Rendlesham Forest…, A Christmas Story from 1980 - Can We ‘Let it Be’?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

It is a pity that TV people can't stick to the facts.
Most of the reports that end up getting the TV treatment have usually been known about within the community for some time.
The urge to sensationalise must compel them in the oddest of ways. I expect they are conditioned to being outside normal reality and the fact that all TV is "make believe" must blur a few lines from their perspective.
Most are laughable but it is important to remember that this applies to pretty much everything on TV.
Seeing isn't always believing, I'm afraid.

a reply to: mirageman

For those not clear on what Tulpa is referring to it is ITVs (now near 20 year old) show on Rendlesham 'Strange But True' . The start of the programme gives the impression that radar operator Mal Scurrah witnessed something strange just prior to the Rendlesham incident occurring on Dec 25th 1980. This incident did happen but actually occurred around a month or two earlier.

Yes that was two A10s colliding on the 18th November. The pilots ejected, one was dragged out to sea by his parachute, the RAF rescue Helicopter attended but the rope from the chute wrapped around the winch and dragged the rescuer off. They both drowned. The second Pilot landed in the forest. I found that checking through Ejection histories of A10s. The were on a training flight from Germany. I spoke to Isaac Koi about this, explaining how the event had been wrapped in the local ufo history, but he snapped something at me about Jenny Randles having found the evidence and the radar operator DID see something on that night.

There is a news article about the A10s in I think the Norfolk Star? I am not sure of the papers name off the top of my head. I am not sure I have those notes on this laptop though. But if you google for the A!0 ejection history you will find the entry on the 18th November.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

I have the audio recordings of the discrepancies. Ronnie and I have been supporting each other with our findings. I am blogging about the show, its all Ronnies words from a long post he put on facebook, coupled with the audio clips of larry saying "I didn't..." then and audio of him actually doing what he said he didn't do. I have known Warren ten years. Friends for nine, he lived with me for six months last year. As you might know I know HIS story well, well enough to know that he has changed almost every element for two reasons. First one I can't mention YET due to a confidentiality agreement, the second was after Adrian Bustinza recorded that last show. He told me as he has told others, he absorbed Adrians account, Can't remember leaving the field but it was daylight. Daylight in winter is about 9am... 4.30 in his book can remember all of it. THEN the best one was that the craft wasn't on Capal Green it was other other side "I got mixed up" he said. What the hell do you mean?? Its at the other side, I got mixed up, I was sure i had the right tree.. Remember he said he marked a tree in his book. So then when you listen to AB's latest show you hear him say they were told to turn RIGHT at East Gate. Now his comments make sense. Now he pint blank refuses to talk about Rendlesham anymore. Come onnnn!!! What??? Yeah he gave that up a long time ago and now he is "in it for the showbiz". I QUOTE.

I have those audio clips and I am not precious. You can have them.

From the facebook page of Penniston:

Book update:
We are happy to announce that Monroe Nevels will be a contributor on our up-and-coming definitive book on the Rendlesham Forest Incident.

Poor fellow… He probably doesn’t realize he is stepping into a time bomb instead of a time machine…

Perhaps he is intentionally lured into the binary corner, who knows? He has been giving away all sorts of interesting information that maybe wasn’t supposed to come out.

a reply to: Guest101

I wonder if he is aware that he is getting sucked into a 100+ year conspiracy
(referring to "the Nine" nonsense).

Kev

a reply to: infomaniachousewife

Yes that was two A10s colliding on the 18th November. The pilots ejected, one was dragged out to sea by his parachute, the RAF rescue Helicopter attended but the rope from the chute wrapped around the winch and dragged the rescuer off. They both drowned. The second Pilot landed in the forest.

I am a bit confused here.

Was the air collision between the A10s allegedly caused by a UFO and was this separate to the incident Mal Scurrah is describing?

The "Strange But True" clip and Fortean Times implies that RAF scrambled 2 Phantoms (although it looks like they used a clip of an RAF Jaguar for the show). This was because radar detected an intrusion into UK airspace during a night flying exercise.

But the source I found for the A10s crashes timed the accident at 9:15 in the morning : aviation-safety.net...

a reply to: mirageman

Mirage and Sacha, does this relate to Butlers question to Halt:

"What fell off an aircraft that had to be covered up?"

"No comment"

a reply to: mirageman

Yeah i reread your original comment.. i misread the at night bit.. apologies. I don't know what he saw then it can't have been the collision. The rumours I have heard from locals about this other ufo incident a month or so before.. I found the A10 crash and wrote it off. Obviously that will have been on radar and the evidence collected. So possibly what dropped into the forest was the pilot. Or other rumours regarding it being the nose cone of an A10 could be true due to the collision. There will have been debris. John Vasquez kept trying to link Rendlesham and Ft Benning and was convinced about something to do with the titanium nose cones and various technologies within it but I could never grasp what he was trying to explain.

