What Force Is It That Animates The Human; is it Radiation?

vethumanbeing

Lets say everything you say is a proven quanitified truism; what exactly is the mechanism that drives the body human?

ATP. Haven't we been over this? No ATP, no life. You make ATP out of glucose or fatty acids using one of several pathways, depending on whether you're a prokaryote or a eukaryote, and being human and eukaryotic, you can be using fermentation or oxidative phosphorylation, depending on the oxygen supply, at least for a bit. It should be noted that human red blood cells ALWAYS use fermentation, they don't have mitochondria.

You are insufferably distracting; any child knows that wave form is a tangible ossilation of the descriptions of electrical or magnetic or frequency of light expression. Sound vibration accellerates into light frequency.

That doesn't even make sense, to be honest. You can have EM waves, they're transverse waves of electric and magnetic fields. You can have sound waves. Those are longitudinal waves of compression and rarefaction in an elastic medium such as air or water. But sound is not EM, and never is EM. It does not "accelerate into light frequency". They are not the same in any way.

What do you think drives mechanically produced sound? Have you ever built a speaker?

Have you ever played a sax? Do you think all speakers use magnets? A speaker is nothing more than a linear motor for moving air. It's the air motion that makes the sound. See also: Victrola, piano, drum, small child etc. Most things that make sound don't have magnets. Sound is not magnetic. It isn't a magnetic field. It's not a radio wave. It's pressure waves in air, water or a solid.

Wave forms are either "IN PHASE" can observe them and identify or "OUT OF PHASE" hard to put a finger on.

That's not what phase means, btw.

reply to post by Bedlam


Alright; know my truths, you have your hard science/are they bookform? . I am a layman but I have common sense that tells me what is in the books is potencial falderal. I can think for myself; I do not believe what a bible tells me as it is metaphorical and potentially manipulative. You if so believe trace metals in the human body have no purpose say so. You have not addressed OP question. What drives your body outside of the injestion of particulates; oxygen, foodstuffs. A baby is slapped to cause it to breathe air outside the womb (water breather before). It was already breathing/heart beating in the ambiotic fluid of its mothers womb. What animated it when ejected; told it YOU ARE ALIVE NOW in a physical world? What your problem is Bedlam; you cannot cross territories of the unknown; you fear something, perhaps your own human existance; are you hiding from your humaness?

vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Alright; know my truths, you have your hard science/are they bookform? . I am a layman but I have common sense that tells me what is in the books is potencial falderal.

Oddly enough, we're not talking particle physics here, the basic nature of sound and ferromagnetism has been known for centuries.

You if so believe trace metals in the human body have no purpose say so.

I've been saying so. You asserted that "only magnetic metals are good" and listed a lot of stuff as evil that you have to have to live. Some of which are actually magnetic.

You have not addressed OP question. What drives your body outside of the injestion of particulates; oxygen, foodstuffs.

Are you asking "what is behavior", because the original topic was asserting the existence of some putative "life force" that gave life to cells. This is a bit of a topic jump. But, behavior is either a tropic response in the case of cells or for people, it's caused by the function of the nervous system and brain.

A baby is slapped to cause it to breathe air outside the womb (water breather before).

Fetuses sort of make gasping motions in the last weeks of pregnancy, but they're not actually getting anything out of the fluid in terms of oxygen. That all comes from the umbilical cord.

What animated it when ejected; told it YOU ARE ALIVE NOW in a physical world?

That would be "the brain". It was already animated, by the way, it moves and responds in utero.

reply to post by Bedlam


You sure your responding to the right thread? Strawberry Shortcake, or Unicorn Anomolies a better fit?

vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Alright; know my truths, you have your hard science/are they bookform? . I am a layman but I have common sense that tells me what is in the books is potencial falderal. I can think for myself; I do not believe what a bible tells me as it is metaphorical and potentially manipulative. You if so believe trace metals in the human body have no purpose say so. You have not addressed OP question. What drives your body outside of the injestion of particulates; oxygen, foodstuffs. A baby is slapped to cause it to breathe air outside the womb (water breather before). It was already breathing/heart beating in the ambiotic fluid of its mothers womb. What animated it when ejected; told it YOU ARE ALIVE NOW in a physical world? What your problem is Bedlam; you cannot cross territories of the unknown; you fear something, perhaps your own human existance; are you hiding from your humaness?

edit on 23-1-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

This has been explained to you over and over but you don't seem to get it.

