Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

Christianity, like all religious movements, was born from myth-making; and nowhere is this clearer than when you check out the context from which Jesus sprang. The supposed historical underpinning of Jesus, which apologists insist differentiates their Christ from the myriad other savior gods and divine sons of the ancient pagan world, simply does not hold up to investigation.

On the contrary, the closer we examine the official story, or rather stories, of Christianity (or Christianities!), the quicker it becomes apparent that the figure of the historical Jesus has traveled with a bodyguard of widely accepted, seldom examined untruths for over two millennia…

It’s true enough that the majority of Biblical historians do not question the historicity of Jesus but then again, the majority of Biblical historians have always been Christian preachers, so what else could we expect them to say?

Thank God For Roman Nails?!

GalzuFromQ
vethumanbeing
GalzuFromQ
texastig
windword

(not sure who said what)
LOL! The Bible doesn't prove the Bible is true! You can't use the Bible to prove Bible stories are true!


Yes they are true, because the Bible is 66 books, written by over 40 authors over a time span of 1,500 years with the message of redemption of mankind through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins.

Seems you know the path to redemption, may I ask... what is the path to redemption? Melchizedek is the Lord, AKA the holy spirit... not Jesus.

vethumanbeingThat order of the Melchizedek is not one to be trifled with; and Jesus was just a templated form of.

GalzufromQI know, I'm _VERY_ familiar with The Order of Melchizedek.

This is a good thing; so you understand they are the directors of instructors. As the justice system of the detention planets and in charge of a beings experiencing premature body/death or an inabilty to connect with its inner soul adjuster, they are powerful beings. No one can positively say Machiventa Melchizedek was actually the 'priest of Salem(Jeruselem)' and lived to be 370 years of age (did this happen here or off world). Kind of like trying to discuss the phenom of Noah; if so was stepped down in frequency to manifest and was responsible for bringing a sense of order to evolve small city/state civilizations that eventually particulated, in the middle east nomadic shiekdoms killed it (the idea of a township) one that could be barracaded, trade routes besieged. The ideas were there to bring stasis or normalcy; but there was always the boomerang thrower to disrupt the process; generally the next village over wanting the women, the children, land and usership of. I look at Scotland and England and the 100s of years of in fighting trials there; other part of the world and the same behaviors. Its enough to make my eyes bleed. Perhaps the 'Jerusalem' in the bible mentioned one time only refers to "Jerusem' an off world other dimensional place that oversees the management of damaged or non-perfect soul beings in progress?

Gryphon66
A2D:

Don't smash your keyboard or your head. Let's approach the question a different way.

You've presented your evidence, others have presented theirs. Our opinions on all "sides" of the issue remain basically the same. (Although, I will admit, I have had to tear into some of my own beliefs as we've gone through it to figure out why they're there.)
(That's the value of our discussions, by the way.)

Your posts seem a bit ... COMMITTED, you might say to getting one or more of us on the "no Historical Jesus" side to ... what? Admit defeat? Accept Jesus? Go against everything our reason and experience tells us in light of the evidence?

