Fukushima radiation… what you need to know and why

RickinVa
people are allowing themselves to get caught by efforts of others to change the subject.

Talking about dams vs nuclear power is pure thread drift.


Again, would anybody like to talk about the new high reading 0f 3,100,000 bq per liter of beta emitters taken at test well 1-16 on 1/20/14?

www.tepco.co.jp...


Anybody?

Doesn't matter what well the sample was taken from so don't go there.....I don't care if it came from the mens toilet in the control room, it's strictly about the new record level that was recorded and the fact that here we are almost 3 years later and they are still finding new record levels? That just doesn't make logical sense and doesn't make a very good case for "containment".


Please try to stick to the topic of Fukushima and radiation from it. Debating the virtues of nuclear power belongs in another forum altogether.

edit on R272014-01-23T14:27:42-06:00k271Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R322014-01-23T14:32:29-06:00k321Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R482014-01-23T15:48:21-06:00k481Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R482014-01-23T15:48:55-06:00k481Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

This is why people who have no clue about a nuclear plant should not try to read their reports. Do you realize there are hundreds of wells onsite they lead to their underground storage tanks where the heavy water is located. i heard somewhere about 300 tons of coolant water is stored meaning that be at least 800 tanks most likely more.When they built the plant they would build an underground tanks to store all that water! Obviously reading one of the tanks alerted them to a problem and let me tell you why. When you see the beta particles jump up it tells you there is a low level of water in that tank. Which means the tank is broken and allowing water to seep out as the water leaves the tank leaving stuff like tritium behind the amount per liter increases. This radiation level is not and repeat is not what is leaking into the environment its a tank reading from one of their wells. notice how another tank taken the same day yet only 30 feet away is much lower. It tells us that well is holding its water like it was meant to. What you want is environmental studies not there well readings if you want to determine the amount of radiation in the environment.It does let them know that water seeping out of the tank may be entering ground water but in what amounts would require offshore readings.

Ps i will chk the net see if they posted environmental studies probably only do them every couple of months there exhaustive and cost alot of money.

reply to post by wishes


You just don't understand what you are reading. Those are tank readings from INSIDE the plant.


Edit: Dragon beat me to it. Basically classic example of skimming something you aren't familiar with and going paranoid over it.

raymundoko
reply to post by wishes

 

You just don't understand what you are reading. Those are tank readings from INSIDE the plant.


Edit: Dragon beat me to it. Basically classic example of skimming something you aren't familiar with and going paranoid over it.

edit on 23-1-2014 by raymundoko because: (no reason given)

Not only did I not claim to understand what I was reading - I also did not go paranoid over anything! Please re-read the posts before passing personal judgments - go after the ball and not the player to keep derailing the thread!

reply to post by RickinVa


Welcome to the Chernobyl exclusion zone...beautiful isn't it.

www.slate.com... l

So uninhabitable...

Would I live there? HELL NO! THAT PLACE IS CANCER WAITING TO HAPPEN!

So you and I are using different definitions of uninhabitable, and I think I am using the right one. I think what you are meaning to say is inhospitable or dangerous.

In fact, no matter what you want to believe, people ACTUALLY LIVE IN THE EXCLUSION ZONE! As long as they don't eat anything grown in the zone, or water that is sourced in the zone, they live quite well.

www.spiegel.de...

That woman is 80...no cancer. Do I want to chance it? HELL NO!

reply to post by wishes


I meant Rick. Sorry, I just hit reply to your post.

And all this nonsense some people in this thread keep putting out: Attack the ball, not the player!

I agree with the statement, but telling someone they don't understand what they are reading is not attacking the player. Anyone who thinks that probably doesn't belong in a thread that is over their head scientifically. Now if you meant me saying someone was paranoid is attacking the player, I also disagree, but I will refrain from such wording in the future.

reply to post by dragonridr


prior post

Fukushima Diary has been following this for months and has been posted.

Fukushima Diary






And about those zones you were discussing isn't that where poor people go ?

Obviously reading one of the tanks alerted them to a problem and let me tell you why. When you see the beta particles jump up it tells you there is a low level of water in that tank. Which means the tank is broken and allowing water to seep out as the water leaves the tank leaving stuff like tritium behind the amount per liter increases. This radiation level is not and repeat is not what is leaking into the environment its a tank reading from one of their wells.