Biochemistry 'powers' living things. A baby does not actually breathe amniotic fluid but goes through the motions to stimulate lung development while oxygenation of blood is done through the umbilical.

Your suspicion of books seems a little misplaced, particularly given that these are not controversial or little known subjects, this is stuff that has been known and pretty much agreed on for ages.

Return of The SON of NO THING
vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam

ReturnofTheSonOfNothingThis has been explained to you over and over but you don't seem to get it. Biochemistry 'powers' living things. A baby does not actually breathe amniotic fluid but goes through the motions to stimulate lung development while oxygenation of blood is done through the umbilical.

Yes that would be a biology class 7th grade (along with how reproduction works).
Biochemistry sustaines the body, what animates the heart, starts it tick tocking? Why when in defrib, electrified paddles are placed on the sternum? Slap on the rump when born (breathe babycakes).

ReturnofNothingYour suspicion of books seems a little misplaced, particularly given that these are not controversial or little known subjects, this is stuff that has been known and pretty much agreed on for ages.

I continue to tell my library it is free to multiply/procreate any subjects combine and create new theories (or dot to dots). I am suspicious YES; as I have not seen any new BABY BOOKLETS AS OF YET. Foot tapping on the floor (very annoying).
I would have to ask my predecessor; the shaman CroMagnon Man; or its predecesor, the APE (do you think they still speak the Kings English?), banana used as a bribe factor, or present a female (of that specie) in heat?

vethumanbeing
Return of The SON of NO THING
vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam
what animates the heart

The muscles, acting on electrochemical impulses from the nerves.

ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

vethumanbeing
Return of The SON of NO THING
vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam
what animates the heart

The muscles, acting on electrochemical impulses from the nerves.

Yes, and the heart is what; a pump or THE MAJOR muscle that has about how many 'one billion' beats in its life span. What determines the eventual death of the heart muscle; the activity of thigh muscles? Is that what you are positing? I have a question, considering the thigh bones are the major factories/creators of red blood cells, if a severe lower body amputee, where does ones body make enough cells (what area of the body) would that activity be transfered to? If one does not move (in a catasrophic coma state) no nerves are applicable. What then is it keeps the heart beating. Is it the brains limbic system 'text messaging: brain to heart continue life support". Lets take this further; say an ALS; baseball player Louie G. diseased person; has the same affliction Steven Hawking has; a genious that lives completely paralized with no physical ambulatory access, is able to work his internal organs with his brain; how is this possible? You are saying all of this is motor related by nerve connections? The Heart is a muscle; just as the body is made of whatever is driving the heart, it should be paralized as well. To make this very clear, if every other muscle in his body does not function (including the ability to swallow) why is Hawkings heart muscle still functioning/beating?

vethumanbeing

Biochemistry sustaines the body, what animates the heart, starts it tick tocking? Why when in defrib, electrified paddles are placed on the sternum? Slap on the rump when born (breathe babycakes).

The heart isn't all that different from any other muscle. Cardiac muscle cells are structured a bit differently than voluntary and smooth muscle, you can see striations in cardiac muscle that aren't apparent in voluntary muscle. It has to do with how the actin and myosin strands are arranged. Cardiac cells also have intercalation disc connections between cells, which are sort of like gap junctions between neurons. It allows cardiac muscle to fire sequentially.

But why does it beat? It has an electrical conduction system that you only see in cardiac muscle. Up in the right atrium are several pacemaker nodes. In a healthy heart, one node will be the primary pacemaker. The electrical conduction system in the heart consists of even MORE specialized cardiac muscle cells, they're more like neurons than muscle fibers. Pacemaker centers in the heart have intentional ion channel leaks that cause them to depolarize spontaneously if they're not otherwise triggered by another node. If the main right atrium pacing site fails, other atrial pacers will eventually fire. If no atrial center fires, the SA node will take over at a slower rate. If the SA node fails, ventricular pacers will take over.

Each pacing site fires at a consecutively slower rate - the atrial node fires about 70 or faster depending on chemical and neural inputs from the brain. The SA node will run at 60-70, ventricular nodes run about 40.

