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Imperial Hubris

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posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:01 PM
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Imperial Hubris by Anonymous (Michael Scheuer) is a book anyone interested in the war on terror should read.

This is a man who lived and breathed Usama Bin Laden and Islam for more than 10 years. He has a lot of interesting things to say. Some very controvertial, but everything he says in the book makes a great deal of sense.

I was one who thought getting rid of Saddam and putting Democracy into Iraq (and Afghanistan for that matter) would be doing the world a great favor. I still think that would be great, but sadly, impossible. The book got me thinking about things a little differently. That's what the author wanted, I know.

I think the author is correct that the thing to do now is to become independent from desert oil, pull out of the middle east and let them fight it out over there all by their lonesome. May the better man win.

The people over there don't want to be abused by their tyrants, but they don't want democracy either. I say bomb Iran's nuclear capabilities to dust, ditto for N. Korea if possible and at the same time walk away.

If the Islamists still wanna fight, then we (U.S., Canada, all the Christian countries) take the boots to em like we did the Nazis and Japan. After defeating them or at least bloodying them bad enough that they won't think twice about ever hitting the U.S. again, we just let them be.

Their problems aren't our problems. They are not like us, so screw em. The old rule to look out for number one is something to think about. My family is much more important to me than any Islam believer that "might" want to hurt them.

It's time to wake up.




posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:09 PM
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You reap what you sow. It's better to not stick your nose in other's peoples business for monetary gains.

Are you trying to say that the US foreign policy for the last half century have no connection to the war now?

If you are looking for the source, you don't have to go far to find it.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:24 PM
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This guy's a complete jackass. He basically says we should appease the terrorists and give in to their demands.

Complete stupidity.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:27 PM
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What are their demands?



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:47 PM
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Read the book and then criticize my comments. I am definately not a pacifist who wants to give into these animals. If we don't need the oil, what is there for us over there.

Nothing.

We can be self sufficient and we get the bonus of being able to watch these animals tear each other apart. Good television, if you ask me.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:50 PM
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The US without need for oil. hahahahaha

sorry. What are their demands by the way. The arabs are scapegoats. Follow the blood money. It's in dollars.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 10:58 PM
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Alternate sources of energy, man. Tell me it can't be done.

The islamist zealots want the western democrocies (primarily U.S.) out of all islamic countries and to stop supporting Isreal and other countries that harm muslims.

That's reasonable. If we don't need the oil, we don't need to keep Saudi Arabia and the other tyrants propped up. Let them stand on their own or get eaten by the hordes of angry muslims.

I don't have anything against muslims, but they clearly don't think the way we do and don't want us. Let them kill each other without killing anymore young Americans than we have to. If they still won't leave us alone, then carpet bomb all their cities.

Problem solved. Think of it as us or them. Then get it done.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:05 PM
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I favor people being different. It makes life interesting. Entertaining even.

The "muslims" are doing what I expected them to do. And the "christians" are reacting just as scripted.

Have you ever considered that you are no different than them. I have walked the earth and have yet to see any one culture being much different than others. What seperates you from them? A cellphone in one ear? three cars to one family?



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:15 PM
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Hey, I got no beefs with any culture that is different than mine, but don't tell me that there aren't differences. Physically we are the same (basically). But mentally, we are entirely different. I don't think we are superior to anyone. Our beliefs make us very different.

One society forces their women to wear burkas and stones them to death if it is even whispered that she was with a man inappropriately. We're far from perfect, but very different. These people are taught to despise us from the moment they're popped into the world. They aren't bad, just brought up different than us.

You're right about one thing though. We are reacting just as UBL wanted us to. We're now infuriating many millions more muslims all the time. He's a prick, but he is clever.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:22 PM
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Consider the source of what you read. I have read that exact quote or did you pull that from your own subconscious? Interesting. Are you sure you are not brainwashed into repeating those mantra?

Have you ever been in any of these muslim countries? They are 1/5 of the planet?

I find the muslim society no different than Hindus, Budhist. What seperates you are technology, you can afford them, they can't.

It's all about fashion then? I have been told that the burkas are to protect women. Some have taken it to the extreme and demand it's use.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:33 PM
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I really hate to burst your bubble, but I suspect that much of what you know and say are things that you have heard other people say or things that you read. That my friend is called learning.

Yes, some of what I type is what I have read and/or heard others say. I use my own experience and thoughts along with what I've taken in from other sources to form my own opinions. There only so many opinions on this subject. Are your opinions all your own?

Me thinks not.

You don't have to tell me how many muslims there are. Anybody and his dog knows that these days. If you think fashion and what the young-uns these days call bling, then you are a fool. You're lucky that you're a fool in the West where you'll be semi safe.

Wake up and smell the coffee before several of those "just like me" muslims blows up one of our cities.

Maybe you're confused because I seem to be including all muslims in the bad ledger. I'm not. There are good and bad everywhere. Sometimes the other guy's innocent people have to pay to keep our innocent people from paying. It sucks, but that's life in the big city.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:52 PM
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I don't buy it. I don't buy the notion that a group of people, and you condemn 1/5th of planet when you say muslim, just decided one day to kill all western nations.

