Why does someone kill someone?

reply to post by beezzer


Someone blasting loud music that has no regard for anyone else's peace, that might do it... heh

reply to post by DeadSeraph


People have been doing bad things to other people forever. Some people are just plain nasty creatures, some people are genuinely nice. No one can solve or stop violence, because humans are allowed to run around with free will and freedom... In this chaotic experiment, the only thing you can do is place punishments and prohibitions on certain actions, and police society to make sure everyone remains civil toward each other. You are never going to prevent someone with a damaged mind from carrying out some act of violence irrational or not against someone.

reply to post by OrphanApology


Your own link shows 8 mass shootings in the 80's compared to 21 from 2000-2010. Are you telling me the population of the united states more than doubled from 1980 to 2010? It hasn't. from 1980 to 2010, the population of the U.S grew by 87 million people, yet the rate of mass shootings more than doubled.

Your arguments aren't supported by the facts.

ETA: It should also be noted that from 1990-2000 your link shows 23 mass killings. Almost 3 times as high as from 1980-1990, with even less of a jump in total population.

Here is some more data. Not all of these cases are mass shootings, but that doesn't really matter. Note the number of cases in the 50's and 60's, and then compare the number of cases in the 90's and 2000's. Then look at the numbers for the 2010's (which we aren't even half way through).

Has the number of humans killing other humans actually increased ?

I'm prone to think: No

But what does seem to have changed is that most (not all) but most killings used to be done by soldiers in battle and criminal circles... Now the killing has branched out to everyday common people, including our children.

So why is that ?

In a nutshell, the decay of society.

But before we can think of a remedy to the problem, we first must understand what does "the decay of society" really mean ? What has changed to bring about this rotting from within ?

To me, it comes down to a couple of very basic fundamentals: We now live in a society that embraces instant gratification and a sense of entitlement. This mindset is now the majority, rather than the minority. Which has made the pendulum swing in a different direction and we're reaping the consequences of it. Self-sufficiency has gone out the window, self-responsibility has gone out the window, appreciation and gratitude has gone out the window, patience has gone out the window.

The quick fix:
Feel bad ? Pop a pill.
Want that car ? Take out a loan.
Hurt yourself ? Sue someone.
Having a tough time making ends meet ? Get some food stamps.
Spouse pissed you off ? Get a divorce.

When you can just run down to the corner store and buy a loaf of bread, you no longer appreciate the work that went into making it and therefore, begin to take that loaf of bread foregranted.




So what's the fix ?

Unfortunately, we can't change the road that modern day society has gone down and will continue to go down... so now what ?!

Yes, we as individuals can raise our offspring (the next generation) to not adopt this mindset. But let's face it, we're swimming upstream when our kids are surrounded by a world that doesn't operate that way the minute they step out the front door. Also, not everyone is going to raise their children that way and, in fact, there'll be more parents that don't than those of us that do.

So that's not going to fix the overall societal problem either.



Basically, what we're looking at is one hell of a conundrum and there is no easy answer nor is there any singular "fix-all" solution (yet another want for instant gratification). Modern day society would literally need a complete "reboot" overall, from top to bottom, inside and out.

So short of the world as we know it imploding on itself and wiping the slate clean. We're screwed.



.... So it's back to putting the band-aids on the gaping wounds until that day finally arrives (and we all know deep down inside that's exactly what's going to end up happening).



The glass is half empty.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Population of 1980=226,545,805

Population of 2010=308,745,538

Increase in population=(308745538-226545805)/226545805= .36 growth rate.

Murder rate has decreased by almost half in that time frame.

Change in number of mass murders is not statistically significant. In fact, without help of media in relation to population and overall murder rates it would be undetectable.

Also the link you gave me was of only school shootings.

There are many types of murders and it all goes into pool of murder rates for a population. There hasn't been a significant increase in mass murders and overall people are less dangerous than 30 years ago.

Cop on civilian violence and murder has increase by significant portions and black on black crime is still a huge issue in that community. Everyone else has statistically become less dangerous as the years have went on.

Are there mass killings? Yes but the increase is not statistically significant. It is a very small percentage of homicides in America.

The real dangers to civilians that are increasing day by day is police violence.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

You are far more likely to be killed by a police officer(even if you are innocent) than by a lone gunman.

Here's website that isn't really a scientific site but does highlight innocent killings by law enforcement:

www.lanejudson.com...

Here's a article that explains how police are three times more likely to commit an unjustified homicide than a concealed carrier:

www.thetruthaboutguns.com...