So no.. must be an entirely separate incident.

Everything else is hearsay.. As far as Halts comments it could relate to the above, I have heard locals say it was a 'broken arrow' but there are no records of that in any european nuke accidents. I checked.

a reply to: infomaniachousewife

Aah OK.

It is interesting that there was a sort of 'golden age' of rather bizarre UFO events in Britain leading up to Rendlesham. That is of course just my opinion being a kid of the 1970s. But they are some of our most famous cases

We had the Phantom Helicopters, Berwyn around the mid 1970s then the Broadhaven and related incidents around Wales. The very weird Bob Taylor case in late '79 followed by the Zigmund Adamski and Alan Godfrey cases in 1980 and also Rendlesham at the tail end of 1980. There were other incidents either side of the Christmas period as well.

We don't get cases like these any more.

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: mirageman

Mirage and Sacha, does this relate to Butlers question to Halt:

"What fell off an aircraft that had to be covered up?"

"No comment"

I think the answer is probably no to the specific incident involving the A10s.

Isaac Koi has just announced the availability of some more UFO magazines and documents from the 'archives'.

........ the curious decision to go into the woods · very late at night to carry out trace analysis and photography that would have been much easier in daylight, strongly imply to us that the tape recording was a deliberate set-up by the US Air Force to persuade some men to see the lighthouse and interpret it falsely............

Quest Publications - UFO Rendlesham

Barry Greenwood's Rendlesham Case File

Whether they will answer your question I don't know?

But they may help with other details and points of debate. Although I had sort of placed Rendlesham on a back burner a while back it seems I have been dragged back into looking at it again.

a reply to: mirageman

I think it's worth asking where each event was near.

- Broadhaven: undersea detection network
- Alan Godfrey: Menworth Hill
- Phantom Helicopters: ? (Political / paramilitary)
- Rendlesham: OTH radar system
- Bob Taylor: ?
- Berwyn Mountains: ?

Also of interest is this month's Fortean article by Miss Randles. She cautions against 'a stamp collector' mentality and then references that Isaac Koi is working on a huge project. Almost feels contradictory.

My final update is that I listened to the latest phenomenon radio interview, with Dugdale and Butler. This was a long awaited piece and in many ways seemed to be the fuse that lit the public spat with Penniston.

Strangely, it had more to do proving Warren sold one tall tale to the newspapers, then gave us another one. Nothing on Penniston... Nothing ground breaking, more a very well researched final nail in the coffin.

With all that said, I'll throw this out there again: where did warren get the photo of the phenomenon and the underground?

Real or fake? If faked, was he capable or did somebody do the work for him. Work designed to ensnare Bruni by making the phenomena only visible when the original photo was blown up and brightened.

a reply to: mirageman

Were there any famous military communications networks during that era that are no longer in use? That may be the question...

Any ELF for talking to subs...any HAARP or weather control stuff or anything like that?

How about cell phone rates for the UK and cell network maps for the early 80's onward?

I have trouble researching this for my own country...I know almost nothing about yours.

Kev

a reply to: ctj83

My final update is that I listened to the latest phenomenon radio interview, with Dugdale and Butler. This was a long awaited piece and in many ways seemed to be the fuse that lit the public spat with Penniston. Strangely, it had more to do proving Warren sold one tall tale to the newspapers, then gave us another one. Nothing on Penniston... Nothing ground breaking, more a very well researched final nail in the coffin.

- Is there a stream copy of the Dugdale/Butler interview or did you listen live?

With all that said, I'll throw this out there again: where did warren get the photo of the phenomenon and the underground?

The weird thing is that I was glancing through the Barry Greenwood file mentioned earlier and saw this.



It's totally inconclusive but suggests there was a photo out there long before Georgina Bruni laid eyes on it.

Also of interest is this month's Fortean article by Miss Randles. She cautions against 'a stamp collector' mentality and then references that Isaac Koi is working on a huge project. Almost feels contradictory.

Although this is slightly off topic. I think Randles missed the point there. Isaac has been making 'searchable' PDF copies available of magazines and books now out of print. So if you download a whole collection of say 30 magazines you can search the text within by using Windows Explorer. Or search one particular PDF for keywords. I don't think he expects anyone to read everything cover to cover. It's more like providing us with a library of data that was previously unavailable and for us to use specific parts as we see fit.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

The Phantom Choppers were mainly over the North West of England (Cheshire & Derbyshire). Jodrell Bank is in Cheshire and hosts one of the largest radio telescopes in the world. But it's still there.

