Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Willtell


I Think Vallee is in the similar boat as John Keel…comparing it to metaphysical phenomenon and not buying the et theory. These guys are into Ultraterrestrail---spirits

I think Robert Anton Wilson was closest into the actual reality of the situation.


It's not an either/or situation. It's complex, with metaphysical/spiritual forces interacting with, and in combination with the nuts and bolts, tactile, solid world that most accept as "reality" and often confuse the two.

It's going to take awhile for the monkeys with guns to mature enough to "grok" the actual situation. There are ways to get a slight glimpse behind the curtain but even that may be a manufactured illusion. Like I said it's complex.

I agree it’s complex and that people who want to reduce the ET phenomenon to one thing or another: physical only or spiritual only, are likely missing the boat in that this situation may entail a vast array of perspectival realities and the reductionist is misleading people.

Like religion, WHEN WE REALLY DON’T KNOW
Then we should probably remain open until certainty takes hold.

a reply to: lostgirl

"a control system based on stories"

Yeah, LG, that constitutes the whole of the contribution that myself and the others that support the idea have to bring to the table; there's more, but that's the gist of it: what we came to refer to as the "narrative control network" and the wetware (brain stuff) that it might run on.

We had been grinding on it for more than two years before this thread came around. We had intended on dropping the body of the information we had collected as a thread or threads. That didn't work out quite as planned, so we started to drop it here. Remember? The St. Paul and Hildy Von Bingen posts?

Eidolon23 dropped some here...

Here

I started in over here (read down)...

Here

Didja see this one?

Kilgore Trout's posts concerning the suspension of disbelief, found here...

Here

That was the real DARPA link that was making the FL thread so spooky...

Narrative Disruptors And Inductors page: 1

And why both this thread and the FL thread are connected.

p.s. Freaky avatar, man - hope it doesn't give me nightmares

Ah I just have it up because folks are dropping in on this old thread. You will probably find some stuff in it that applies to this thread as well...

Air Loom: The Curious Case of James Tilly Matthews page: 1

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout

originally posted by: Tangerine
But would it matter if Jesus never existed? There's not an iota of contemporaneous documentation proving that he actually lived. That puts him in the realm of the fairies and the greys (ie. no testable evidence that they exist(ed). Does he, therefore, serve the same purpose?

It wouldn't matter to me particularly if he had never existed. I like to think that he did, and while there may be no solid evidence that he did, there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest that he was, but either way, if one pays attention to such things, it is the message that is important, not the messenger. His teachings, or those ascribed to him, belong to a much older tradition, and stand alongside those of other teachers in other times and places. Perhaps too much importance has been placed on Jesus himself, but in reality it doesn't matter, but the idea does.

originally posted by: Tangerine
You mentioned that the Jesus message is one of forgiveness, etc.. You're forgetting the threats of Hell that the Jesus character made.

But at that time, that was what people believed, and Jesus himself said he was not about destroying the system. He told people to pay their taxes, do their duty, serve their masters etc etc. His teachings were in line with Judaism, merely tempered by mercy over justice. It should be borne in mind that according to the gospels, Matthew in particular, I think, he is asked by his disciples why he talks in parables to the 'people' and he explains, roundaboutly, that that is what they understand, and so he talks to them at that level. Talk of hell can be seen in the same light. if someone believes in hell, then the threat of hell and damnation has meaning. So why wouldn't he do so? If you read the gospels, Jesus shows flaws, he expresses anger, frustration, the whole gamut of human emotions, that does not detract from the message central to his teachings, if anything, it emphasises it. For me, anyway.

How are you relating this to the topic of the thread?

a reply to: Bybyots

Oh yes, I remember DARPA, the occult, temporal lobe, and Tilly, et al...(interesting to revisit them all at once like this)

I guess when you used the term "stories", I thought you might be connecting it to the 'Vallee' control system specifically, I mean, in the sense of the 'phenomena' associated with UFO/ET/ultra-terrestrials etc...

It reminded me of something I said to my dad once:

"What if we're all just 'stories' that God is telling Himself to pass the time through eternity?"

-- Please no one take that to mean any 'particular' God, please filter it thru the thread's subject matter--

a reply to: lostgirl

I guess when you used the term "stories", I thought you might be connecting it to the 'Vallee' control system specifically, I mean, in the sense of the 'phenomena' associated with UFO/ET/ultra-terrestrials etc...

I am.