Of course what constitutes a "justified" homicide is the scary part. Of course if a police officer shoots a concealed carry owner regardless if they were using weapon at that time, they were "armed" and "dangerous".

"Armed" suspects get shot everyday but no one stops to question what that means.

All in all the media ignores the very real increasing violence of police homicides and brutality while highlighting statistically insignificant changes in mass murders in an attempt to rally public opinion against gun ownership so the murdering oink oinks can have a monopoly on violence.

I'm not buying it.

Either way, you will believe what you will believe and so will everyone else.

So with that, this will be my last comment in this discussion.

reply to post by CranialSponge


Recognizing the problem, recognizing that we HAVE a problem within society is the first step.

I created this thread to look at a problem.

I've already admitted that my preconceived notions were wrong coming into this thread.

I wish we all had the answers. But we have to ask the questions first.

Many have provided great illustrations for the increase, the decrease, the spectrum of violence.

I don't think the solutions are difficult.

But we have to learn what the right questions are first.

People kill people because Apple posts HORRIBLE earnings and drops 60 bucks after you just bought over 100 grand worth of their stock + multiple bearish options positions.

That's why people kill people.

reply to post by beezzer


I think the question of why, rather than how, is the right question to ask. It's one we don't ask often enough. Right on.

As to my thoughts on it, I think it is a combination of things that could simply be summed up as culture. We are desensitized to violence, while at the same time the appearance of a breast on national tv outrageous us. Our music and video games are violent. Maybe its not that though as other countries have violent media, and they don't kill me at insane rates.

For whatever reason, we seem to value the life of someone who has wronged us, or a stranger, very little. I'm not sure why.

reply to post by Anonex


Do you see a solution to any of this?

A tough question, I know, just asking because, really, I don't have one.

reply to post by Anonex


That's an argument I've heard made before, and I'm not sure that's exactly true.

If what you say is true, I shouldn't value anyone's life. I play a decent number of violent video games, and I enjoy a certain number of violent movies. In fact, I like Quentin Tarantino. *crickets*

But I would never, ever dream of taking someone else's life unless they directly threatened me, and I needed to defend myself although I do acknowledge the necessity of justice in some cases. But I would never do it myself. Maybe it's because my father often took me fishing as a little girl, and I watched him kill and clean the fish. I saw them go from alive to dead and gutted, so it taught me an appreciation for what taking a life meant in real terms, and it taught me respect for where my food came from.

I also grew up with pets and was taught to respect them and not to hurt them as other living things that could feel pain. Of course, I was also raised in the faith, too. That teaches you a certain respect for life.

I was also taught to difference between reality and fantasy. What I do in a game. What I see on TV. Those are fantasy and not real.

I don't know, but I certainly feel it keenly when I see real humans hurt. I don't like seeing an injury on field at a football game for example, not even the opposing team. It makes me hurt to hear about real people suffering things.

So I haven't been desensitized by my exposure to violence. So I think that's overly simplistic. I think there is more to it, something we aren't seeing.

beezzer
reply to post by Anonex

 

Do you see a solution to any of this?

A tough question, I know, just asking because, really, I don't have one.

Nope. According to myth, the third human smacked the fourth human in the head with a rock. That's about right, IMHO.

reply to post by beezzer


I watched a documentary about the end of the European part of WWII yesterday, and was struck by the fact that the Allied troops lined the villagers who lived next door (literally in some cases) to the death camps up and forced them to tour the camps before the mess was cleaned up. Piles and piles of corpses all over the place, left right out in the open air, and these people had the gall to insist that they'd never had any idea what had been happening, for years, just beyond the fences and the train tracks.

There have been estimates that approximately 15,000 labor, death and/or concentration camps were in use during the Holocaust, and yet the villagers never admitted to having known anything about what was going on in their own midst. Hannah Arendt coined the phrase The Banality of Evil in reference to the capacity for normal people to allow (or even participate in) the most horrific atrocities to persist without even flinching.

Shooting up a mall is pretty bad, but smelling the burning human flesh every day for years, and getting used to the smell so that you don't have to acknowledge the fact that thousands of people are being exterminated on an industrial scale right next door.....

That requires a whole different level of disdain for the human race. The mall shooting last seconds, and then the shooter generally kills himself. Those German villagers ate, slept, worked, raised their kids, made love to their spouses, threw birthday parties, celebrated Christmas, attended church services, prayed to their gods, and basically lived their day-to-day lives as human ash drifted across their skies and settled onto their streets. They knew what was going on, and yet, they were capable of aggressively ignoring it to the degree that they got relatively comfortable with it.

To be honest, that's the generation of human beings that makes my skin crawl.