So to answer your question, what starts it tick-tocking is a leaky ion channel.

As far as defibrillating a heart goes, you get this when you get a conduction problem, generally caused by anoxia. If the ventricular pacing centers sense hypoxia, they may "decide" that atrial pacing has failed and begin causing ventricular beats. If many ventricular pacing centers do this, then the ventricles contract erratically in an ineffective way. The intent of defibrillation is to totally depolarize the heart muscle and conduction system so that it STOPS beating at all. After it recovers, if it's not too damaged, an atrial or SA pacing center will begin firing and the heart will resume coordinated beats instead of dozens of patches of heart muscle trying to establish their own rhythms.

reply to post by Bedlam


I do not DisagreE with you. I simply do not know why a paralized being whose motor ''smooth" muscles cannot function (breathing apperatus lungs) failed yet the heart continues to beat. Spiritual people believe the heart is where the soul resides and would argue, until the soul departs the heart it will continue to beat. Bedlam, you are a credit to the ATS community; and although I as a layman DO understand your hypothosis. Thankyou for responding this thread. There is a problem, the heart beats inutero regardless (this is not a conscious being yet), what actually happens at birth? Is this when the 'event happens' a soul/spirit enters the human body? Im trying to pin this down. Ive heard of the 3 gram experiment, body alive weighs a certain kilograms, at death wieghs 3 grams less (taking into account the evacuation of the bowels or bladder).

vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam

 

I do not DisagreE with you. I simply do not know why a paralized being whose motor ''smooth" muscles cannot function (breathing apperatus lungs) failed yet the heart continues to beat.

Well, that's pretty straight forward. Again, the actual control of the beats is done by pacing centers in the atria, in a properly functioning heart. The brain doesn't control individual beats. Also, motor (voluntary) and smooth muscle are different in structure and use. Voluntary muscle is the sort you use to raise your arm, smooth muscle is the sort that lines your arteries.

Regulation of the heart beat rate and force is done by a number of ways, the heart has internal sensors for various things like "how much fluid is in the loop", the temperature of the blood and how much oxygen it's carrying. It's also got sensors for chemical cues sent by other organs like the kidneys, the adrenals, and the hypothalamus/pituitary area, and you've got neural connections from the brain to the heart as well, mostly the vagal nerve. The nerve connections don't set individual beats, but they do control rate. You can get by without the neural regulation, if you have a heart transplant the only regulation is chemical, because the nerves can't be hooked back up.

If you're up for doing someone in, you can take advantage of the regulatory systems of the body to shut the heart down, that's a bit gruesome for ATS, though. Suffice it to say the regulatory loops aren't foolproof.

Spiritual people believe the heart is where the soul resides and would argue, until the soul departs the heart it will continue to beat.

Empirical people think it's a meat pump. That's why you can replace it with a mechanical pump, like a HeartMate III. Or someone else's heart.

There is a problem, the heart beats inutero regardless (this is not a conscious being yet), what actually happens at birth?

The heart starts beating before it's actually complete. As soon as you have enough cardiac cells and a pacing site forms, it takes off. That happens really early, about week 4 or 5.

eta: Babies are quite conscious in utero. I'm not sure if or how much they actually retain from this period, but both of mine could distinguish people's voices, had adult voices they apparently liked and disliked, types of music they obviously liked and disliked, foods Mom ate they definitely didn't like and would by the last trimester actually "play" by pushing at places you were tickling on Mom's tum like some oddball whack-a-mole game. You can tell when they're awake or asleep. If they're asleep and you make a noise they'll startle.

Is this when the 'event happens' a soul/spirit enters the human body? Im trying to pin this down. Ive heard of the 3 gram experiment, body alive weighs a certain kilograms, at death wieghs 3 grams less (taking into account the evacuation of the bowels or bladder).

That was way back about 1901, done by a guy named Duncan MacDougall. He was the only person for whom this particular experiment worked, and no one's duplicated it since. It was really woo sounding, though, so Charles Fort ran with it, the rest is history. Back at the turn of the 19th century, there was a lot of belief in psychic powers, after it was investigated enough, that all ended due to lack of proof. This is the period of Harry Houdini, the Cottingley Fairies, Arthur Conan Doyle's spiritualism investigations and the heyday of Theosophy. People believed a lot of frank bs, to be honest.