What is it that you want, and further, why do you care what we (I) think about Jesus? A different opinion is not a threat.

~~~~~~

To answer your question about the Jews inventing Christ, I'll admit, those are some good points to consider (and that was not my "thesis" you asked for a scenario, I gave you one) ... and they're the same points to consider if you believe that the Jews (some Jews) ACCEPTED the Jesus you believe existed. One of the greatest TABOOS in archaic Judaism was anything that made an image of YHVH ... and Jesus would have been the ultimate Image, right? They were repulsed by the idea. One of the greatest revolts in Jerusalem erupted when Caligula tried to put his image into the Temple. Even the histories you want to accept state that the "Christian" cult was primarily Jewish into the end of the first century.

The same reasons you give are the same reasons for Jews NOT to accept "Jesus" and become the seed-bed for Christianity.

I am committed...but only to historical accuracy. There are some things that are completely open for debate such as Jesus' divinity, but the historical side of things should not be open at all. History is important to know and understand. Ignoring historical facts is something we cannot afford to do, in any case. What I want is a more definitive and absolute version of history. WHY? Because a more solid version of history gives more solid insight....or more applicable knowledge to our future.

And yes I do understand the points I made are the very same reasons Judaism rejects Jesus as the Messiah....but they do not reject his historical existence....

A2D

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Melchizedek is the Lord, AKA the holy spirit... not Jesus.

IMHO He IS the same soul as Jesus just as Adam and just as Hermes.

Reincarnation of the soul happens.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


It becomes easier to understand when you factor in reincarnation of the soul.

Also, it seems archaeologically speaking the evidence is there to confirm stories in the Bible and other ancient texts. Babylonian texts that were found in the late 1800's speak of a flood and an ark. I could go on but I think it's best others do their own homework.

Biblical scholars may not be Christians... I see no evidence of that although I am still looking on the net but haven't found that to be true.

If you factor in NDE's then there is overwhelming evidence to suggest Jesus is real.

One day... sooner than later... we will all see the light.

reply to post by TheWhiteKnight

You bluntly say that Jesus never existed. You have no idea who you are serving.

What?

I beg your pardon, but....???
Kindly SHOW ME where I 'bluntly said that Jesus never existed', please.

reply to post by TheWhiteKnight

At the bottom of it, when they graduate from trinket class, they will be as you. They will agree that Jesus never existed.

They will be "as me"? From 'trinket class'?

Did I recently say, or 'agree', that Jesus never existed?

Again, what are you talking about?
You know what? Don't bother responding. You aren't paying attention, obviously. And, you have to pay attention if you want to come to these meetings.

Ad hom judgment = fail.

reply to post by wildtimes


Yeah, paying attention should be a requirement. I can talk about Jesus and all of a sudden I am called a Christian even after I say I'm not. lol

You never said he didn't exist. You just stated you doubted he was "God".

The fact is he never said he was God. Why would he call himself father? He wouldn't. He even speaks of before Abraham I am. This in my mind is because he was... wait for it..... Melchizedek. lol

reply to post by MamaJ


Hi MamaJ! I disagree somewhat, as you might guess. Things like heart attacks, near-drowning and severe loss of blood can all trigger near death experiences. NDEs have been experienced by thousands of people and have been widely cataloged in a variety of books. Many of these books are "spiritual" or "religious" in nature.

What is not mentioned is that there is a drug called Ketamine that produces all of the elements of an NDE when it is injected into normal, non-dying people. In other words, an NDE is a natural, chemically induced state that the human brain enters. The trigger for an NDE is lack of oxygen to the brain and body. If you read scientific papers like these, you find that there is a completely chemical and completely non-spiritual reason for the features of every NDE.

Is this a direct proof that God is imaginary? No. However, it is a direct proof that the NDE (which many people use as "indisputable" proof that God and eternal life exist) has no supernatural meaning. We can scientificaly prove NDEs to be chemical side-effects rather than "a gateway to the afterlife" as many religious believers claim.

MamaJ
reply to post by wildtimes

MamaJYeah, paying attention should be a requirement. I can talk about Jesus and all of a sudden I am called a Christian even after I say I'm not. lol
You never said he didn't exist. You just stated you doubted he was "God".
The fact is he never said he was God. Why would he call himself father? He wouldn't. He even speaks of before Abraham I am. This in my mind is because he was... wait for it..... Melchizedek. lol

Got to qualify; only if Machiventa Melchizedek was originally of the Essene tradition had to be if Jesus was a reincarnation of (Gnostic). If Jesus was a 'templated' fully formed 9 dimensional being that popped into existance (you wouldnt believe from where and why). For Jesus to be a reincarnated being he would have had to have been many other lifetimes experienced before that fatal mistake of trusting what it percieved was directing it; was speaking to; I just dont see it, and this is why, hes not reincarnated since, and given the idea it takes minimum 150 years to reappear *holding the same prior wisdom* has not manifested in 2000 years? Thats at least 14 future lifetimes as a graduated prophet or seer WASTED (you take your knowledge with you with each incarnation). I understand as a being of his caliber never had to reapear, but it makes no sense considering this is the path individual human souls are quested to (by God as God expressing itself into a further understanding of its own beingness.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


Exactly right, NDE's are a coping mechanism for the body produced by certain chemicals being released into the brain when death seems imminent. They help to ease someone into the thought of dying in my opinion, it makes the process a little easier on the one experiencing near death. Just like hallucinogenics alter the mind, so do near death experiences.

