Pelosi: NSA Leaker Snowden Not Traitor But 'Should Face the Music'...What Music Nancy?

opethPA

If he effects some actual change then that should be taken into account when he is eventually caught and result in a lesser or no sentence at all.
If he uses this info to benefit himself or it turns out to be an op for some other country or something less noble then he should face the full measure of the law.

As it stand currently I think we need to see the end game before passing judgement about this story.

So..................what if he ends up effecting positive change for the U.S. through the acts of benefiting himself through being an operative of a foreign country? Say England for example. An American ally.

Here's the thing, the hierarchy in America is in the wrong. We all know this. The example I just stated falls under the category of the ends justifying the means.

On top of that, what Snowden did may not be unprecedented, but the magnitude and scope of what he did is. Since that is unprecedented there can be no foreseeable end game other than the one that popular opinion makes.

Therefore................judge away. The future of Snowden depends on it.

All well and good..people want to anoint him a hero and maybe that is what he turns out to be in the end but to do so now just shows the separation I stated between people that worked in that world and people that haven't.

If he turns out to be an operative for any other nation then he is guilty of treason and should face the full weight of the law when he is eventually caught. I personally do not believe he is an operative.

He worked for the CIA/NSA and failed out of Special Forces school. It's not like this is some kid just starting out in that world unfamiliar with the handling of classified information. He knew the minute he transported 1 byte of classified information incorrectly that he was opening up a world of hurt on himself. From the minute you get a Secret clearance it is clearly stated who you can trade with, how that info can be stored, transported, disposed of, so on. As you get above that the regulations around classified info become even more clearly defined.

All that being said , if this plays out the way it has so far, he knew all the above and was willing to act regardless of what the justified response would be. If that holds true through the story and he changes anything then he should be found guilty of the multiple rules, laws, regulations and contracts he broke and be given a pardon for acting in the best interest of the American people.

reply to post by opethPA


Great points....

The facts as we know them is that he did not sell the information.

I understand he violated his oath. He should be judged by the people.

I am not sure what to make of Mr. Snowden. I do however know all about Nancy Pelosi.

When is this Cow going to realise that the list of people who ARE traitors and ARE still in government ARE yet to face the music.

Someone needs to slap some sense into it's head - seriously.

[no offence to Cows btw]

Having followed Snowden story with some interest, the following can be stated:

Where was Pelosi, when Snowden was being called a traitor? Where was she when he was running from the USA, and where was she when he was vetted, and given the security clearance to have access to all of that information? Where was the federal government?

The facts of the case are very simple, Snowden, is not a traitor. He is a criminal, he did break the law and violated the laws on revealing secret information to the public. For that he should be punished for and face a public trial, where all of the evidence is out in the open for the public and a jury to decide on his guilt or innocence. Not the congress, not the executive branch, nor the federal government, save the judicial branch of the government, for that is their mandate and obligation.

There are rules when handling classified information, including in the small print, that revealing it is punishable by a fine and imprisonment. You just do not do it, and now that it is done, the one thing that all of the federal government is worried about is how much did he reveal to the Russians and the Chinese governments, to get his visa and escape from the USA. How much information has been passed to them and ultimately what kind of damage will it do to the USA. Do not think for a moment that the Russians have not been looking through all of that information, as they have, in exchange for him having asylum in Russia, as their guest.

Ultimately, he is a pawn and when it is convenient, the Russians, will hand him back over to the USA in exchange for something else, and then he will be in a whole world of trouble by the legal system.

reply to post by whyamIhere


What difference does it make, seriously?

These scumbag politicians can say and do whatever they want with certainty of impunity. What is going to happen? Is the other equally corrupt party going to make the cable news rounds admonishing them? Yeah that will show them. Is she going to, in the odd chance, be voted out office with a pension and guaranteed lobbying position? Oh yeah feel it. Another feckless hearing? Get em Issa.

These scumbags act with impunity because they have it. Those tasked with holding our officials accountable have failed. The first line of defense, the other party, is one in the same. And the next, the oath keepers, hello oath keepers do you exist outside the binary codes of chat rooms?

That's why we're here and nothing will change. The world burns with passion and fire for justice. The streets are on fire. And here in the "home of the brave" our nation is already gone without even a whimper.

In all fairness, I'm not saying Eric Holder is a traitor, I'm saying he broke the law and needs to face the music. See, it works both ways.

Are there any politicians on snowden side, did anybody go to the media saying he should be considered a hero for the people.

Im just wondering cause id say tbey probably deserve your votes.

slunteri
reply to post by whyamIhere

 

What difference does it make, seriously?