Bedlam
vethumanbeing
reply to post by Bedlam

VHBI do not DisagreE with you. I simply do not know why a paralized being whose motor ''smooth" muscles cannot function (breathing apperatus lungs) failed yet the heart continues to beat.

BedlamWell, that's pretty straight forward. Again, the actual control of the beats is done by pacing centers in the atria, in a properly functioning heart. The brain doesn't control individual beats. Also, motor (voluntary) and smooth muscle are different in structure and use. Voluntary muscle is the sort you use to raise your arm, smooth muscle is the sort that lines your arteries.

So you admit the 'soul' or radioactive force lives in the atria, and has nothing to do with the 'properly functioning' brains impulses at all. You are calling this limbic; but is that not a property of the lower limbic brains function (lizard).

BedlamRegulation of the heart beat rate and force is done by a number of ways, the heart has internal sensors for various things like "how much fluid is in the loop", the temperature of the blood and how much oxygen it's carrying. It's also got sensors for chemical cues sent by other organs like the kidneys, the adrenals, and the hypothalamus/pituitary area, and you've got neural connections from the brain to the heart as well, mostly the vagal nerve. The nerve connections don't set individual beats, but they do control rate. You can get by without the neural regulation, if you have a heart transplant the only regulation is chemical, because the nerves can't be hooked back up.

You have not answered my question; and its very simple. Why does the heart as a muscle continue to pump if the disease Lou Gs/Stephen Hawking has is all about paralizing muscles? The nerve connections shouldnt exist in the first place; as it attacks the NERVES and WAYLAYS the heart tissue communication connections into a state of atrophy or defrib. You are not making a good arguement.

BedlamIf you're up for doing someone in, you can take advantage of the regulatory systems of the body to shut the heart down, that's a bit gruesome for ATS, though. Suffice it to say the regulatory loops aren't foolproof.

Obviously this disease isnt the one to use as a murder weapon, as even though the body is completely paralized the heart apparently can be continually transplanted like an energizer bunny battery and be traced back to its owner.

VHBSpiritual people believe the heart is where the soul resides and would argue, until the soul departs the heart it will continue to beat.

BedlamEmpirical people think it's a meat pump. That's why you can replace it with a mechanical pump, like a HeartMate III. Or someone else's heart.

Perhaps that is why the pig pump never worked, or the artifical heart for any length of time?

VHBThere is a problem, the heart beats inutero regardless (this is not a conscious being yet), what actually happens at birth?

BedlamThe heart starts beating before it's actually complete. As soon as you have enough cardiac cells and a pacing site forms, it takes off. That happens really early, about week 4 or 5. eta: Babies are quite conscious in utero. I'm not sure if or how much they actually retain from this period, but both of mine could distinguish people's voices, had adult voices they apparently liked and disliked, types of music they obviously liked and disliked, foods Mom ate they definitely didn't like and would by the last trimester actually "play" by pushing at places you were tickling on Mom's tum like some oddball whack-a-mole game. You can tell when they're awake or asleep. If they're asleep and you make a noise they'll startle.

No; fetuses do not have "SELF" consciousness in utero, they are just jestating.
They have a VERY dim awareness of physical circumstances is all; VERY DIM, as in if move and find a uterine wall blockade that pushes back. Motor instinct reflex is all that applies. They do not become conscious beings until they are born and a soul enters the heart; and EVEN THATS A STRETCH FOR ME.

VHBIs this when the 'event happens' a soul/spirit enters the human body? Im trying to pin this down. Ive heard of the 3 gram experiment, body alive weighs a certain kilograms, at death wieghs 3 grams less (taking into account the evacuation of the bowels or bladder).

BedlamThat was way back about 1901, done by a guy named Duncan MacDougall. He was the only person for whom this particular experiment worked, and no one's duplicated it since. It was really woo sounding, though, so Charles Fort ran with it, the rest is history. Back at the turn of the 19th century, there was a lot of belief in psychic powers, after it was investigated enough, that all ended due to lack of proof. This is the period of Harry Houdini, the Cottingley Fairies, Arthur Conan Doyle's spiritualism investigations and the heyday of Theosophy. People believed a lot of frank bs, to be honest.