Berwyn is in the middle of nowhere in the Welsh mountains. There is (or at least was) an RAF communications centre based at Sealand. Deeside (which is bang on the English/Welsh border). The only other major military base is RAF Valley on the island of Anglesey (Wales). But there are a number of smaller 'research' stations and other facilities dotted around the vast coastline we have.

But the major radar and military bases are mainly on or near the south eastern coast of Britain (bottom right hand side of the map below).



Whereas most of the incidents happened in other areas aside from Rendlesham of course. But you are never more than 70 miles from the sea in Britain. We are packed together fairly closely. Most if not all American states are bigger than our mainland. And of course Europe is not too far away either across the Channel.

As far as I know there was no cellular phone network in the UK until the mid 1980s (1985). Which means Rendlesham and the other cases happened beforehand.

a reply to: mirageman

Thanks for the info.

Enough to be interesting but not enough to draw much in the way of correlations.

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

I was with a group of three friends and two children in Glyn Ciriog on Berwyn Mountain in 1997 where we saw a large disc shaped craft and a smaller sphere. I have batted this out for ten years, one of our group overdosed, he could never reconcile what we saw, none of us have been able to but we survived ourselves. Just. That village is ironically four miles from Berwyn. When we went I was nor driving, I couldn't remember where we were apart from the name of the village. The other two surviving witnesses, my son and the other child haven't come forward because of how badly people are treated when they do. Either abused or harassed. 6 witnesses in total. I went back in 2012 and it wasn't until then that I realised where it was.

Back to Rendy. Isaac has been working with Ian Ridpath collating everything available on the subject. I was the idiot who sent him Andrew Pikes book. Fuming about what happened over that. That's what I mean.. Why would anyone want to talk when all that ever happens is people get their teeth kicked in for doing so. Too many sales pitches to protect not enough open minds when it comes to the noise makers.

originally posted by: infomaniachousewife
Isaac has been working with Ian Ridpath collating everything available on the subject.

Well, I certainly had contact with Ian Ridpath about Rendlesham and also quite a few others (including you, Brenda Butler, Jenny Randles and many more) that were kind enough to help with my queries when I spent quite a bit of time looking into Rendlesham in around 2010-2013. I'm grateful to everyone for their time.

But I wouldn't say that I was "working with" Ian more than I was "working with", say, you Sacha. (In fact, I think I've probably got more from you in relation to Rendlesham, and sent you more, than I got from or sent Ian).

I was the idiot who sent him Andrew Pikes book. Fuming about what happened over that.

I'd quibble with your use of the word "idiot" in relation to yourself.



However, you were indeed the person kind enough to send me Andrew Pike's book.

For those that aren't familiar with the relevant minor drama, I'll summarise relevant events to avoid any misunderstandings. (Misunderstandings appear to abound between Rendlesham researchers about all sorts of issues...).

Going back to around 2012, I posted a message for Andrew Pike on various forums (including in a thread here on ATS). That message included the following:

I know from your posts on the old forum at Rendlesham-Incident.co.uk in a thread entitled “Bustinza phone interview,20 april 1984” and another thread entitled “May 2010 Transcript of Col Halt tape “ that you sold your book at a loss at best (and gave some copies away, including to Sacha Christie) due to the costs of self-publishing and the cost of your research. You also said that “to avoid any further smear of being a money maker on the back of this subject, I am going to withdraw rights from the publisher in an email this morning. It's dead and gone! And so am I, that's it!” - so I will not ask if you have any plans to have the second edition printed and sold commercially.

However, if you want, assuming you are the copyright holder, it would be relatively simple to make your book available as a PDF via a free file storage website.

In this way, you could make your work available to those interested without anyone having any grounds whatsoever for suggesting you are seeking to profit from your work (not that I personally see anything wrong with seeking to recover the costs you incurred or even make a profit on them).

Provided you give your permission for your book to be made for free in this way, I'm sure I can sort things out for you so you would not have to lift a finger. I recently did something similar in relation to another UFO book (Willy Smith's "On pilots and UFOs") which his widow decided she would like to make available free of charge to the UFO community
- as I discussed at the thread below:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Given the time and effort you must have put into your book, it would be a shame if it continued to be unavailable to those interested in reading it.

Sacha Christie subsequently kindly loaned me Andrew Pike's book and I scanned it into a searchable PDF. I didn't make that scan available to others simply because I hadn't yet obtained Andrew Pike's permission. (I was, and remain, willing to share the scan subject only to Andrew Pike's permission being obtained. As some of you know, I like to share searchable PDFs of source material in the hope that it will improve the quality of ufological research).

Both Sacha and I made some efforts to seek that permission. I posted on multiple forums and contacted quite a few people to seek that permission, without any response from Andrew Pike.