If that was the case, you have to say they are courageous to take on the most militaristic society in history. Why not invade your country Canada. It would be much easier.

You have power, you use it. It's just history read between the lines.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 12:17 AM
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Agreed. There are very brave people. I don't remember saying that they just one day decided anything. I guess I didn't not say it either. Hmmm...

Not to worry. We (Canada) will be getting our share soon enough. It's the U.S. with all the power. That's why targeting your country is what they're doing. The hatred for the U.S. has be building for decades. It's just taken one man and his group to start pulling all like minded muslims together.

Make no mistake, these boys ain't going away until they take a great deal of pain, unless of course, we keep our heads up our asses and try to ignore them.

It may not be obvious at the moment, but it will become us or them. It's just a matter of time. If we could pick through them and kill only the bad ones, then that would be great. We can't. We can assume that 90% or more of the muslims here are here because they want to be and actually like western society. But the ones left in the middle east may have to thrown out with the wash in order to save ourselves.

Sorry, but them's the breaks.

Now I'm off to bed. I gotta get some rest before that Jihad gets here.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Justanotherperson
What are their demands?



This is an excerpt from the book:
    First, the end of all U.S. aid to Israel, the elimination of the Jewish state, and in its stead the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state. Second, the withdrawal of all U.S. and Western military forces from the Arabian peninsula a shift of most units from Saudi Arabia to Qatar fools no Muslims and will not cut the mustard and all Muslim territory. Third, the end of all U.S. involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq. Fourth, the end of U.S. support for, and acquiescence in, the oppression of Muslims by the Chinese, Russian, Indian, and other governments. Fifth, restoration of full Muslim control over the Islamic world's energy resources and a return to market prices [sic], ending the impoverishment of Muslims caused by oil prices set by Arab regimes to placate the West. Sixth, the replacement of U.S.-protected Muslim regimes that do not govern according to Islam by regimes that do. For bin Laden, only Mullah Omar's Afghanistan met these criteria; other Muslim regimes are candidates for annihilation.

    We can either reaffirm current policies, thereby denying their role in creating the hatred bin Laden personifies, or we can examine and debate the reality we face, the threat we must defeat, and then if deemed necessary devise policies that better suit U.S. interests.

    For our own welfare and survival, we must 'watch others die with equanimity' and help after 'the flames burn themselves out' by focusing our overseas intercourse on trade, sharing knowledge, and donating food and medicine.
This is textbook appeasement and complete stupidity.

100 years of appeasing tyrants and murderers and some people still haven't learned.

The guy's a moron and this book is disturbing to say the least.

Disturbing that people like him are still involved in advising the president on matters of war and peace.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Justanotherperson
I favor people being different. It makes life interesting. Entertaining even.

The "muslims" are doing what I expected them to do. And the "christians" are reacting just as scripted.

Have you ever considered that you are no different than them. I have walked the earth and have yet to see any one culture being much different than others. What seperates you from them? A cellphone in one ear? three cars to one family?


I don't care what country you've been to if you think they're no different than we you're crazy. Watch a girl get circumcized with a blunt blade and no anethesia and tell me they're just like us. Watch the Saudis cut off the head of a person who excercises his or her freedom of religion (doesn't exist) and tell me they're just like us. Read about the honor killings in Pakistan and tell me they're just like us. Read about the Nigerian stoning case and tell me they're just like us. I mean, I could go on forever here.

You have some serious self-loathing issues. Seek therapy.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 10:49 AM
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I didn't like the appeasement tone of the book at first either. You have to look past that to see what the man is saying. He says that there are basically two options.

1: Give in to the demands (appeasement)

OR

2: Stop playing games with these animals and get down and dirty with them. Don't say that you've taken the gloves off when in reality, you have not.

The world has to come to terms with the fact that this is basically a 3rd world war. We can not fart around with these people. These are not a bunch of dummies. They are intelligent and firmly believe that what they are doing is right. They will destroy us if given the chance.

The author is just pointing out the choices. Both choices suck, but they are the only real ones we have. He is telling us that we need to choose what we are going to do and then start doing it now.

If we choose 1, then it's a pretty safe bet that we'll still have to fight these pigs. The good thing with that is that before they get to us, we get to watch them take out the tyrants of the middle east. Then when there is nobody left for them to conquer, we'll have to bomb em to hell.

If we choose 2, then we get to bomb the crap out of them sooner. To win this type of war, it will mean the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of evil and good people.

The author is just trying to point out the choices and get us moving on them.

If we wait long enough, they will come to us again.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 01:28 AM
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Hey Ibn Iblis, did you read the entire book?

that quote you had from the book is simply a reiteration of what Bin Laden demands of the west and not the author's position on these issues.


The author stated some of his believes in the last chapter and he said these are all up to debate. He has pretty much two solutions

1. Fight a LOT harder than what we do now
OR
2. Change lots of our policies


The book is called Imperial Hubris as to warn the US of its own Hubris. That is the US is overestimating its capabilities just like every empire in history had done and the sad part is that hubris is often followed by defeat.

Many of his suggestions are extremely hawkish, more than the current administration in fact.

I see NO signs of appeasement in his book.






[edit on 21-11-2004 by white_raven0]




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