Zuckerberg: Immigration 'one of biggest civil rights' issues of our time

reply to post by jacygirl


You are a very sweet, thoughtful and compassionate young lady, but...with open borders, you have people coming across without health or background checks. We have had murderers, gang members, pedophiles thieves etc. just walts on over illegally. We have had thousands of citizens who have lost their lives due to an illegal, many who have had previous arrests and deportations.

Also...I have seen with my own eyes, illegals hired over qualified citizens for jobs. These citizens desperately needed a job to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads.

reply to post by tadaman

I have to wait almost a year for my wife and child to join me here in the US because there are MILLIONS of illegal. aliens applying for citizenship. If they would have all done things through the proper chanels I would not have a broken family traumatizing my kid while she waits for almost a year in another country for our situation to be considered and our application to be processed. Apparently a citizen is second class to others who are not part of our national family. My family and I have to wait because others couldn't ....

Excellent point! We have people coming here through the proper channels and with great respect for our country and laws, while illegals pick and choose which ones to follow. It is a slap in the face! Illegals should never be rewarded with amnesty.

tadaman
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

illegal immigration is as wrong and detrimental to the very nation illegal immigrants wish to be a part of.


do things the right way or be the object of social stress.

I have to wait almost a year for my wife and child to join me here in the US because there are MILLIONS of illegal. aliens applying for citizenship. If they would have all done things through the proper chanels I would not have a broken family traumatizing my kid while she waits for almost a year in another country for our situation to be considered and our application to be processed. Apparently a citizen is second class to others who are not part of our national family. My family and I have to wait because others couldn't ....


Respect the law so as to be respected by the citizenry it represents...

I have a similar case. My wife if of foreign citizenry and our children are dual undr her country but American under mine. Now I lost my job and we were extending her stay at $300 every 6 months. Now we are thinking about Changing her status but that is a large amount of money we just don't have and if I don't get work soon we will be in trouble.

Night Star
reply to post by tadaman

 

I have to wait almost a year for my wife and child to join me here in the US because there are MILLIONS of illegal. aliens applying for citizenship. If they would have all done things through the proper chanels I would not have a broken family traumatizing my kid while she waits for almost a year in another country for our situation to be considered and our application to be processed. Apparently a citizen is second class to others who are not part of our national family. My family and I have to wait because others couldn't ....

Excellent point! We have people coming here through the proper channels and with great respect for our country and laws, while illegals pick and choose which ones to follow. It is a slap in the face! Illegals should never be rewarded with amnesty.

Exactly! I agree wholeheartedly.

Night Star
reply to post by jacygirl

 

You are a very sweet, thoughtful and compassionate young lady, but...with open borders, you have people coming across without health or background checks. We have had murderers, gang members, pedophiles thieves etc. just walts on over illegally. We have had thousands of citizens who have lost their lives due to an illegal, many who have had previous arrests and deportations.

Thank you Night Star...but I'm actually not young (and idealistic) lol...I'm older, and truly believe that we need a shift in consciousness.
It is my opinion that poverty breeds murderers, gang members, thieves, etc....and that many problems would be eradicated if there was less inequality between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. I don't believe that some deserve to have more than they require while others are left to starve.
Anything that is 'man-made', such as borders, laws, rules, mentality...can be changed. They can be changed for the better. But that won't happen while everyone is worrying about their own selves. We need to start think globally...caring about every human being.
I have gone from having it all, to having nothing. I know that what truly matters is people, not stuff.
Everyone can laugh at me, call me a dreamer...it's okay. I'm quite comfortable caring about the human race as a whole.
jacygirl

beezzer
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Borders haven't worked because there is always someone or some group of someone's who wants what is across the border.

Let's micro-size it.

Your border is your home.

Can I walk in across your border, eat your food, watch your tv, sleep in your bed, use your soap and shampoo as I use your shower?

Exactly. I said we need a better idea than borders. Having your home as a border would make petty ego games like nationalism relegated to a family/community level where it already exists.

jacygirl

Cuervo

beezzer
A broader question to those who are proponents of illegal immigration;

Should any country have borders?

Borders haven't worked in the thousands of years we've had them. Why not come up with a better idea?