As far as I can tell, the common denominator amongst experiencers is temporal-lobe lability and various sleep "disorders", not aliens. The aliens and all of the other stuff are manufactured by the mind to explain what the body is experiencing.

You can read about that here: James–Lange theory

We are in a constant state of narrating our world in to being: Here's the short version.

Again, Whitley Strreiber is a prime example, what a powerful temporal-lobe epileptic he is, charsmatic and a good writer. Look how far his stories have carried "UFOlogy" in America and elsewhere.

Our biggest problem here on the thread has been one word: "Control".

When you put it together with the word "system" people start seeing prisons.

Even if that's not what Vallee meant.

Yeah, it's a Control System that runs on narrative. It seems to be growing us.

Anyone else that might have noticed it, had bad thoughts and then started to look for ways to commodify and weaponize it have no choice but to mimic it. So?

More stories, and the concept of devices that can disrupt narrative, at range.



Here. You'll like this...

originally posted by: Tangerine
How are you relating this to the topic of the thread?

Directly I wasn't, I was specifically responding to points you raised in relation to an exchange on beliefs in which I had participated. However, the relevancy of that exchange can be viewed in the context of the wider thread, and in terms of Vallee attributing a number of phenomenon, including mystical and religious experiences, to the manifestation of a 'control system', the way in which beliefs are proscribed, to me, is very much a part of that. And if you want to use the Bybyots et al theory of narratives, then it is definately integral, just think in terms of the First Council of Nicaea at which the nature of Jesus was discussed, decided upon and subsequently instituted as dogma.

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: lostgirl

I guess when you used the term "stories", I thought you might be connecting it to the 'Vallee' control system specifically, I mean, in the sense of the 'phenomena' associated with UFO/ET/ultra-terrestrials etc...

I am.

As far as I can tell, the common denominator amongst experiencers is temporal-lobe lability and various sleep "disorders", not aliens. The aliens and all of the other stuff are manufactured by the mind to explain what the body is experiencing.

You can read about that here: James–Lange theory

We are in a constant state of narrating our world in to being: Here's the short version.

Again, Whitley Strreiber is a prime example, what a powerful temporal-lobe epileptic he is, charsmatic and a good writer. Look how far his stories have carried "UFOlogy in America and elsewhere.

Our biggest problem here on the thread has been one word: "Control".

When you put it together with the word "system" people start seeing prisons.

Even if that's not what Vallee meant.

Yeah, it's a Control System that runs on narrative. It seems to be growing us.

Anyone else that might have noticed it, had bad thoughts and then started to look for ways to commodify and weaponize it have no choice but to mimic it. So?

More stories.

Here. You'll like this...

Temporal lobe lability and some sleep disorders can produce experiences (or interpretations of experiences) akin to alien encounters and abductions but I'm not sure that they account for all of it. You can produce pain in someone's arm by hitting their arm with a hammer. That doesn't mean that all arm pain is caused by being hit with hammers. I do understand that all arm pain involves arms. Even if all these experiences involve the temporal lobe, we can't know for certain in all cases what is stimulating the temporal lobe. I suppose someone (not implying that it's you) could claim that Persinger is personally responsible for sneaking around and stimulating the temporal lobes of all people who have claimed these bizarre experiences much like some people claim that two guys with a board and string have created all the crop circles around the world.

I suspect that Vallee did, indeed, intend "control system" to imply something negative in that we're being manipulated without consent. Whether people would choose to consent given the option is another matter.

a reply to: Bybyots
Thank you for the links will read them in depth later


I've never thought "prison" in regards Vallee's control system...to me it is just his 'term' for all the various manifestations of 'phenomena'...

....which, I'm not so sure can 'all' be reduced to "temporal lobe lability" and/or sleep disorders...I think Vallee himself would have made that connection, if that were all there was to it...

Could you elaborate on, "It seems to be growing us."? What do you consider "It" to be? 'Something' that causes temporal lobe or sleep disorder 'effects'?

a reply to: Tangerine

I'll get back to your first Qs but let's look at this first.

I suspect that Vallee did, indeed, intend "control system" to imply something negative in that we're being manipulated without consent.

Whether people would choose to consent given the option is another matter.

Just to keep things simple.

I don't think he did. I think that what he was doing was trying to provide the model of a SCADA system, or control system, that is involved in human development and that seems to include the phenomenon that people now refer to as the UFO/Alien phenomenon.

We are projecting now the aliens and UFOs on to the phenomenon, where before it may have been faeries, or angels or what have you, we've been over that, so so have you, as I know that you've read all the way through (you poor soul ).