I would sleep a lot better if you could provide any sort of documentation, procedure, manual, pictures, reference or a commercially available system you have in a trade magazine ? My understanding is the Fukushima prints are unavailable.

How about an explanation or reasoning how this would work ? Does the tritium (heavy water) float ?
Please, help me understand.

donlashway
reply to post by dragonridr

 

prior post

Fukushima Diary has been following this for months and has been posted.

Fukushima Diary

edit on 23-1-2014 by donlashway because: (no reason given)

And about those zones you were discussing isn't that where poor people go ?

edit on 23-1-2014 by donlashway because: (no reason given)

Obviously reading one of the tanks alerted them to a problem and let me tell you why. When you see the beta particles jump up it tells you there is a low level of water in that tank. Which means the tank is broken and allowing water to seep out as the water leaves the tank leaving stuff like tritium behind the amount per liter increases. This radiation level is not and repeat is not what is leaking into the environment its a tank reading from one of their wells.

I would sleep a lot better if you could provide any sort of documentation, procedure, manual, pictures, reference or a commercially available system you have in a trade magazine ? My understanding is the Fukushima prints are unavailable.

edit on 23-1-2014 by donlashway because: (no reason given)

Thanks for posting that chart... saves me the trouble of creating my own.

dragonridr

RickinVa
people are allowing themselves to get caught by efforts of others to change the subject.

Talking about dams vs nuclear power is pure thread drift.


Again, would anybody like to talk about the new high reading 0f 3,100,000 bq per liter of beta emitters taken at test well 1-16 on 1/20/14?

www.tepco.co.jp...


Anybody?

Doesn't matter what well the sample was taken from so don't go there.....I don't care if it came from the mens toilet in the control room, it's strictly about the new record level that was recorded and the fact that here we are almost 3 years later and they are still finding new record levels? That just doesn't make logical sense and doesn't make a very good case for "containment".


Please try to stick to the topic of Fukushima and radiation from it. Debating the virtues of nuclear power belongs in another forum altogether.

edit on R272014-01-23T14:27:42-06:00k271Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R322014-01-23T14:32:29-06:00k321Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R482014-01-23T15:48:21-06:00k481Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R482014-01-23T15:48:55-06:00k481Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

This is why people who have no clue about a nuclear plant should not try to read their reports. Do you realize there are hundreds of wells onsite they lead to their underground storage tanks where the heavy water is located. i heard somewhere about 300 tons of coolant water is stored meaning that be at least 800 tanks most likely more.When they built the plant they would build an underground tanks to store all that water! Obviously reading one of the tanks alerted them to a problem and let me tell you why. When you see the beta particles jump up it tells you there is a low level of water in that tank. Which means the tank is broken and allowing water to seep out as the water leaves the tank leaving stuff like tritium behind the amount per liter increases. This radiation level is not and repeat is not what is leaking into the environment its a tank reading from one of their wells. notice how another tank taken the same day yet only 30 feet away is much lower. It tells us that well is holding its water like it was meant to. What you want is environmental studies not there well readings if you want to determine the amount of radiation in the environment.It does let them know that water seeping out of the tank may be entering ground water but in what amounts would require offshore readings.

Ps i will chk the net see if they posted environmental studies probably only do them every couple of months there exhaustive and cost alot of money.

edit on 1/23/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

Thanks for providing evidence that just backs up what we already know,,,, water leaks at Fukushima is a serious issue.

You know, sometimes the irony of Fukushima astounds me.

We can put a man on the moon.
We can rendezvous a probe to a land on an asteroid in outer space.
We can send robots to Mars.


Tepco can't even get a single camera down what ever is left of 3 reactors to tell us exactly where the cores went. As far as we know, that is.


It never ceases to amaze me, it truly doesn't.

Finding out the exact state of the melted cores is very important to be able to assess long term damage.... here we are almost 3 years later and we still do not know. Incredible to say the least.

RickinVa

dragonridr

RickinVa
people are allowing themselves to get caught by efforts of others to change the subject.

Talking about dams vs nuclear power is pure thread drift.


Again, would anybody like to talk about the new high reading 0f 3,100,000 bq per liter of beta emitters taken at test well 1-16 on 1/20/14?

www.tepco.co.jp...


Anybody?

