Pope Francis rips capitalism and trickle-down economics to shreds in new policy statement

NavyDoc

MOMof3
"....where did Jesus say to take from one man to give to another", I have heard this before. Jesus would say that was stealing, said that way. If you say you are a christian, should you not follow his lead and forgive the thief, for the punishment of death is everyone's punishment.

He did say concerning taxes, "Give back Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God." Mark 12:17

He said in same chapter that the second greatest commandment is:

"You must love your neighbor as yourself". Perhaps you should read one of Jesus's teachings called the Beatitudes in Matthew 5. God is love.

I don't know why today's christians want to misconstrue His teachings. His heart is not like ours. He did not ignore the sickness and poverty around him and he is not a Liar. He tried to help and give poor people hope at his own risk.

Yeah, I don't know why today's Christians want to misconstrue his teachings from being personally generous and giving and twisting them to support a socialist political agenda. Christ very much encouraged generosity and selflessness for people. However, He did not, in any way shape or form, suggest that taking from one to give to another was the same thing. What grace does one gain if his giving is forced upon him? Zip. Christ talked about the merits of generosity, not wealth redistribution.

I give of myself and what I have because I love my fellow man. I do not take from my fellow man to give to someone else because I also love my fellow man.

GargIndia
reply to post by oxford

 

Issue is not financial equality. Everybody agrees that is not possible.

At issue is a value based and rule based system, which offers adequate opportunity to people to earn honest bread.

The current monetary, and economic system is highly manipulated.

All workers cannot be scientists and engineers. There will be tailors, construction workers, factory workers etc. The broad-base economy which used to be there absorbed people of all skill levels. Now a lot of people work in high-stress service jobs that actually add little real benefit to the economy. A lot of people are simply left out - either in the beginning itself or in the churn.

Lets face it, there is three hopes of that happening, bob hope,no hope and hopeless.

Whatever next, bankers caring about the economy!

Please take a number and take your place in the corporate slavery cubicle, don't forget your own tea and coffee, or use the new Costa Con Cafe we have installed in our corporate buildings, cutbacks because our board of directors need the bonus for their third annual holiday, they have stressful jobs don't you know.

And we all know that priests only work one day a week robbing the poor if the church is going to survive they are going to need some subliminal mind control . . . er . . . I mean powerpoint presentations . . . and good branding . . . 'the christ modern' . . . everyone excited? Go team God Go!

My sarcasm is relative to my coffee intake today

reply to post by tothetenthpower

What do you think ATS? Will the Pope coming down hard on the economy and those who run it, continue to erode the power of the Vatican in the US and abroad

Per predictions... Peter the Roman does not (or would not) become a major factor in world affairs until AFTER the next big event... something like 9.11 or equal that sends us all spiraling.

That said, Pope Francis is hard not to like... he takes on reality without political specs... he stands up for the poor, the downtrodden and the forgotten which is his job by definition. If there has been a pope in recent memory closer to the example left by Christ? I have yet to see him.

So... I dunno. I ain't that smart but I am watching each day.

If there has been a pope in recent memory closer to the example left by Christ? I have yet to see him.

reply to post by redoubt


Only in these days instead of throwing out the money changers, he threw out the drunks.


Yes, The Pope Used To Be a Bouncer

MOMof3
"....where did Jesus say to take from one man to give to another", I have heard this before. Jesus would say that was stealing, said that way. If you say you are a christian, should you not follow his lead and forgive the thief, for the punishment of death is everyone's punishment.

He did say concerning taxes, "Give back Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God." Mark 12:17

He said in same chapter that the second greatest commandment is:

"You must love your neighbor as yourself". Perhaps you should read one of Jesus's teachings called the Beatitudes in Matthew 5. God is love.

I don't know why today's christians want to misconstrue His teachings. His heart is not like ours. He did not ignore the sickness and poverty around him and he is not a Liar. He tried to help and give poor people hope at his own risk.

Taxes: Veda specifies one-sixth part of income as King's part. If King takes more than that, it is stealing.

Is punishment for stealing applicable to Kings? Yes. If man does not, God surely does. The family of the King who engages in sins perishes and the kingdom perishes, and the King goes to hell.

Veda says - "Vasudhev Kutumbkam" - consider all humans as your family. This is very similar to Jesus's "Love thy neighbour".

The corporations and the governments are stealing from ordinary people - for centuries. The wealth of corporations is built on stealing. High taxes and low wages fuel the growth of corporations but steals common man's wealth.

reply to post by GargIndia


I don't know who Veda is but he must have had the same teacher as Jesus. I am not religious but I recognize Jesus really angered the politicians and wealthy of his time because of his teaching of equality. I read his teachings of love and service at a time in my life I really needed to hear it. Churches are modern day moneychangers trying to escape taxes. They have turned Jesus into a modern day version of us. I hope this pope sets christians on the correct course.

reply to post by MOMof3


Veda is a collection of ancient wisdom (book).

