Is caseless shotgun ammunition possible

Hi all,
Is the development and manufacturing of caseless shotgun ammunition possible with today's level of weapon and ammunition development/manufacturing technology?
I realize that it wouldn't be easy to manufacture caseless birdshot/buckshot rounds because you'd need to have some some kind of resin block to hold the birdshot/buckshot together until it's fired but caseless deer slug/sabot slugs would be easier to manufacture because it's one relatively large solid projectile not multiple small projectiles.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


It would have to have a shell or casing. Why do you think we need such a thing?

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


yes - it is possible , but :

it would not fire from conventional shotguns

it would be far more expensive

Didn't the old style blunderbus shotguns do the caseless thing?

Thought they used to put a charge in and then just pour just about anything to be used as shot down the barrel..nails, tacks, ball bearings, even gravel if they had to.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


It would also be a step back in tech. Why not just by a black powder gun OP? They had ones where the cap and load was already packaged. You just popped them in and dropped the ball in.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


Hmm the only reason I could think that you would want it caseless, is if you don't want anyone to find the cases...

Trying to hide something OP?

I was wondering about this for an end of industry situation. You would need a break action for sure. There's too much to snag a paper casing on a pump action (turning it into a single shot of course).
A Black powder is ideal for where my mind is but I like to play "what if". you'd probably need a ramrod swab thing, like a cannon has, to get all the crap out of your barrel every time. You would probably also need at least the base of a shell to hold your primer in just the right spot.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


Fairly ancient tech., really - it was called ' grapeshot ' in the old days.

This was a muzzle-loaded technique of loading a cannon with grape-sized iron balls ( or nails, glass, acorns, whatever ), instead of the usual full-bore cannonball...

Used for close-in defense, generally. Of particular interest may be the ' deck guns ' which were designed to repel boarders from ships. These were often very small ( not much bigger than a modern shotgun, in some cases ).

I'm new ( again, after some year's absence ) and haven't figured out how to do stuff, sorry ; just google ' grapeshot' for a start on ' caseless shotgun ammo'.

Sure it's possible... They called them Muskets and not everything had a ball atop the wadding back when they were combat arms, not novelties or special designations for hunting season.

If we're to making our own 'scatter gun' rounds tho? We may as well be throwing sticks and stones, as the opposition will surely still have M-16's with 30rd magazines and steel core rounds to shoot back with.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


in concept,yes,maybe,sorta...I recall reading years ago,I think it was HK,developed a bullet that had the powder charge built into it.Think of a metal bottle rocket design.Not sure what or how it ignited,maybe piezo electric.No shell casing to eject,as the whole thing shot out,but the exhuast fouled the barrel very quickly.I also recall the navy seals working on a "silent shotgun" shell.An all metal casing that would fire the shot,but the "charge" was held in the shell casing.Had trouble with the cases splitting tho

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


I believe that HK caseless was the G11, which was replaced by the more conventional G36.

Although caseless ammo design might seem an archaic design, it offers many benefits, namely lighter ammunition, as well as lower production cost. A lighter weight ammo would allow the operator to carry more ammo with much less weight. Brass shells used in conventional ammo is expensive to produce and needs to be very precision made.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


I think they used to call it a blunderbuss, it was inaccurate and loading it was a PITA.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


I guess I would need a quick explanation of the technology. I.e. what is meant by case-less?

Muzzle loaders and the like are case-less. It does work. However the idea of the cartridge or shotgun shell is much handier. That is why we use it to a much greater extent.

reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic


Why is this any more difficult than any other caseless projectile? Obviously caseless rounds are not meant to be fired from anything other than a weapon designed to fire them. I see absolutely no reason why a weapon designed to fire caseless shotgun rounds could not fire them.

You can not fire caseless ammo in anything other than a weapon designed to fire them. There are Caseless 40mm grenade rounds a shotgun round would be no different.

Everybody is talking about the muzzleloading angle... I was picturing something closer to the paper cartridges I've seen (never shot one).

Here's something cool that wiki said:
Paper shotshells[edit]
Paper shotshells, consisting of a paper body with a brass base and rim, have continued to be made and used many years after their general replacement with plastic shotshells. The only areas where these are still used in fairly large numbers, though, are in extremely cold areas where plastic shells often split when fired at -40 degree C temperatures (-40F), and when handloading very low pressure rounds for extremely old shotguns. Paper shotshells consist of a coiled paper tube, placed in a brass base, with the web of the case made of compressed paper pulp. These cartridges are sturdy enough to be reloaded many times.[4][13]

I am damn doing this.

So, essentially, I think I'm inspired by a question you did not ask

The G11 was interesting and I would love to see that tech in something that can take the fouling a little better. AK? That would be cool.
I've never touched one of those rounds, but I've always wondered what would keep you from having a magazine full of gunpowder chunks and powder. It seems very fragile in my imagination and I'm having trouble seeing how you would make truly caseless sturdy enough for rough handling.

I sell art supplies. Lots of things I sell are basically a powder that has been compressed into a shape and meant to be carried around. They are all extremely fragile. A box full of colored chalk pastels can quickly become a box of pastels covered in a sort of grey dust. This dust is all the colors mixed together.
If these were caseless ammunition you would have an inconsistent load very quickly and that powder would get on everything.
You could never smoke a cigar again because you would be flammable. And sulphury. Like the Devil.

I too am wondering why off topic replys concerning muzzle loading weapons are permeating this thread ????????

caseless ammunition technologies are a well defined term - that people should grasp before replying

reply to post by GrislyAddams


the issue of proppelant mechanical stability was addressed - at least for the G11 by supplying sealed 50r ammo packs - they [ H&k spent a lot of time on the binding agent - it was not just compressed powder - but the binding agent had to be totally combustible too - and leave no fouling residude

for shotguns - an easier answer would be combustible case tech - as used in some tank rifles , naval guns and field artillery

Thank you for that. Sealed case packs makes sense.
I'm all about this paper thing now, though. I sell art supplies. Paper being a huge segment of that. Surely something I have laying around is going to be better than what a gold panner in the yukon could come up with.

blkcwbyhat
reply to post by Conspiracyskeptic

 

in concept,yes,maybe,sorta...I recall reading years ago,I think it was HK,developed a bullet that had the powder charge built into it.

That would be the GyroJet.

Behold.

The gyrojet is interesting. I would love to see that in a rifle. And accurate. And reliable. Which means that that probably exists somewhere. Area 37 most likely.
But it's not caseless at all. In fact, it has one of the most complicated cases ever devised.