Doesn't matter what well the sample was taken from so don't go there.....I don't care if it came from the mens toilet in the control room, it's strictly about the new record level that was recorded and the fact that here we are almost 3 years later and they are still finding new record levels? That just doesn't make logical sense and doesn't make a very good case for "containment".


Please try to stick to the topic of Fukushima and radiation from it. Debating the virtues of nuclear power belongs in another forum altogether.

edit on R272014-01-23T14:27:42-06:00k271Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R322014-01-23T14:32:29-06:00k321Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R482014-01-23T15:48:21-06:00k481Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

edit on R482014-01-23T15:48:55-06:00k481Vpm by RickinVa because: (no reason given)

This is why people who have no clue about a nuclear plant should not try to read their reports. Do you realize there are hundreds of wells onsite they lead to their underground storage tanks where the heavy water is located. i heard somewhere about 300 tons of coolant water is stored meaning that be at least 800 tanks most likely more.When they built the plant they would build an underground tanks to store all that water! Obviously reading one of the tanks alerted them to a problem and let me tell you why. When you see the beta particles jump up it tells you there is a low level of water in that tank. Which means the tank is broken and allowing water to seep out as the water leaves the tank leaving stuff like tritium behind the amount per liter increases. This radiation level is not and repeat is not what is leaking into the environment its a tank reading from one of their wells. notice how another tank taken the same day yet only 30 feet away is much lower. It tells us that well is holding its water like it was meant to. What you want is environmental studies not there well readings if you want to determine the amount of radiation in the environment.It does let them know that water seeping out of the tank may be entering ground water but in what amounts would require offshore readings.

Ps i will chk the net see if they posted environmental studies probably only do them every couple of months there exhaustive and cost alot of money.

edit on 1/23/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

Thanks for providing evidence that just backs up what we already know,,,, water leaks at Fukushima is a serious issue.

Once again your having a problem with understanding the situation. Lets explain it this way dirt will act as a natural filter allowing water to seep out but at the same time acts like a filter to heavier elements like tritium etc. Works alot like an oil filter in your car. Oil passes through the heavier sludge gets caught in the filter. This is why the radiation level spikes when measured per liter. There is less water but the same amount of radioactive material and you end up with huge numbers per liter. Now your right its a serious issue because they need that water to keep the fuel rods cool.Your looking at 3 to 5 years to cool them down. See when a fuel rod is exposed to air it has to rely on air convection to remove heat and its just not capable of removing enough heat.Where water is forced convection meaning as water heats up cooler water travels under it. Now since we have never had a fuel rod melt down we are not entirely sure what happens. But lets say i wouldnt want to be around if one does.

reply to post by RickinVa


Kinda makes me wanna get some california seafood.


Ya dont wanna live forever do ya?
It would be cruel and unusual.

reply to post by RickinVa


I couldn't agree with the sentiment of this post more.

RickinVa
You know, sometimes the irony of Fukushima astounds me.

We can put a man on the moon.
We can rendezvous a probe to a land on an asteroid in outer space.
We can send robots to Mars.


Tepco can't even get a single camera down what ever is left of 3 reactors to tell us exactly where the cores went. As far as we know, that is.


It never ceases to amaze me, it truly doesn't.

Finding out the exact state of the melted cores is very important to be able to assess long term damage.... here we are almost 3 years later and we still do not know. Incredible to say the least.

The cores didnt go anywhere the core is simply an area where a nuclear reaction can occur. In a reactor fuel rods are hung in a reaction chamber. with lead shielding separating them you want to increase the reaction rate you raise the shielding want to stop it you lower them completely. This is what was done now there in the process of removing the fuel rods themselves and placing them into pools of water. This is complicated because most of the equipment to remove the rods was destroyed so its a very slow process.

RickinVa
Tepco can't even get a single camera down what ever is left of 3 reactors to tell us exactly where the cores went. As far as we know, that is.

Michio Kaku says at time index 3m40s in the following video that they did put cameras in the reactors:

Michio Kaku -- The True State of Fukushima

However when the cameras get too close to the cores they are probably "blinded" by the radiation. I remember it took a very long time before the radiation in the three mile island reactor subsided enough to allow a camera to see what had happened to the core...they had to wait more than 10 years to get those images. I won't be surprised if it takes even longer to get good images of the cores at Fukushima since apparently unit 2 melted even worse then the three mile island core, which the camera showed had melted far worse than most people suspected.

dragonridr
The cores didnt go anywhere the core is simply an area where a nuclear reaction can occur. In a reactor fuel rods are hung in a reaction chamber. with lead shielding separating them you want to increase the reaction rate you raise the shielding want to stop it you lower them completely. This is what was done now there in the process of removing the fuel rods themselves and placing them into pools of water. This is complicated because most of the equipment to remove the rods was destroyed so its a very slow process.