I was optimistic that Andrew Pike would eventually provide that permission to me via Sacha because:
(1) their respective online posts suggested a friendly, even relatively close, working relationship; and
(2) Andrew Pike's complaint had been that he hadn't been able to sell his book other than at a loss and that he wanted to avoid "any further smear of being a money maker on the back of this subject". Taking those remarks at face value, I thought this possibly implied that he wanted to share his work but didn't want to incur cost when doing so.

Nothing much happened for a couple of years. I had to refuse a few private requests to share the searchable scan of Andrew Pike's book because I had not been able to obtain Andrew Pike's permission to share the scan.

Then in 2014, someone using the username "SkywatcherUK" posted on ATS that the book I had scanned "is a fake" (?!).

I responded to that post on ATS with a few comments and queries.

In a response that I found, um, somewhat hard to understand, "Skywatcher" repeated that the book I had scanned was "a fake" but that Andrew Pike nonetheless held the copyright to this "fake". (Again, ?!).

I found the logic in parts of Andrew Pike's (fake???) book, um, similarly somewhat hard to understand.

In a further post here on ATS, I repeated that I only intended to upload a scan of Andrew Pike's book if I obtained his permission (which I had been seeking for the previous couple of years, without any response from Andrew Pike). I said:

Basically, Andrew Pike indicated that he was stopping any commercial publication of his book “to avoid any further smear of being a money maker on the back of this subject" so I wrote the relevant email offering AS A FAVOUR TO HIM AND THE UFO COMMUNITY to scan and upload his book to a free file storage website IF HE GAVE HIS PERMISSION.

He was the one talking about having published his book at a loss and I was offering a potential solution.

If he doesn't want his book made available for free online without him incurring any costs, that is - of course - up to him. I'll simply move on to other projects where various UFO researchers want my help in helping make their material more easily available without making any profit.

As I had said to "Skywatcher", I simply moved on to other projects.

I'm not sure whether this all involved a bit of a failure of communication. Andrew Pike never responded to me in relation to any of my emails and messages sent via various people and forums. I like to think that I could persuade him that I'm one of the good guys and was, of course, not seeking to profit by offering to make his book freely available online. I could give him links to some of my work.

Why would anyone want to talk when all that ever happens is people get their teeth kicked in for doing so. Too many sales pitches to protect not enough open minds when it comes to the noise makers.

I sometimes get tempted to get involved in this thread or even start another one or two about various interesting issues regarding Rendlesham - but then another one of the numerous heated disagreements between Rendlesham researchers occurs...

a reply to: Defragmentor

It is my opinion that LAEG is a combination of JB and AB's accounts. It is entirely possible other documents are forged. He told me he knew a forger, insisted he didn't use him for his evidence but that he used him to buy items he could sell to the Hard Rock Cafe seeing as that was his job. But he told me... What is that worth? I have been asked why I didn't record him, all I can say is I don't record conversations I have in my house, thats not normal is it?

It is entirely possible. even likely in my OPINION. His discharge code is non existent. He was kicked out after 134 days for stealing papers. "Interested in history" he told his superiors.

Without him handing those papers over for examination, we will never know and that would never happen. I just have to wonder why he isn't badgering Bustinza in the same manner as he did with the rest of them. Interesting that he didn't interview him for his book and wants us all to leave AB alone. Too many holes. I could kick myself for being so blind.

a reply to: IsaacKoi

Aaah I misunderstood what you were doing. I thought you were building on Ians site which as far as I am concerned has been the best reference source for original material there is. I have a lot of time for Ian, I don't know why people have to get so hysterical especially when you consider the fact that Adrian bustinza was repeatedly told "You saw the light house" and when asked if he didn't play along what would happen, he was told bullets are a dime a dozen, bullets are cheap.

As for the idiot comment, I am referring to the fact that I should have known it would get out of hand and he would be attacked. He left ufology because of the way people spoke to him, he left leaving me with permission to use any of his research, to date I have referred to it only, I have never taken advantage of his kindness and thats how he always was with me so you can imagine how I felt when I heard about his treatment. I did feel his book was an important part of the history of RFI and that it should have a place in amongst everything else. When I found out some time later how he had been abused I had to hang my head in shame and regret. I should have known what would happen.

Exactly right re the way no one can have a conversation, the RFI forum was a battle field, every conversation being twisted so it never ended up being what it should have been. I don't care if people believe my theory or not. What difference does it make? People choose whatever suits them best and seeing as no one can relate to humanity at the moment, the ETH theory is favoured. I find Zicklers later career fascinating considering my thoughts on the events.

a reply to: IsaacKoi

Does anyone know if Pike found a publisher for his "final edition" SkywatcherUK mentioned?