Im talking of the Woo,Woo,Woo experiments (more recent) but I respect you as a Steam Punk Think Tank Archivist (my favorites? Edgar Allen Poe and Jules Verne). Thankyou for your thoughtful replies its always interesting speaking to you Bedlam.

vethumanbeing

So you admit the 'soul' or radioactive force lives in the atria, and has nothing to do with the 'properly functioning' brains impulses at all. You are calling this limbic; but is that not a property of the lower limbic brains function (lizard).

Nothing radioactive or soul-like, it's a pacing center formed by the heart's conduction system. It's a specialized muscle cell with an ion leak.

You have not answered my question; and its very simple. Why does the heart as a muscle continue to pump if the disease Lou Gs/Stephen Hawking has is all about paralizing muscles? The nerve connections shouldnt exist in the first place; as it attacks the NERVES and WAYLAYS the heart tissue communication connections into a state of atrophy or defrib. You are not making a good arguement.

I've answered it again and again. You're either not reading or not understanding. Let's try it for the fourth time. Your heart is a muscle. It has specialized myocytes that form its conduction system. The conduction system of the heart is responsible for each individual beat. That's built into the heart. Your heart has several independent ways of knowing how FAST to beat, or how HARD to beat that partially involves neural connections to the brain. If this nerve connection is missing (as I stated over and over) the heart still beats, it's just not regulated by the brain directly anymore. I'm not sure how to simplify it further. There are neat animated pictures you can find online, just look up "heart conduction system".

In bullet points:

1) The heart has its very own built in system for making the heart beat
2) The heart regulates its speed and force by sensing various conditions. This doesn't fall into making beats or not making beats, but how fast and how hard
3) Part of that system includes a nerve connection called the vagus nerve that comes from the brain
4) The vagus nerve tells the heart to speed up or slow down. However, if it's not there, the heart still functions, just without that direct connection.
5) Even without a vagus nerve, the other regulatory systems of the heart still work, this is demonstrated by heart transplant recipients who don't have a vagus nerve connection to the heart

Perhaps that is why the pig pump never worked, or the artifical heart for any length of time?

People live with HeartMates for years. And with transplants for many more.

They do not become conscious beings until they are born and a soul enters the heart; and EVEN THATS A STRETCH FOR ME.

Know how I can tell you never had kids?

Actually the electrical systems in humans works by the difference between K+ and Na+ Ions. When at rest the neuron has more K+ ions and when activated and the Na channels are activated Na floods into the neuron changing the over all potential of the cell creating the current. Now the energy we use is created using ATP which is created from Glucose. Take a Molecular Biology course you learn a lot of very cool and interesting things it astounds me every time I learn about a new mechanism in the human body.

Bedlam
veteranhumanbeing

VHBSo you admit the 'soul' or radioactive force lives in the atria, and has nothing to do with the 'properly functioning' brains impulses at all. You are calling this limbic; but is that not a property of the lower limbic brains function (lizard).

BedlamNothing radioactive or soul-like, it's a pacing center formed by the heart's conduction system. It's a specialized muscle cell with an ion leak.

Veteranhumanbeing
You have not answered my question; and its very simple. Why does the heart as a muscle continue to pump if the disease Lou Gs/Stephen Hawking has is all about paralizing muscles? The nerve connections shouldnt exist in the first place; as it attacks the NERVES and WAYLAYS the heart tissue communication connections into a state of atrophy or defrib. You are not making a good arguement.

BedlamI've answered it again and again. You're either not reading or not understanding. Let's try it for the fourth time. Your heart is a muscle. It has specialized myocytes that form its conduction system. The conduction system of the heart is responsible for each individual beat. That's built into the heart. Your heart has several independent ways of knowing how FAST to beat, or how HARD to beat that partially involves neural connections to the brain. If this nerve connection is missing (as I stated over and over) the heart still beats, it's just not regulated by the brain directly anymore. I'm not sure how to simplify it further. There are neat animated pictures you can find online, just look up "heart conduction system".