See above video where starting at just before 3 minutes, Michio Kaku says that the core in unit 2 is completely molten. If the core is completely molten in unit 2, would that mean there are no fuel rods to remove?

My understanding is they lower the cameras in from the top, but this view doesn't show the bottom of the corium, so that's why there's some uncertainty about how far down the bottom of the corium has traveled. I remember in Chernobyl they considered evacuating the ground under the reactor to put some extra barriers underneath the corium to prevent it from ever reaching ground water. They decided not to do this years ago but apparently they are still considering it decades later, as it could still be an issue.

Doing something like this at Fukushima is much more complicated due to the high water table and flooding of any evacuated area in addition to the radiation levels, though there are extremely complicated and costly engineering solutions, but they still need to design robots that can tolerate such high levels of radiation, I think. I can't remember if it was this video or another video by Michio Kaku where he contrasts the the urgent reaction by the soviet military to the Chernobyl accident with the poor planning and delays in responding to the Fukushima accident. Kaku is a little over the top at times but I think he's got a PhD in nuclear physics so he does have some idea of what he's talking about.

dragonridr

RickinVa
You know, sometimes the irony of Fukushima astounds me.

We can put a man on the moon.
We can rendezvous a probe to a land on an asteroid in outer space.
We can send robots to Mars.


Tepco can't even get a single camera down what ever is left of 3 reactors to tell us exactly where the cores went. As far as we know, that is.


It never ceases to amaze me, it truly doesn't.

Finding out the exact state of the melted cores is very important to be able to assess long term damage.... here we are almost 3 years later and we still do not know. Incredible to say the least.

The cores didnt go anywhere the core is simply an area where a nuclear reaction can occur. In a reactor fuel rods are hung in a reaction chamber. with lead shielding separating them you want to increase the reaction rate you raise the shielding want to stop it you lower them completely. This is what was done now there in the process of removing the fuel rods themselves and placing them into pools of water. This is complicated because most of the equipment to remove the rods was destroyed so its a very slow process.

Yes the fuel rods melted down there now sitting in the bottom of the reactor. They managed to shut it off well i say they did in truth it melted dropped down and instead of continuing the reaction it stopped.Luckily it never came in contact with air because i suspect in a moulten stage it would have just exploded. Here this has a neat graphic of the reactor.

seeker401.wordpress.com...

reply to post by donlashway


I've already posted images of the exclusion zone as well as interviews with people who live in it.

You also have an unsubstantiated video made by an extremely anti nuclear power group, and none of the children in the video have ever even been near Chernobyl...

It is not uncommon in Russia for parents of handicapped children to claim Chernobyl to be the cause so they can get more assistance from the government. It also helps the parent to think it wasn't their fault (which it usually isn't anyway). The doctor in the video, Helen Caldicott, has been questioned several times about how she finds the patients she claims are the result of Chernobyl radiation. She always refuses to answer, just like she did in Pandora's Promise. She is one of the people who helped make the video you linked, yet even in the video she gives no information on where the disabled children were born, grew up, or where their pregnant mother had been in her life.

She also updates her own Wikipedia page with different credentials or events, but they are almost always removed because she can't give citations or proof.

Current example: en.wikipedia.org...

Dr. Caldicott spoke to a standing room only crowd at the Faulkner Gallery in Santa Barbara on Friday 23 March 2012 on "The Medical Implications of Fukushima, Nuclear Power and Nuclear Proliferation".[citation needed]

Notice the "citation needed" part. That's her MO. Make herself seem like an expert, spout false claims, rinse, repeat.

I almost feel like you didn't actually watch all 3 hours of the documentary...I did.

phronesisaical.blogspot.com...
enochthered.wordpress.com...

See, as a scientist, I don't just watch a video and tear up because...children...I research who made the video, what their motive was and what their academic history is.

reply to post by dragonridr


Different types of filters capture different types of material.