These scumbag politicians can say and do whatever they want with certainty of impunity. What is going to happen? Is the other equally corrupt party going to make the cable news rounds admonishing them? Yeah that will show them. Is she going to, in the odd chance, be voted out office with a pension and guaranteed lobbying position? Oh yeah feel it. Another feckless hearing? Get em Issa.

These scumbags act with impunity because they have it. Those tasked with holding our officials accountable have failed. The first line of defense, the other party, is one in the same. And the next, the oath keepers, hello oath keepers do you exist outside the binary codes of chat rooms?

That's why we're here and nothing will change. The world burns with passion and fire for justice. The streets are on fire. And here in the "home of the brave" our nation is already gone without even a whimper.

edit on 25-1-2014 by slunteri because: (no reason given)

You might be willing to throw in the towel....Sometimes I feel that way.

But I can't...I have skin in the game. To me this Nation is worth saving.

Sad thing is....I agree with every thing you posted.

sdcigarpig
Having followed Snowden story with some interest, the following can be stated:

The facts of the case are very simple, Snowden, is not a traitor. He is a criminal, he did break the law and violated the laws on revealing secret information to the public. For that he should be punished for and face a public trial, where all of the evidence is out in the open for the public and a jury to decide on his guilt or innocence. Not the congress, not the executive branch, nor the federal government, save the judicial branch of the government, for that is their mandate and obligation.

He did not break any 'law' What he did was to expose those who were already breaking the law under their given mandate, that makes anything he did outside the scope of 'classified' You cannot 'classify' something by a nod and a wink when acting illegally.

Do you not even think that this so-called foreign intelligence surveillance court, (FISA and other acronyms) should be brought to book for not acting dilligently? That's a biggy, since all those boyo's are selected by the heads/head of the supreme court, but that is where the permission was given. You see, there is nothing being dealt with in the aftermath so far. Do you see any reporters pursuing these FISA judges? or the guys that got the papers and abused them. All big, big questions that need to be addressed..but nobody's talking.

So, when does Nancy Pelosi get to "face the music" when it come to her treasonous actions? She has done far more to ruin this country than Snowden ever thought of...

reply to post by madmac5150


She was the one that stated... "impeachment was off the table" for George Bush!

If Snowden is not a traitor, than he shouldn't be guilty of any crime! Our government has rigged the books against whistle blowers when it comes to anyone connected to secret operations. The secret FISA court is a prime example! This court approves 99.97% of government request related to government secret operations, even when it goes against constitutional rights of Americans! I think our government officials should be held accountable for establishing such a court. In my opinion, she and everyone in congress who allows a citizen's constitutional rights to be trampled on are the traitors!

"Hey Nancy, isn't it your job to help protect and defend American's constitutional rights?" If you did your job, you and every other congressional representative should be demanding president Obama to pardon Snowden. Snowden is doing more to protect American's constitutional rights than our own congressional representatives.

smurfy
He did not break any 'law' What he did was to expose those who were already breaking the law under their given mandate, that makes anything he did outside the scope of 'classified' You cannot 'classify' something by a nod and a wink when acting illegally.

My guess is you never had your clearance in America or any other country with laws and regulations around classified info. If you did then you would understand what I am saying below.

Contingent on him not being an agent of another country or some other op I don't believe he should be considered a criminal for the content or apparent motivation for what he did.

When you get your first clearance you know exactly how, with who, by what means, when , where , could keep going you can trade Secret or above info. Anything classified as SECRET that he knowingly removed without following the correct procedure is a violation of law and contractual agreement he willingly signed when getting cleared . Considering he had a much higher then SECRET clearance the level to which he broke those things is magnified. Again he worked at the CIA, NSA and failed out of SF school, he knew the risks involved. Regardless of how bad the US Govt hoses people you could easily make a case that he also stole Federal property. Additionally when you get your clearance you are routinely informed of ways to blow the whistle on illegal actions. Running to a foreign press group is not one of those ways.

It also has nothing to do with a "nod and a wink". If he removed properly classified information then it is cut and dried.
I also think , assuming that when is end game plays out it is of a noble cause , that should be reflected in whatever punishment he faces.

He knew the rules going into this and willingly violated them. The motivation for that may make him a hero to some but the methods he used make him a criminal. If it all plays out that way and he acted on the behalf of the American people then I feel a sentence of 1 to 5 years (which is far less then I would have gotten if I did similar things when I was in that world) would be appropriate. If his actions truly make a change in America then I would even say that he should face a suspended sentence or some other punishment that didn't involve jail time. Again not for the content but for everything else he willingly did wrong.

reply to post by opethPA


I was told when getting clearance to keep my mouth shut, but this didn't include hiding blatantly illegal activities by not saying anything. It meant to never divulge classified material. Now if a church full of nuns had been murdered by the CIA, and they recorded it and classified it secret, that information does not fall into the realm of what must be kept secret, not by any means.