Hell, even the Americans cheered when two Atom bombs were dropped on civilians, instead of first trying one out on a military target (as a very convincing display of what the bomb would do if the Japanese refused to surrender). What kind of psychopath deliberately chooses to obliterate women, children, and old people, as a first option, instead of an easily targeted military or industrial center. At least one bomb of the two. At least the first of the two bombs.

The "Greatest Generation" were frightening people. The mall shooters aren't sh*t compared to the housewives of that twisted bunch.

reply to post by NorEaster


Thank you for your input. So am I to conclude that this disdain has been going on for much longer than a generation, and that it isn't a generational issue?

This is part of the human condition? (As sick and as accurate as you portrayed it)

beezzer
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Thank you for your input. So am I to conclude that this disdain has been going on for much longer than a generation, and that it isn't a generational issue?

This is part of the human condition? (As sick and as accurate as you portrayed it)

The evidence does suggest it.

Ever see the piles of skulls associated with the Pol Pot regime? They're pretty impressive. It took a dedicated effort to kill those millions and then stack their severed heads like that. I doubt that a mall shooter would be able to stomach that job.

reply to post by NorEaster


A compelling argument.

And one that flies in the face of any solution.

beezzer
reply to post by NorEaster

 

A compelling argument.

And one that flies in the face of any solution.

Life is a temporary circumstance for each of us. I try not to worry about coming up with a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I focus on trying to be the best version of myself that I can be, and let everyone else deal with their moment of material manifestation in whatever way they see fit. If I approached life any other way, I'd be killing people until the instant of my own death. I'd never get anything worthwhile done.

reply to post by NorEaster


You(and Beezer) should read some of the articles on this website:

This guy takes a look at the possible connections between widespread early childhood trauma and war(among other things but that's the main subject):

www.psychohistory.com...

I especially like this paper in regard to the childhood origins of the holocaust:

www.psychohistory.com...

OrphanApology
reply to post by NorEaster

 

You(and Beezer) should read some of the articles on this website:

This guy takes a look at the possible connections between widespread early childhood trauma and war(among other things but that's the main subject):

www.psychohistory.com...

I especially like this paper in regard to the childhood origins of the holocaust:

www.psychohistory.com...

That's some powerful stuff. Looks like I have some serious reading to do. Thanks!

reply to post by beezzer


Your eyes are getting droopier and redder by the minute.

Maybe you need to stop asking yourself these questions... it's harmful to your health.

Next thing you know the docs will have you on Prozac in the morning, Paxil after lunch, and Zoloft before bed.

... A month later you'll get this weird unexplainable sudden urge to purchase an AK15 and some Rambo gear.

beezzer
Recent thread concerning the Maryland Mall shooting prompted me to write this.

Why does someone shoot/kill someone?

Of course this incident will spur another debate on guns. One poster showed stats about the high number of gang-related deaths due to firearms.

Stopping people from owning a gun may restrict HOW someone will kill another person.

But it doesn't answer the question as to WHY someone would want to kill another person.


I'm pro 2nd Amendment. All the way. But I want this discussion to be about the "WHY" and not the "HOW".

What has changed in our society that enables anyone to believe that conflict resolution can be solved with the use of a firearm?


I eagerly await your replies.

Why does someone shoot and kill someone.... Fear...

I think that really sums it up. When I look at other countries who own guns(Canada, Mexico, Several European Nations) I see very different statistics relating to guns and violent crime. Gang violence and guns are always relative. Gang members kill each other, and in almost every case procure their firearms illegally, which entirely negates any further gun legislation because if they get them illegally now, how can you say they will not after more laws "regulating" them.

The biggest difference I can find between the US and other nations is Fear. The US is afraid, it's afraid of it's neighbours, it's afraid of it's government, it's afraid of it's citizens, it's afraid of it's perceived enemies and those they feel may try to step in and change things.

Why does someone shoot and kill someone... Fear, fear that they will harm them, force them to change, rule over them, take away what they have, intrude on their property or privacy, steal or damage their property or persons. This is really the only reason I can see. If you go and look yourself and analyze almost every shooting situation it boils down to fear.

The US is afraid, not that they are wrong to be so, but this is why I feel we see so much gun related violence in the US. This is why it seems to be increasing in a world where getting a decent job is harder and harder and harder. Where the threat of war is almost constant, and the threat of terrorism just as much. The fear of fitting in, of succeeding, of standing out. FEAR FEAR FEAR.


This is why you are shooting each other Americans, in your schools. In your homes, in your neighbourhoods, and shopping malls.

Stop being so afraid.