High taxation always affects the working classes the most. Rich always find ways to circumvent the system.

It is very important for taxes to be not higher than one sixth of income.

Today there is direct taxation (income tax) and a lot of indirect taxation - like taxes on goods. The total taxes paid by people exceed 60%.

The life will be far more easier with lower taxes.

The best part of trickle down economics is when those at the top pee on your leg and tell you it's raining.

reply to post by GargIndia


Oh. The taxation formula is a good one I think. One sixth from everyone would be fair. But I think we all know that is the problem. I paid a rate of 15% on an income less than 50k but the exceedingly rich like Mitt Romney did not pay taxes for ten years or at a much lower rate than I could ever qualify for. So, out of balance and unequal has the whole system become. Do the ancients teach about harmony and balance in the universe?

That is where the wealthy and pure capitalists fail hiding behind the teachings of ancients and other wisdom givers like Jesus. True, it is their choice to share their blessings, but hearts have gone cold since the Crash of '08. I think this Pope has come at the right time with a different message.

reply to post by MOMof3


You are correct. The system must be fair to everybody.

Vedic kings applied the law to their own family and themselves also.

We are facing a very corrupt system in the modern time.

When you paid 15%, you did not count the taxes you paid on goods you bought. Everything you buy has indirect taxation built into it. You would be lucky if you can get even 50 cents worth on each dollar you earn.

The taxation affects the savings of working classes, and their chances of moving up. High taxation keeps poor that way always, while rich continue to get richer at their expense.

The rich have rigged the system in their favour. The working class does not realize that.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


Love it, It is great to see him kicking ass in the world!

Personally hope he speaks up more, once the darker stuff is highlighted, its hard to hide from it, which we tend to do as a species, so he is providing great opportunities for growth to all of us

Greed is probably the biggest problem in the world.

Definitely warming to him.

The top .5 percent in this country made the majority of their wealth from the stock market with government policies helping it along. The wealth in the stock market is the result of the productivity of everyone in the system. That is the redistribution of wealth taking place in tbis country.

Captialism can exist without Wall Street, but the centrslization of wealth and power in Wall Street has destroyed capitalism with socialism for the rich.

All government policies backed by lobbyists have all been about wall street.

reply to post by GargIndia


I don't mind paying taxes for goods, because everyone pays that. Taxes are unavoidable in a civilization. It just has to be fair. Everything is out of balance now in the US. I am a retiree and remember a more equitable time (as far as taxes).

reply to post by MOMof3


Nobody has a problem with paying taxes. Problem is how much?

Of course the people who are benefiting from the system do not want any change. But everybody must remember that the system works only if it is fair. The unfair system works only temporarily. A ponzi scheme can last a few years, but then the whole thing crashes down to earth.

reply to post by GargIndia


I agree with the unfairness. My maximum wage earnings was 50K per year. Before Reagan and trickle down economics, I could fill out a 1040 form with lots of deductions. After Reagan, then came along the 1040A and I did not have any deductions anymore.

Yeah, I don't know why today's Christians want to misconstrue his teachings from being personally generous and giving and and twisting them to support a socialist political agenda. Christ very much encouraged generosity and selflessness for people. However, He did not, in any way shape or form, suggest that taking from one to give to another was the same thing. What grace does one gain if his giving is forced upon him? Zip. Christ talked about the merits of generosity, not wealth redistribution.


This is very well said and completely and accurately biblical.


I was hopeful that this new Pope would be one who would manage to avoid enmeshing marxism with his social consciousness, but unfortunately it appears that he is another in a long line of South and Central American liberation theologians. The plain witness of history, as even a pop entertainer like "Bono" recently noted, is that:


"....capitalism takes more people out of poverty than aid",


ie, capitalism helps more people obtain more money and more goods, services, food, clothing, and shelter than forcible redistribution of wealth by the government of whatever country or region. Capitalism works precisely because---in diametric opposition to marxism---capitalism is rooted in the plainly obvious reality that people are not, in fact, "equal". Not remotely. They never have been. Neither Jesus Christ nor Thomas Jefferson ever taught or believed in the kind of radical egalitarianism and tacit (or overt) tyranny and totalitarianism advocated by Marx and Lenin and by their tragic cultus today. People are (supposed to be---) equal before the law and in essence are equal before their Creator, that is perfectly so. But that is not remotely the same thing as saying that all people are the same in terms of their talents, abilities, motivations, personalities, etc., nor---worst of all---that it is the proper province and function of government to force "equality", sameness of economic result or outcome, on all people in the name of "fairness" or "compassion".


