever' - we are forever, but where we go and how long we stay and what we do is fluid. Eternally.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Sorry about your dog and the snow: we had the snow last week.

Anyway, when you have a chance, please could you give me your impression of this experience (I c/p from my edit above):

I said I have not encountered any [evil beings], like others here have described. Although, I suppose that when - in my 20s - 30 years ago, actually - I had terrible anxiety attacks that somehow I would harm myself, it could be looked at as a 'demon' in my mind. The fear would paralyze me, literally - I'd have to sit on a chair or sofa until it passed. Then one day I was driving, feeling an attack, and I felt a hand on my shoulder, a reassuring, comforting force that reassured me that "You know you don't want to die, and so of course you won't do any harm to yourself. Everything will be okay."

By the time I got home, I was crying, and grabbed my cat and kissed her, so relieved to know that I was safe.

After that, I got into therapy (again). I learned how to control the 'demon' (my therapist called it a 'monster' - wanted me to 'objectify' the feeling; give a name to the attack). As I learned to control it, what she taught me helped.

Think of a spiral (one-dimensional), with a line moving from the center point outward. As one progresses, one finds the 'monster's' presence less strong, and the episodes (visits?) fewer and farther between....
until eventually it stops happening.

So - was that "demon possession"? Or was it anxiety - a mental condition - that the angels assured me was a figment of my imagination? (Which it was - though subjectively it was torture.)

FlyersFan

logical7
I would need proof before I accept that consciousness is subject to quantum theory in other words that it is some energy or matter.

We are energy. Our soul is. It's us. It doesn't die. It changes form.
Other dimensions vibrate at different frequencies.
When our bodies die, our soul (which is energy) moves on to the dimension that matches it's vibrational frequency.

ETA .. I"m not going to provide a pile of links showing that we have a vibration level and that the multiverses vibrate at their own frequencies etc etc ... it's all out there and easily found. (I have to go get ready for a snow storm and I have to take care of a very sick dog ... sorry).

edit on 2/11/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

If soul is energy then it should be detected. Using words like, vibrational energy, negative energy etc does not make it scientific, maybe pseudoscientific.
I do not think that soul is a part of material universe in any way.

It's all about how you think. If you cannot imagine that there can be something outside the universe that can affect it but is not a part of it then you try to explain soul as energy which is not observed to be true.

nd yes, I am free to 'make judgments' of those who harm others, whether physically, emotionally, or mentally. It's wrong, and I see that it's wrong. If those are "newbies", then they will reap what they sow. Just like Jesus is supposed to have said: "Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do." 

Does this mean you are warming up to the idea of reincarnation? 

reply to post by wildtimes

I am merely making the observation that you do not implement your own beliefs in your life otherwise you wouldn't be judgemental. It seems wrong to criticize a newbie soul for the harm it is causing. It would be like being angry on a baby who broke a vase. Would you make a thread of how bad babies are because they break things!!!!

Maybe you don't have patience to let karma teach all the bad people till they become better.
You need not worry. Unless you do not really believe that karma can do it or you want it to happen faster than its meant to be.

I am just entertaining your ideas not agreeing with them.

You when observed through your own beliefs appear as a college graduate criticizing and judging kids in primary school as bad because they are not as wise as your graduated soul.


Seems interesting right?

logical7
If soul is energy then it should be detected.

200 years ago, doctors and scientists said that if germs existed they'd be able to see them. And since they couldn't see them, they thought they must not have existed. There is outside evidence that the soul is energy ... we don't have direct evidence because we dont have the ability to see it yet. But the outside evidence points in that direction ... (read on)

"Everything is energy and that's all there is to it. Match the frequency of the reality you want and you cannot help but get that reality. It can be no other way. This is not philosophy. This is physics" Albert Einstein

Physics Forum - The Frequency of the human body
Humans have a vibration frequency while alive. After death, the frequency departs. We know that energy doesn't die. Therefore, the energy is the soul and it leaves the dead body.

Everything in Life is a Vibration

The Power of Personal Vibration

Word Press - Your Vibration is The Divine Signature on Your Soul

The higher your vibration the more light you hold, the faster your light particles vibrate, the higher your consciousness and the stronger you are connected to your soul and God self.

When your vibration is low, your light particles are vibrating slowly and become condensed. Your energy literally feels heavy because you are not in alignment with your soul or divine self and are mostly operating from your lower self or ego.

Distorted beliefs, fear, anger, resentment, blame, guilt, jealousy, judgment, shame, addiction, unforgiveness, conditional love, lack of self worth, greed, separation consciousness and poor health keep you in very dense low vibrating energy.

And there is no proof that the soul has weight ..