Wow...thank you for saying that.
I agree that we need a better idea. Something different. But people don't like change so it's not well received. I get that, even with my head 'in the clouds'.
Change might mean that our standard of living would lower. To many of this world's poorest people, we poor people in North America are rich beyond belief. The inequity is too unjust.
What is wrong with me saying that everyone deserves to have an equal share...or that I understand why illegal immigrants risk death to get to a place that offers hope?
I'm not sure that Zuckerberg is concerned with much beyond his own expansion...but it would be nice.
jacygirl

A border is simply a way of artificially separating humanity. When you do that, you will always have people who are born into either over privileged households or irrevocably horrid conditions which will unfairly determine that person's place in life. Neither the rich brat nor the homeless street urchin "deserve" what they were born into.

People make the argument of not taking from one to give to another but that argument is only just if the game was fair in the first place.

I do alright. I get stuff paid, seriously have no complaints, and usually have enough left over to make somebody's day brighter. I'm not rich and detached nor am I poor and bitter. I'm far happier than either of those types of people when I meet them. I think "getting by comfortably" is far underrated and most people don't understand what it's like to risk their lives to cross into a land of silicone and strip malls just to gather enough money to feed their family.

And, again, it all comes back to why they need to do it in the first place. When a person researches and understand why it is this way, it becomes an irony to complain about immigration. When you strong arm your neighbor into poverty, you should at least turn a blind eye when he tries to take your empty cans and food in the garbage.

The younger generation and college generation(pre and post) thinks Zukr is such a genious and SO COOL and is concerned with the environment and on and on...

This Dude has used every one of you and sold you down the river and is on his way to take everything you own, money, privacy, jobs, health and your religion, go ahead and add your soul to the list.

Cheap labor to take our jobs, cheap labor to vote for the corrupt criminals in government that will continue to provide them free handouts at the expense the almost 100 million left that still have jobs that pay taxes.

Yeah, lets bring in the illegals now. That would be cool also.

reply to post by Night Star

I have to get out of this thread because of some of the intellectual geniuses beliefs and ideas with no attachment to anything close to resembling REALITY.
You are right.
We are now becoming the third world country we feared and the proof is here by reading just a couple comments in this thread.

Bring in your 3rd world diseases, 3rd world hygiene, criminals,3rd world education and on and on.

Isn't the US now ranked 16th or much lower(the higher the number the worse off we are).


I am willing and do help the helpless, I am not willing to help the clueless!

There is a difference many of you aren't aware.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


Zucker boy is a NSA groomed plant for facebook. I suggest every one cancel there facebook accounts.

Here's the problem as I see it. Because we haven't secured our border we have far too many illegals in the country. There's enough at this point, and there's political/financial interests at work that basically mean we're NEVER going to be able to deport them. At the same time however, because they're illegal employers can get away with working them for less money creating an underclass of workers. This impacts everyone. It means people are consuming government benefits (public roads and such, to say nothing of those that get welfare or social security benefits) without contributing taxes. It also means that citizens see their wages lowered as they have to compete with illegals.

In my opinion the only way to prevent this is to give them all amnesty. I don't want to reward the illegals but to do otherwise punishes all the legal citizens. I do however think that Republicans are right when they say the border needs to be secured. To use an analogy, there's no point in bailing out a sinking boat without first plugging the leak.

We need to secure the border and then we need to legalize everyone that's already here.

reply to post by f4rwest


Isn't natural? Has the same needs?

Ok so a world having no imaginary boarders isn't natural?... Isn't that what the world was like before we gave it boarders?

Also, every human being on this planet has the same needs buddy, water, food and air.

Also in the world today everyone is dependent on the government for food and shelter, whether you work or not, you can bang on about us paying taxes for "immigrants" as you call them but I'd just like to point out that you would still be paying taxes if they weren't there.
Jacy is bang on when she says about one world, one race, the human race.

Go back say... 3,000 years if a guy happened to turn up on the shore of a different land to his original place of being and he seen another human what do you think that human would make of him? would he see an "immigrant" or would he see a fellow human. You guys saying that we should have boarders honestly need to think outside the box...

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Damn you Mr Corruption .... Oh wait!

LocalGenius
reply to post by f4rwest

 

Isn't natural? Has the same needs?