Do you have any evidence that the dirt filters out these heavier elements in this waster water?

I don't think you understand how filtration works.

Fukushima and the ALPS fiasco..

I am going to keep this short and simple and very basic. I am not going to use any figures other than for example purposes because I do not want it misread.

Tepco desperately needed a way to deal with the radioactive water at Fukushima. Tepco got with Toshiba and Energy Solutions to find a solution.

The solution was the Advanced Liquid Processing System (ALPS).

ALPS has the “capability” to filter out 99% of the radionuclides from water. And it probably does in the lab. ALPS was tested extensively I am sure.

There was just one slight little problem with ALPS…. ALPS works at the atom level to remove the radionuclides and is very efficient at what it does. IN THE LAB. I can just see the people running around their lab with all their drawings, happily mixing radionuclides into sterile water and then jumping for joy as the system removed the 99% of radionuclides as they expected. Scientific experiments have to be done under very controlled circumstances. They have to be repeatable and verifiable.

Do you see the problem yet?

The problem is that real life is not a lab, and the whole system was designed on a basic flaw that should have been caught long before it was fielded.

Instead of using that liter of sterile water, they should have went out back and got a liter of water out of a ditch and used that for their experiments, we might not be where we are today if they had.

The water to be reprocessed by ALPS at Fukushima isn’t exactly sterile lab water and that’s where the problems started kicking in.

The water being recycled at Fukushima contains a multitude of stuff besides radionuclides such as dirt, silt, chemicals, particulate matter, etc. It’s far from being sterile water in a lab.

I won’t go into to details, but basically the way radionuclides act when other material is in the water is different from the way they act in sterile clean water.

The first test runs of ALPS at Fukushima were dismal. The results were nowhere near 99% removal, in fact it was quite the opposite.

Houston, we have a problem!

Houston, we have a solution!!

The answer they decided was to filter the water before it went into the water filter.


Sounds good at first.

But filtering out as much of the foreign material in the water as possible has led to new problems. Large amounts of highly radioactive toxic sludge is created that has to be stored somewhere for thousands of years.

Therein lies the problem. ALPS quickly went from being a game changer to a major headache for Tepco.

ALPS is currently shut down and the regulatory people are hard on Tepco to come up with a viable plan for long term storage of the radioactive sludge generated by ALPS. Heck the containers Tepco got to put the sludge in hasn’t met Japanese government safety standards such as the drop test. Now we all know that storing nuclear waste long term is completely safe and has no effect on the local environment nor could it ever leak into the local environment.... cough cough Hanford cough cough

From what I have researched, it is my understanding that Tepco is unable to purify the water enough (through whatever filtration systems they have set up) prior to ALPs to achieve 99% removal.

Bottom line:

ALPS is highly inefficient at filtering radioactive water due to the amount of highly radioactive byproduct such as sludge. But then again, I guess they can dump all the sludge in the Pacific Ocean…..


If this stuff wasn’t so sad it would almost be laughable.

www.fukuleaks.org...

ex-skf.blogspot.com...

www.lewrockwell.com...

www.japantimes.co.jp...

TEPCO has been facing severe criticism for its failed management of contaminated water at the Fukushima Daiichi plant. Katsuhiko Ikeda, the secretary general for the Nuclear Regulation Authority, said in October that many of the problems at the crippled facility are caused by a lack of basic checks. During test runs in June, TEPCO identified that some of the batch treatment tanks had holes in the welds. In July, the ALPS system was shut down for inspections after corroded parts and other problems were identified. The system failed again in September after a rubber sheet left in one of the tanks obstructed the flow of water and clogged a drain. In October, the system was shut down due to programming errors and mistakes. Last month, the system was shut down once again, after the water which was being processed began to corrode one of the tanks. Critics are worried that TEPCO is relying too much on the ALPS system and do not have enough contingency options if the system is unable to perform as expected.

enformable.com...

So lets just call ALPS what it really is..... OOPS

www.pref.chiba.lg.jp...

2 The Latest Measurement Result
Date Iodine-131 Caesium-134 Caesium-137
January 20（Monday）
Not detected Not detected Not detected
※Not detected indicates that the radiation levels do not exceed the detection limit.

reply to post by raymundoko


What about Strontium, which is most of the radioactive material in the waste water?

Why aren't they reporting those results?