Snopes - Soul has Weight

wildtimes
So - was that "demon possession"? Or was it anxiety -

I have no idea. Could be either. Sometimes people call mental health issues (and we all get them) 'demonic'. And sometimes people call the demonic - 'mental health issues'. Treating from both aspects is what I feel is best ... assume it's both. That way you can't miss.

Different demons have different 'personalities' and different levels of energy. The ones I encountered in Japan were pure hate and it was all directed towards me, but they couldn't act on it. The one I felt here a few months back was so evil and deadly that it actually froze me to my soul. Comparing the ones I ran into in Japan with the one I encountered a few months ago was like night and day ... that's how much worse the one I encountered a few months ago was. I was even told it's name ... 'The Great Equalizer'. I swear to you it froze my soul ... that's how frightening it was. I thought the ones in Japan were the most evil things possible .. until 'The Great Equalizer' showed up. It only showed up once ... but that was enough. I now understand better when the Christian church says that there is a hierarchy of angels .. both the angels in heaven and the fallen angels (demons). It's very real.

Who 'the Great Equalizer' is ?? I can't imagine anything more dark or evil or frightening. I don't think it was 'the devil' ... but maybe death encompassed in a single being. I don't know. There is a clue in the name. But I don't even want to think about the name ... I don't want to attract it to come back.

How'd I find out the name? I JUST KNEW IT. Instantly.


You can tell the demons are separate entities. At least the ones I've encountered could be discerned that way. Their effects can be felt inside the body and soul. Like the evil 'Great Equalizer' that literally froze my soul like a ice lightening bolt when it showed up.

Anyways .. that's my experience. I don't know if it speaks to your situation or not ...

Double post ...

reply to post by logical7

You when observed through your own beliefs appear as a college graduate criticizing and judging kids in primary school as bad because they are not as wise as your graduated soul.

That's ridiculous.
I've worked with kids - without shaming or scaring them - all of my life. No one expects a baby or small child to have self-regulation.

You're trying to "paint me" falsely again, to turn this into some sort of semantics game or attack on me, as usual; finding fault with me no matter what I say. What I have to say has been hard-won, and taken a long time. But you would begrudge me and attempt to misrepresent me - belittle and humiliate me - because.....

why?

I'm from the West.
I'm not religious.
I am not convinced there is a "God".
I don't believe Muhammed knew any better than I do.
I'm a woman.
You don't agree with me.


(Select as many as apply).
Whatever you come up with - be honest about it.
Making up 'attributes' and putting them on me just to suit your mood and provide yourself with a fictitious version of me to slam on the boards isn't going to wash anymore. Just disagree and move on. Provide actual sources, stop making up things about me and spreading it on ATS. That is passive-aggressive bull#.

I ask people questions; when I see someone harming another person, I speak up. You may not know who Dr Martin Luther King, Jr is - but one of his famous quotes is this:

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”
― Martin Luther King Jr., I Have a Dream: Writings and Speeches That Changed the World

That means speaking up. Millions of children are harmed by religious shame and fear of eternal punishment. Millions of youths and adults are browbeaten and told they are worthless sinners. In my opinion and my own personal experience, that is wrong. What good are you doing on here? Are you HELPING to create peace on Earth? To cherish every person's right to life, liberty, happiness, and ability to think and criticize existing systems/beliefs? No. You don't want people to be given freedom to think critically. It's a real shame.


You are crusading to Vilify the West and everything and everyone who is non-Muslim. You don't know what you're talking about when you attempt to 'describe me', because you don't pay attention; ridiculing me for being educated and older than you is asinine. But then again, you ridicule your own family and friends - tell them they are wrong and not 'living correctly, as you've often stated.

You think "reincarnation" is somehow a 'free pass' - too generous ---- when it isn't - it's like a prison sentence. Maybe someday, when you are twice your current age, you won't be so hell-bent on condemning everything outside of your little world, and won't think of 'reincarnation' as a 'get out of jail free' card. You won't want people to burn in hell, either. Or maybe not. When I was your age, I thought reincarnation sounded 'good' - the older I get, the more suffering I see and endure, the less I think that.

So there.

reply to post by logical7

I am merely making the observation that you do not implement your own beliefs in your life otherwise you wouldn't be judgemental. It seems wrong to criticize a newbie soul for the harm it is causing.

Those "newbies" are here to LEARN. We help each other to LEARN. Every relationship we have is a potential "learning" experience.

Parents teach their children. Children teach their parents, other children and non-related adults. Adults learn from children and other adults.
It's not as if 'newly arrived' souls on Earth live in a vacuum with no guidance whatsoever.

Again, ridiculous assertion.
*eyeroll*

No one said there should be total anarchy and allowance for people to harm others. We are social animals - we need each other, and we help each other figure things out (whether we are the protagonist or the hero - we are helping each other to experience ALL that life on this plane has to teach us).