In bullet points:

1) The heart has its very own built in system for making the heart beat
2) The heart regulates its speed and force by sensing various conditions. This doesn't fall into making beats or not making beats, but how fast and how hard
3) Part of that system includes a nerve connection called the vagus nerve that comes from the brain
4) The vagus nerve tells the heart to speed up or slow down. However, if it's not there, the heart still functions, just without that direct connection.
5) Even without a vagus nerve, the other regulatory systems of the heart still work, this is demonstrated by heart transplant recipients who don't have a vagus nerve connection to the heart

So you are saying if in defrib or heart attack and there is a potencial to actually KILL THE BODY HOST, destabalise the Vagus nerve, smother the patient with a pillow and no more life support events need to continue to sustain it (how does one deactivate the brain actually without a compression shot projectile?).

VHB
Perhaps that is why the pig pump never worked, or the artifical heart for any length of time?

BedlamPeople live with HeartMates for years. And with transplants for many more.

Then one is Original Soul Less. Has anyone done a study with these transplant patients, I hear the heart of another person carries the soul of the one dead and remembers its past life in its future host body.

veteranhumanbeing
They do not become conscious beings until they are born and a soul enters the heart; and EVEN THATS A STRETCH FOR ME.

Bedlam Know how I can tell you never had kids?

NO; how do you know or impart this very ugly comment (accusation); AND HOW COULD THAT BE your 'intuition' tells you so? What is the "never part" of an existing equation of yours; entirely personal obviously; nothing to do with me; but is all about YOU projecting your Ego (OWN IT) upon others that are simply not buying it.

Well, whatever the case may be, I like to add the mental aspect of it...
Yes the mental aspect, their will be days where I would have hardly eaten an drank any water at all, but just knowing that the day is coming to an end and my favorite to do is around the corner, I suddenly just come alive, awaken, powered up, run that last 2 miles down the street....lol, mainly on ruck marches this happens...
Perhaps Bedlams ATPs and peoples mental capacities at that moment are perfect energy boosts beyond the norm.

BGTM90
Actually the electrical systems in humans works by the difference between K+ and Na+ Ions. When at rest the neuron has more K+ ions and when activated and the Na channels are activated Na floods into the neuron changing the over all potential of the cell creating the current. Now the energy we use is created using ATP which is created from Glucose. Take a Molecular Biology course you learn a lot of very cool and interesting things it astounds me every time I learn about a new mechanism in the human body.

So could a soul/spirit be described as such a thing? NPMR, (non physical matter reality) infuses a focused intent to become/actuate PMR (Physical Matter Reality)an INSERTED PURE INTENT to cause the animation of the PMR body? Im just posing questions. Where does the original 'life' current come from? Is it pure intent to animate and by whom and how; as far as I know I wasnt jumpstarted using jumper cables using DC currents (a ford to chevy broken down on the road).

Veteranhumanbeing


So you are saying if in defrib or heart attack and there is a potencial to actually KILL THE BODY HOST, destabalise the Vagus nerve, smother the patient with a pillow and no more life support events need to continue to sustain it (how does one deactivate the brain actually without a compression shot projectile?).

Not sure what you are saying here, but it doesn't seem to fit anything I just said.

Then one is Original Soul Less.

I'm not sure there is a soul, but if there is, I see no reason for it to be in a meat pump.

NO; how do you know or impart this very ugly comment (accusation); AND HOW COULD THAT BE your 'intuition' tells you so?

Because you don't seem to know much about kiddies.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


There is no "life current" per se. It's all biology.

Arnie123
Well, whatever the case may be, I like to add the mental aspect of it...
Yes the mental aspect, their will be days where I would have hardly eaten an drank any water at all, but just knowing that the day is coming to an end and my favorite to do is around the corner, I suddenly just come alive, awaken, powered up, run that last 2 miles down the street....lol, mainly on ruck marches this happens...
Perhaps Bedlams ATPs and peoples mental capacities at that moment are perfect energy boosts beyond the norm.

This is where the what some call the 'paranormal' occurance comes into play. Its not really that, its the Non Physical Material Reality; interjecting an idea to you to buck up; "we are here supporting you in your efforts". The NPMR is just as viable as the PMR. This whole world this universe is based upon profitibility; gain..You mentally are relieing upon reserves, hormonal excretions (this is how we bounce). What is a ruck march Arnie123? Is that like 80lbs packed 5 miles uphill to do in 20 minutes? Thankyou for your reply. Im still 'window shade IS down' on understanding the ATP. Had the same problem with trig/calculus. Geometry though? piece of cake.