Jesus himself taught this in the parable of the talents, found in Matthew 25:14-30, in which servants are NOT given the same resources for which they are accountable to the King. One got five, another two, and a third, one. What counted was NOT whether they were "equal", quote-unquote, but rather whether they were faithful to employ all that they had been given in total devotion to their King (ie, to God). Whether what they were given was "much" or "little" was not important; what mattered was whether they were faithful with what they had. Notice that in this parable, the servant who earns the wrath of the King is NOT the servant who was given the most talents at the outset, but rather the one who was given the fewest, because he and not the "rich" servant was unfaithful to the King.


The genius of capitalism, at least as it was practiced during the Colonial years and for the first couple of centuries after the founding of the United States in the New World, was that it released the average person from bondage to the state. People were free to pursue whatever enterprise interested and motivated them, free to accrue whatever rewards came to them from their own risk and work and initiative (and also free to suffer the consequences of failure), and free to then give of their accumulated largesse to others. The unequalled record of American philanthropy is testimony to the power and success of this system.


Unfortunately, as NavyDoc noted, we are now living in an era in which even the people who ought to be best equipped to know better, are inexplicably advocating for ever increasing centralization of government control over economies the world over. This has never worked, does not work, and will never work. Well, except inasmuch as it serves to create political and bureaucratic structures that make people easier to control. Marxism works very well in that regard. But empowering individuals, it most certainly does not. It never has. It never will.

GargIndia
The taxation affects the savings of working classes, and their chances of moving up. High taxation keeps poor that way always, while rich continue to get richer at their expense.

The rich have rigged the system in their favour. The working class does not realize that.

I tend to disagree with these statements.

Several European countries, especially the Nordic ones show the direct opposite. Everything depends on how the taxes are spent. If spent wisely, these can raise the productivity as well as knowledge of the nation significantly. At the end, people living there, are earning significantly more from the high taxes, than they would if these were bought from private companies - the benefits gotten from the taxes outweight the taxes spent on due to benefits they give - universal healthcare is signicantly cheaper than the private one, quality public education system leads to everybody having the opportunity of receiving one, wherever they are born locally into whichevery family. Being from a rich family, does not give benefits of being able to gain better education, the stress and worries about the future are signifcantly lower due to knowledge of the strong unemployment system, the people earning the high minimum wage, set by government or unions, can live well enough to eat well and live without much luxuries. Children are raised up well, so no child should suffer from bad nutrition during childhood, free school lunches, 3-years of paid parent leave etc. All of that leads to higher productivity nationwise and highly lower the social inequality, largely due to the strong education system as well as good opportunities for education (including higher), even the poorest class, and child development.

In Norway, there is a saying it is harder to be poor than become rich. Becoming filthy rich is extreme complicated though. Rich earn high salaries compared to poor, but the difference is significantly less than in US, so poor can leave well and rich can live much better. The very high taxes on rich also enable it. Good entrepreneurs still earn well, 10 of the richest person in Norway pay all the child support of the country via taxes and they still make 10s of millions every year.

reply to post by williamjpellas


Communism has never worked as it ignored excellence.

Capitalism has a fatal flaw too - it concentrates assets into few hands intentionally.

We need neither.

We need a new banking system that is inherently fair to all borrowers and savers.

We need industries that can sustain employment without destroying the environment.

This can happen only if values and morals are part of economic landscape.

reply to post by yamammasamonkey


You should care, his opinion carries a lot of weight with a lot of people. Im not saying you have to believe him, but it is always good to keep up on where the pope is swinging that Catholic power.

GargIndia
reply to post by williamjpellas

 

Communism has never worked as it ignored excellence.

Capitalism has a fatal flaw too - it concentrates assets into few hands intentionally.

We need neither.

We need a new banking system that is inherently fair to all borrowers and savers.

We need industries that can sustain employment without destroying the environment.

This can happen only if values and morals are part of economic landscape.

Well, completely unfettered capitalism "concentrates assets into few hands intentionally", or at least strongly tends to. That has usually been the case historically. In the United States prior to the emergence of American marxism, the "anti-trust" (anti monopoly) laws were enacted to prevent monopolies from forming while preserving the best benefits of free enterprise for all. That was the idea, anyway. I quite agree that values and morals should be part of the economic landscape, though I think that has to come mostly from individuals as they pursue economic stewardship in the sight of God, as opposed to government---the wrong tool for the task---trying to "legislate morality" other than in terms of setting the boundaries of the capitalist system and in policing it.