Unless your meaning all along was that there is a good ole boys & girls club that exists and that everyone with a clearance goes by the unspoken policy of keeping everything secret, including all kinds of law breaking and whatever..

This is why E. Holder was so mad and looking for Snowden's vetting agency to blame, maybe these vetting agencies do encourage keeping anything and everything a secret., Or in Snowden's case, maybe not.. Now that sounds ridiculous.

reply to post by opethPA

He knew the rules going into this and willingly violated them.

Maybe he did, I would hope he did. At the end of the day, you can argue what he did was some sort of crime all day long but by doing so your are missing the MUCH larger point in the debate.

Your government, my government, our government is collecting data on every single innocent civilian in this country all of the time without probable cause, reasonable suspicion or any reasonable and rational explanation at the cost of our guaranteed Constitutional rights, our privacy and our future.

What the NSA is doing is draconian, illegal and worthy of only a stalinist regime. This is not how America operates, it's not the framework for a free and liberated nation. Having a federal agency collecting all data from cell phones, emails and social media and being able to view any of it at any time is not within the scope of our governments charter, responsibility nor elected duties. It's tyranny, in it's most basic and disgusting form.

You can argue about Snowden all you want but what you can't do is argue your point without acknowledging that our federal government by definition is also criminal. What he was able to share with the American people was that our worst fears are actually realized. All of your emails, phone conversations, text messages and all the rest are intercepted, screened and looked at, domestically, in America with absolutely no probable cause.

Don't apologize for criminal behavior. If you have a problem with what Snowden did, perhaps you should first address the reason why he did it and the fact that all he did was expose gross criminal behavior by the American government.

alienreality
I was told when getting clearance to keep my mouth shut, but this didn't include hiding blatantly illegal activities by not saying

You were also told when you were "told to keep your mouth shut" how to transport, store, trade, divulge classified info.

If you ever had your clearance you wouldn't be making the case he didn't do anything wrong no matter how good/noble his intentions appear to be.

Helious

Maybe he did, I would hope he did. At the end of the day, you can argue what he did was some sort of crime all day long but by doing so your are missing the MUCH larger point in the debate.

Please show me which part of any of my posts were illogical or supporting the Govt?

Was it where i said he should face a substantially reduced sentence if any time at all?
Was it where I said I didn't think he was an op for anyone else?
Maybe it was where I said the Govt is wonderful and never breaks the law.

People should read before getting spun up. Everything I said is accurate. What he did appears to be noble but the way he did it broke laws and regulations. That's all I said and nothing about that can be argued.

Im also not apologizing for anyone because I don't need to. He worked at the CIA then the NSA and tried to make it in SF..he knows what he did was wrong but I think , if it plays out this way, that he is as close to a hero as there is because he is willing to "dive on the grenade" for the better good. If their is another end game then I would look at him differently.

reply to post by opethPA


Hey! Don't get it twisted, I'm not attacking your viewpoint or your post. I'm saying that he blew the whole thing open and if you consider what he did a crime, well...............

If the government is committing crimes on as a large of scale as has been revealed against all Americans, I can't fathom in what reality Snowden would be a criminal. If the federal government didn't want their secrets revealed then perhaps they should not have been grossly violating the law in every way, shape and form.

Outing criminals is not a crime. If the government did not want to lose sensitive data as far as it's spying program is concerned internationally then they should not have been breaking the law and committing crimes against it's own citizens at the same time.

The federal government, the NSA is not the government. The American people are the government. The people is why the NSA has the funding to exist. You don't bite the hand that feeds you and if you do and your Obama, you don't come on national TV and compare the illegal NSA activity to Paul Revere unless your a step away from a telethon.

Helious
Outing criminals is not a crime.

100% agree with this, their should always be a way to blow the whistle.

My own opinion is he did it wrong but that doesn't matter now.
To this point that has always been my argument against Snowden..not what he did but how he did it.

reply to post by Helious


Right...

If the Government had not horribly violated the Constitution in the first place.

There would of been no reason for Snowden to do what he did.

Can anybody say with a straight face that if he told his bosses at the NSA.

They would immediately report the illegal activity that they are doing?

We still would not know the truth if it wasn't for Snowden.

reply to post by whyamIhere


Sigh,
for it is because of her, and those like her, that I find myself actually hoping "Hell" exists...

And that it's got a special place with her name on it.


The audaciousness of these politicians and their stones...it's gotten so absurd it's become comical.
Nothing but a gang of unstable spoiled whiny narcissistic sociopaths with violent tendencies and perversions...

A GANG OF JOFFREYS!!!
*gasp!*

And EVERYBODY HATES JOFFREY

(seriously though, Joffrey is a perfect personification of the State)