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One example of a very simple mathematical equation that results in a very unpredictable answer:
1/0
ChaoticOrder
tgidkp
I agree that "sufficiently complex" is not new. however, click a few links and you'll discover that he has defined in what way specifically and mathematically that sufficiency is defined.
That is a fair point, he did add a new layer of mathematics to the subject.
tgidkp
I didn't see any mathematics in the thread you linked.
I didn't need math to explain my logic because it's fairly simple to understand. Deterministic machines never do anything unpredictable and thus have no free will to act against their programming. Thus any deterministic machine can never have true consciousness or free will, regardless of how complex it is.
A deterministic machine will always give a predictable output for every input. You can test it as many times as you like but it will never produce an unexpected output unless the computer experiences a glitch. It doesn't matter how complex your network is, if it's deterministic it will never be conscious.
EDIT: Now how do we overcome this obstacle you ask... the answer is simple: quantum random number generators. The machine needs access to some sort of true quantum entropy so that it can express completely unpredictable outputs. Exactly how that results in consciousness, I don't know.edit on 25/11/2013 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)
Given your name, I assume you know about nonlinear dynamics? How theoretically deterministic systems can result in effectively unpredictable and 'random' behavior?
ChaoticOrder
reply to post by mbkennel
Given your name, I assume you know about nonlinear dynamics? How theoretically deterministic systems can result in effectively unpredictable and 'random' behavior?
Chaos theory does not say that truly random data can arise from a complex deterministic system. It implies that random looking data can arise from a deterministic systems. It's not unpredictable at all, the same equation will ALWAYS result in the same output for any given input, even if it looks to be quite random. There is no magical deterministic equation which produces unpredictable output. Show me just one example of a "theoretically" deterministic equation which produces unpredictable output every time and then you will have a valid argument. But you wont, because such an equation does not exist.
The thermodynamical fluctuations of real physical systems (not even requiring quantum mechanics) which support consciousness mean that there will always be sufficient "apparent" randomness that it's indistinguishable from "real" randomness (I personally don't think there's any difference between "truly" random and untruly random---one's the limiting case).
ChaoticOrder
reply to post by mbkennel
The thermodynamical fluctuations of real physical systems (not even requiring quantum mechanics) which support consciousness mean that there will always be sufficient "apparent" randomness that it's indistinguishable from "real" randomness (I personally don't think there's any difference between "truly" random and untruly random---one's the limiting case).
Of course there is a difference between pseudo-random and truly random... it's like the difference between a classical RNG and a quantum RNG. Classical RNG's may seem random but they aren't "truly" random, because if you know the seed used to generate the seemingly random data you can regenerate the exact same "random" numbers.
Without quantum mechanics there is no randomness in our universe, thermodynamic fluctuations are a result of quantum mechanics at the most fundamental level.
a) chaotic randomness in large ensembles is as good as any other randomness.
When do you get "randomness"?
This website offers true random numbers to anyone on the internet. The random numbers are generated in real-time in our lab by measuring the quantum fluctuations of the vacuum. The vacuum is described very differently in the quantum mechanical context than in the classical context. Traditionally, a vacuum is considered as a space that is empty of matter or photons. Quantum mechanically, however, that same space resembles a sea of virtual particles appearing and disappearing all the time. This result is due to the fact that the vacuum still possesses a zero-point energy. Consequently, the electromagnetic field of the vacuum exhibits random fluctuations in phase and amplitude at all frequencies. By carefully measuring these fluctuations, we are able to generate ultra-high bandwidth random numbers.
qrng.anu.edu.au...
Because the outcome of quantum-mechanical events cannot in principle be predicted, they are the ‘gold standard’ for random number generation. Some quantum phenomena used for random number generation include:
* Shot noise, a quantum mechanical noise source in electronic circuits. The term is a clipping of the term "Schottky noise," referring to the scientist who first published regarding this phenomenon. A simple example is a lamp shining on a photodiode. Due to the uncertainty principle, arriving photons create noise in the circuit. Collecting the noise for use poses some problems, but this is an especially simple random noise source. However, shot noise energy is not always well distributed throughout the bandwidth of interest. Gas diode and thyratron electron tubes in a crosswise magnetic field can generate substantial noise energy (10 volts or more into high impedance loads) but have a very peaked energy distribution and require careful filtering to achieve flatness across a broad spectrum[6]
* A nuclear decay radiation source (as, for instance, from some kinds of commercial smoke detectors), detected by a Geiger counter attached to a PC.
* Photons travelling through a semi-transparent mirror. The mutually exclusive events (reflection — transmission) are detected and associated to ‘0’ or ‘1’ bit values respectively.
* Amplification of the signal produced on the base of a reverse-biased transistor. The emitter is saturated with electrons and occasionally they will tunnel through the band gap and exit via the base. This signal is then amplified through a few more transistors and the result fed into a Schmitt trigger.
* Spontaneous parametric down-conversion leading to binary phase state selection in a degenerate optical parametric oscillator.[7]
Physical phenomena with quantum-random properties
God does play dice with the universe---real physical dice controlled by deterministic equations of motion with a very high KS entropy rate. Like real casino dice.
How is that unpredictable... there are only two possible answers: infinity or undefined.
ChaoticOrder
reply to post by mbkennel
God does play dice with the universe---real physical dice controlled by deterministic equations of motion with a very high KS entropy rate. Like real casino dice.
Lol... well I can now see that I'm clearly wasting my time trying to argue this with you because you apparently refuse to accept the implications of QM and would rather believe everything is deterministic in some sense.
It's not. End of story.
ChaoticOrder
reply to post by mbkennel
a) chaotic randomness in large ensembles is as good as any other randomness.
You clearly aren't grasping the fundamental problem here... pseudo-random numbers are not good enough for applications such as secure cryptographic algorithms. The reason for that is because it's not truly random data and it's entirely possible to reverse engineer the so called "randomness".
The randomness and collapse procedures are indeed useful shortcuts for practical experimental situations, like Fermi's golden rule, but I believe they are approximations to the more complex and true manybody problem.
It's a giant leap to go from saying randomness in nature is intrinsic to randomness is a prerequisite for consciousness.
The universe is a combination of determinism AND randomness. This leads to a situation where both our past and future are probabilities, not certainties or rendered unknowable. If the universe were randomness there'd be absolutely no predictability and if it were deterministic everything would be certain.
ChaoticOrder
reply to post by jonnywhite
It's a giant leap to go from saying randomness in nature is intrinsic to randomness is a prerequisite for consciousness.
No it's not, explain to me how can you have a completely deterministic consciousness when everything that consciousness "thinks" is completely predictable and can be calculated if you know the deterministic equation being used to create the consciousness.