It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
macman
So, if a state outlaws same sex marriage you are okay with this?
Benevolent Heretic
No. Because that DOES violate the Constitution (14th Amendment). I do not support a majority making laws to oppress a minority.
Benevolent Heretic
This isn't about rights. It's about equal treatment under the law.
macman
So another person set forth on the pathway of selective laws and enforcement.
Either there are States rights, or there isn't.
... the powers and rights not granted by the U.S. Constitution to the federal government and not forbidden to the states by the Constitution
Either the states get to create laws for say, firearms enforcement, which is clearly against the 2nd Amendment, or they don't.
Either the States get to create a law outlawing gay marriage or they don't.
It is an all or nothing.
Good f%$^ing grief. Another social justice ideal bastardizing US laws.
No, you are completely wrong.
It is all about Laws, period.
You and others want and push for this selective Law enforcement to suit the topic of the month.
This one is Gay rights.
You want rights for the Gay couple, but not for the business owner simply because it goes against your personal viewpoints on it.
It is either freedom and rights for all, or none.
Benevolent Heretic
There are many things you say that I simply don't understand in the context of our discussion. I am not advocating selective laws and enforcement. Just the opposite, in fact. The same laws for EVERYONE. Equal treatment under the law.
Benevolent Heretic
That's just not true. Some laws are passed by the federal government, some by the state governments. States' Rights are
... the powers and rights not granted by the U.S. Constitution to the federal government and not forbidden to the states by the Constitution
Making a law that treats people unequally is expressly FORBIDDEN by the Constitution.
Benevolent Heretic
I'm not going to discuss firearms laws here.
Benevolent Heretic
The Constitution itself disagrees with you. Read the 10th Amendment. Some powers go to the US government, some to the states. However, the 14th Amendment CLEARLY states that making a laws which treat citizens unequally violates the Constitution.
Benevolent Heretic
Um,... that's what I said. It's not about rights, it's about equal treatment under the law.
Benevolent Heretic
That's not what I want at all... You're making things up now.
Benevolent Heretic
There is no such thing as "gay rights". There are rights.
Benevolent Heretic
The gay couple has a legal right to participate in buying a cake from a cake business.
Benevolent Heretic
The business owner does NOT have a legal right to discriminate. You are WRONG in thinking that discrimination in business is a right or a religious practice. That's the single point of contention in our discussion. You think the baker has a "right" to discriminate and he doesn't.
Benevolent Heretic
Agreed.
And for the sake of understanding, if the business owner was an atheist and a Christian couple wanted a cake for a religious celebration, I would support the couple, according to the law. One could hardly say that religion would be my "topic of the month"...
macman
Equal treatment except for the business.
A person gets to decide who they interact with, yet a privately owned business by that same person does not.
It is not equal then.
...
Hence forcing a business to operate in the opposite manner of the owner.
...
And again, the business owner is forced to interact with people he does not want to do business with.
The right to not do business with someone has been removed.
What legal right is that?
Expanded Civil Rights Protections
Effective May 29, 2008, the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act was expanded to include sexual orientation, inclusive of transgender status, to the list of protected classes for public accommodations. Colorado now prohibits discrimination
against individuals because they are straight, lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender in establishments like restaurants, hotels, retail stores, and hospitals.
It is the right of the business not to provide a service if they so chose.
macman
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
Okay, I know the issue here. You believe that there has to a specific law, from the Govt, that states "this is my right/freedom".
Yeah, not the way the US was designed.
It was designed that all freedoms are given first and the laws in place were for restricting the Govt.
My rights don't come from a law, they are granted by my creator.
macman
Okay, I know the issue here. You believe that there has to a specific law, from the Govt, that states "this is my right/freedom".
My rights don't come from a law, they are granted by my creator.
Darth_Prime
the owner of the business has the right to discriminate correct, but the business does not.
macman
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
My rights don't come from a law, they are granted by my creator.
macman
Darth_Prime
the owner of the business has the right to discriminate correct, but the business does not.
Then there are no private property rights.
The business is basically owned by the Govt/Public.
TheRegal
macman
Darth_Prime
the owner of the business has the right to discriminate correct, but the business does not.
Then there are no private property rights.
The business is basically owned by the Govt/Public.
There are plenty of private property rights.
And the government does not own all businesses, it has simply created laws to stop them from discriminating against minority groups in the general public in ways that have historically been known to create civil unrest or social apartheid.
2 sentences; 2 false statements.
Oh, I almsot forgot to end the post in the juvenile manner which you prefer them to be ended in:
"Oh well, would you like to try again?"edit on 4-1-2014 by TheRegal because: (no reason given)
macman
SO again, there are limited rights in this arena? All to be "fair".