The idea is that there is a mimic control system, the one that I had been referring to as the Pantomime Control System that is run by humans trying to mimic the natural system that people have been trying to describe since Socrates/Plato. Plotinus did the best job.

If there's one that's bad for us it's man-made. We are the Telos, as Upton has said so eloquently, it can't be any other way.

a reply to: lostgirl

'Something' that causes temporal lobe or sleep disorder 'effects'?

No, something that uses the temporal lobes as elements of a network so that it can communicate with us through narratives.

LG, I promise it does not end in mundanity. There is this whole realm of archetypal narrative landscape out there that is our birthright. We have built civilization after civilization from it. How is that not gloriously spiritual. It drives us hence.

I'll get back to ya in a sec.

a reply to: lostgirl

Gawd, there goes my Karma.

"It seems to be growing us."

Yeah, I mean precisely that, every single iota of pressure in the solar system is focused like a giant clockwork-machine on growing us.

We aren't complete. That's why Jesus, and Troubadours and that sort of thing.

You know? People are still learning to use their fore-brains? It ain't over yet, it's far from over.

a reply to: lostgirl

I think Vallee himself would have made that connection, if that were all there was to it...

Aw c'mon, man!

Even after I called the Big-Data-style MUFON hoovering that he and his cronies are planning before he did?

He can't think of everything, LG.

Even Vallee works in a team. You saw that GEIPAN link.

Geez.

originally posted by: Bybyots

Yeah, I mean precisely that, every single iota of pressure in the solar system is focused like a giant clockwork-machine on growing us.

Yes, but this would only be the 'means' by which 'something' is growing us...

...what would you say the 'something' is?

...And why does 'it' give a fig whether we become "complete"?...

...And how does 'it' define "complete"?

...History seems to be showing (since the industrial revolution, at least) that civilization is in the process of deconstructing - in essence, becoming 'less' complete (as a whole, if not entirely individually)...how does that figure in?


Is it only 'our' solar system that has been 'growing' civilizations?

...And lastly, what does any of it have to do with your "Karma"?
(No seriously, I'm horribly slow on the 'uptake' at times - light bulb's not going off on the Karma reference, probably won't for at least two days unless you spell it out for me...)

Over the last few months I've been delving more deeply into the philosophy of the Wing Makers website. wingmakers.com

The posit God or "1st Source," created a hierarchy that promotes an "evolution/saviorship" model wherein we are set up to believe we need a savior to become fully aware of heaven/nirvana, etc.

What better control system could there possibly be than advanced and noble aliens with superior technology?

Something stinks about the whole ET theory. I can't give specifics other than more channeled information seems to be talking about ascended masters, crystal chambers for enlightenment, the freeing of humanity with help from friendly ETs.

If some ET suggested I climb into a crystal light chamber in order to ascend, I think I'd be inclined to act like a pig. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Not very advance nor Christ-like? Something is off about ETs as they are portrayed in pop culture if you ask me.

I vote that it is very likely the ET phenom is a control program. Oh yes. I almost forgot. EF You Kay the NSA!

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: Tangerine

I'll get back to your first Qs but let's look at this first.

I suspect that Vallee did, indeed, intend "control system" to imply something negative in that we're being manipulated without consent.

Whether people would choose to consent given the option is another matter.

Just to keep things simple.

I don't think he did. I think that what he was doing was trying to provide the model of a SCADA system, or control system, that is involved in human development and that seems to include the phenomenon that people now refer to as the UFO/Alien phenomenon.

We are projecting now the aliens and UFOs on to the phenomenon, where before it may have been faeries, or angels or what have you, we've been over that, so so have you, as I know that you've read all the way through (you poor soul

).

The idea is that there is a mimic control system, the one that I had been referring to as the Pantomime Control System that is run by humans trying to mimic the natural system that people have been trying to describe since Socrates/Plato. Plotinus did the best job.

If there's one that's bad for us it's man-made. We are the Telos, as Upton has said so eloquently, it can't be any other way.

I suspect that it's true that the first control system may be so inherent to our existence that we would not be able to function without it. It may also not be in our best interest to open the door and peek inside -- not that that will stop some of us from trying. It may be impossible for us to open the door completely and those who try to open it encounter something tailor-made for the individual "offender" that masks or diverts from the actual control system.