MamaJ
reply to post by wildtimes

 

The fact is he never said he was God. Why would he call himself father? He wouldn't. He even speaks of before Abraham I am. This in my mind is because he was... wait for it..... Melchizedek. lol

In fact he did say he was God.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


Hi!! ;-)

Many of these experiences come from people who have experienced pretty much the same thing. It's a theme after reading soo many of them. Their body hovers over them, they see and hear and smell like normal, they get pulled into a tunnel and either are surrounded by darkness or surrounded by light. The ones in darkness say Jesus come to them and the ones in the light say Jesus came to them. I guess this drug turns atheist's into believers in Jesus and his light and love? Come on...

There is no way to scientifically discount human experience as it is observed. There is more research maybe you can do to seek out the science part of it ... I know I did. You would be surprised if you spend a good amount of hours researching it. There are tons of accounts that have been examined even ones who have remembered past lives. The consciousness goes on. I am sorry to tell you that you will go on. When you die, you will see the light.... well.... depending on how you have treated yourself and others. Its a theme that cannot be ignored and the consciousness has been explored so much it's not even funny. Seek everything you can know about the consciousness. Its "out of this world".

Like you say though... it is natural. Just like breathing.

We can scientificaly prove NDEs to be chemical side-effects rather than "a gateway to the afterlife" as many religious believers claim.

I'm not religious. There are tons of people who experienced such who are not believers. People do not have to be religious to know from history accounts of NDE that an afterlife exists. People that are intuitive or psychic confirm what the NDE's tell us a a whole as well. I don't look at it as "supernatural" either. I look at it as Natural in all senses of the word.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by C21H30O2I

 

Exactly right, NDE's are a coping mechanism for the body produced by certain chemicals being released into the brain when death seems imminent. They help to ease someone into the thought of dying in my opinion, it makes the process a little easier on the one experiencing near death. Just like hallucinogenics alter the mind, so do near death experiences.

edit on 36011717CST363 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Make the fact that you don't know squat about it sound as good as possible for the sound of your own ears and the other squat jockeys out there in la la land.

In fact you may have been experiencing near death hallucinations for years now. Yep a walking talking dosed up dream world believer.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Yeah, he had many incarnations. I believe he was within the Essene community and he married. His incarnations are easy to figure out to... really not hard to see at all.

When you read up on all his lives you see how he evolved throughout time. We do the same thing. WE EVOLVE.. it's natural.

For starters, start with reading all you can about Adam, then Enoch, Melchizedek, Zen, Hermes, Joshua and Jeshua and tell me how he evolved and his relationship with others and God. It's easier to understand Job ( Melchizedek wrote Job).

Logarock
MamaJ
reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimesThe fact is he never said he was God. Why would he call himself father? He wouldn't. He even speaks of before Abraham I am. This in my mind is because he was... wait for it..... Melchizedek. lol

LogarockIn fact he did say he was God.

He must have mis-spoke probably dehydrated therefor delusional. Where do you see this missive (you realize he is not responsible for biblical texts written 70 years after his 'reserrection' by others Luke and Paul specifically). Jesus is only responsible for the big hole of nothingness; that of never writing about his life and travails; its meaning or documenting ANYTHING (so important as not to notate). This is a huge joke played upon humanity; watch us all chase our tails eventually to churn ourselves into butter.

reply to post by Logarock


Wow! Says the guy who believes snakes and bushes talk and people can be dead for 3 days and rise from the dead. Who's living in la la land again?

I don't understand the hostility here. Are you really that insecure with your beliefs that you have to justify it with insults? Wake up mister dreamer.

C21H30O2I
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Is this a direct proof that God is imaginary? No. However, it is a direct proof that the NDE (which many people use as "indisputable" proof that God and eternal life exist) has no supernatural meaning. We can scientificaly prove NDEs to be chemical side-effects rather than "a gateway to the afterlife" as many religious believers claim.

You are not near death, but are already dead. Yes its true and walking around in state of hallucinational life......sort of like a spiritual zombie. Doped up by a chemical that lying to yourself releases in the brain creating a functional mirage, a show of witch you are the star. You call it reality.....but its simply the hallucination to witch you subscribe.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


How would you know he has not come back and is not back? You don't know that. I don't either. We don't know.

Have you ever in your lifetime ran across a teacher that had butt load of wisdom and you wondered how in the world this person knows sooo much, can articulate this wisdom in a way to reach so many people? Manly Hall is someone who knows his stuff. Listen to one of his lectures and tell me he doesn't know his history in mythology, philosophy, religion, energy, and so on... The man is unbelievably wise!

Look at Edgar Cayce... he was a devout Baptist... in church all the time. Taught Sunday school and waited until the end of his life to go in on Tuesdays to teach a class on his gift and the Bible. He taught and wrote things he should not have believed in.

Who was talking through his consciousness? Was this some drug making him heal peoples ailments to? He had presidents coming to him and if he hadn't helped so many people he would not have died at such a young age.

"Edgar Cayce's Story of the Bible" is a grrreat book! It helps make the Bible make sense and it's nothing you would ever hear the church teaching.