There's a huge problem distinguishing the Pantomime Control System (I like that) from the natural system although, surely, that must be easier to crack. I have noticed that increasing numbers of people (although not nearly enough) have started to disbelieve or at least question the news. I wonder if a significant planned event would change that skepticism? Answering my own question, I doubt it. It would, however, reinforce the mindset of the Gullibles.

a reply to: lostgirl

...what would you say the 'something' is?

...And why does 'it' give a fig whether we become "complete"?...

...And how does 'it' define "complete"?

Wadda I look like here? A hookah-smoking caterpillar?

Golly LG listen, you know the whole panoply of Western thought is concerned with transmutation and redemption. The idea of the prima materia of Alchemy, for instance, derives from Aristotle's concept of hyle or base matter.

It goes back to this same sort of emanationist thinking where things get "grosser" (more gross) as they descend down this sort of heirarchical ladder of being.

Fundamentally there is a war on between "spirit" and "matter". Like the Sword in the Stone (I'll return to this) we are embedded in matter.

I don't know what "completion" is, because I haven't experienced it. The "It" that you are asking about was charcterized by Plotinus as the "Choragus of All Existence" and ultimately Plotinus warned that the only way to reach that "chorus master" to sing along with him in a unique and inspired voice, was to embrace matter fully, to sort of escape matter by consuming it with a life thoroughly lived. More transmutation and redemption, then.

So, this idea of completeness comes from the suggestion that something has been begun, and is progressing towards being finished. It's an idea that can be found in the metaphysics (as per Upton) of both East and West. My favorite place to hear about it is from literature of all sorts, and my singular favorite is Arthurian legend.

With all of the chivalry and pageantry and jousting, it's easy even for me to forget that the Knights of The Round Table quest for the Holy Grail to heal Arthur, who has been gravely injured, so that the land will be healed.

a reply to: Bybyots

You do know that I'm not trying to be antagonistic or 'challenge' your perspectives in any way?

The questions arise as a result of sincere consideration and interest in understanding your point of view...

And you answered the question of the 'nature' of "completion" more thoroughly than you realize, I think.

Have you ever read Tolkien's "Silmarillion"? It is a sort of 'bible' to Middle Earth (origins, myths, and stories which make up a 'legendarium' which serves as the 'foundation' from which the 'World' of "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" arise...
...Anyway, the first 'book' is the creation story - and in shortest/simplest terms, it consists of "Eru" (The One) sort of 'singing' everything into existence (for each 'stage' or particular 'things/beings' there are different 'songs', Tolkien puts it - Eru "propounds themes").
It goes on to explain (after and in the midst of a whole lot of other stuff going on) that the eventual 'purpose' of 'creation' is to (physically) fulfill itself in a way that eventually will lead to a 'reunion' of all the 'peoples' with Eru, at which time they will 'sing' together a final "theme" (in essence, a 'song') of (yes, in fact) 'completion'...

All that just to say - your description of Plotinus' Choragus, put me in mind of Tolkien's cosmogony of the 'world/universe' of Middle Earth...

BTW, you'd make a good "hookah-smoking caterpillar", at least you tried to answer my questions - all Alice's did was start throwing questions back at her!

Oh, one more thing the "Choragus" reminded me of - something I wrote (oddly enough before I'd ever even read Tolkien)...this is just the first stanza:

All of creation is a dance,
A dance of light
moving to the One song,
the song is Love...

a reply to: TangerineShrike?!

a reply to: The GUT

A rare sighting of The GUT has just occurred!

I monitor you, you know! hahahaha jk

What do you think about the fact that your Vallee thread is still going after almost a year? Pretty impressive!

a reply to: lostgirl


A tune that could be enjoyed by the people and faeries alike, yes perhaps that would do it...though faeries need something they can dance to.




The actual location of 'Middle Earth' is hereabouts, Tolkien based his Middle Earth on the geographic centre of Britain, and therefore the world as these things go;

Lancashire; Journey to Middle Earth

Tolkien Trail







In many ways it was a good synthesis of the historic associations of this particular region, with the Rohinan as the Sarmatian auxilliaries that had been granted settlers rights during the Roman period and went on to become the basis for the Knights of Arthurian mythos, the Flemish and Norman Lords that built the mighty stone Abbeys and Castles as Gondor, and the hobbits as the indigenous British/Celtic folk, with Mordor as industrialized Greater Manchester and the Elves of the seaside resorts of the Fylde coast, the Dwarves the Scandanavian settlers that came in search of gold, so a true story really.