Ok so a world having no imaginary boarders isn't natural?... Isn't that what the world was like before we gave it boarders?

Also, every human being on this planet has the same needs buddy, water, food and air.

Also in the world today everyone is dependent on the government for food and shelter, whether you work or not, you can bang on about us paying taxes for "immigrants" as you call them but I'd just like to point out that you would still be paying taxes if they weren't there.
Jacy is bang on when she says about one world, one race, the human race.

Go back say... 3,000 years if a guy happened to turn up on the shore of a different land to his original place of being and he seen another human what do you think that human would make of him? would he see an "immigrant" or would he see a fellow human. You guys saying that we should have boarders honestly need to think outside the box...

Borders are a very natural thing, not just humans but many animals mark an area as their territory. Humans having opposable thumbs and a more complex language are simply able to make better borders.

When groups come together as a community they create a bigger area with a larger border to encompass the group.

I have nothing against immigrants, regardless of how they get here (and if you read above you would see I'm in favor of making them all citizens) but borders are a very natural concept.

The world has always had borders and short of world domination will always have borders. The concepts of freedom and sovereignty require borders to exist.

reply to post by Aazadan


I wouldn't really want to compare a dog marking a territory to a human creating a border, but yeah I can see what you're saying buddy

I just think every human should have just as much right as any other human to call anywhere on this planet home... We were all born on this planet so why can't we decide where we want to live/work, just because we was born on a rock that's across some water shouldn't mean we can't go and live/work on a different rock, these rocks are under the same sky, we have blood running through our veins just as you do, 10 fingers 10 toes, just as you.

It will never happen because MONEY, you know that thing that enslaves us, that we spend most of our life "earning" just to live... Not to be happy, but just to get by for most of us, if we wasn't too busy "earning" it then maybe we would have time to be happy.

Also please explain "The concepts of freedom and sovereignty require borders to exist" how you figure that out... Freedom and borders do not mix my friend, here a little example.

Me: Excuse me Mr border patrol man I'm just going to pass...
Mr Border man: Nope
wheres the freedom in that mate?

jacygirl
Get rid of all the borders...they are imaginary lines used to keep people separated.


If we are here, we DESERVE the necessities of life. All of us.
Just my opinion.
jacygirl

That's a beautiful idea. One that has been proposed by a billion innocent and naive minds before. The problem is inventing a system that can actually sustain a society and had a place for everyone chosen by God to be alive. Our current reality is that nations need laws and money to survive. Non civilians do not contribute to said nation, they only take away from it
Surely you must be aware of this. Nothing I've said here is groundbreaking.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


The problem lies in there not being enough talent in US for certain tech fields. In order for an international tech company to be competitive, they need the best around the world, not the best from their country.

Of course, there are many certified people in US, who do not have a job. The fact that they are certified does not mean they are able to compete with the absolute best from around the world.

US has 300 million people, while the rest of the world has 6.7 billion. It is very likely the top from the other 6.7 billion are more talented than the top from the 300 million. You can compare it to sports, where large countries, like US, usually gain lots of medals in olympics. This happens simply because of larger talent pool. It is very likely though that in coming decades asian/african/southern american countries will become the major players. In Sports the amount of talent is also largely dependent of the life quality of the nation, currently in 3rd world nations, the children can not maximise their potential largely due to childhood nutrition, but with the increase in life quality, things are going to change a lot.

In the future, things are very likely to get even worse for US when it comes to jobs requiring skills. US education system is weakening, while the systems are getting stronger in many other countries. Even currently, the international companies are largely dependent on the work of engineers/programmers from other nations, not because they ask less, but because they have better skills than the local best. You can not stay competitive internationally, if you do not have the best talent.

Due to expensive universities the talent pool is made even smaller than it could actually be, as there are many very talented youth who are simply not able to afford going to university and their interests simply stay as hobby rather than career, as they have the need to work on some other field (as most tech fields require a degree). While some other nations create opportunities for every kid (whatever their financial opportunities are), in US the poorest people have significantly less opportunities compared to other advanced nations and due to them being significantly larger group than the rest, it creates an even smaller pool to pick from.

PS. Facebook pays very high salary to majority of its designers/programmers, who do the creative and analytical work. It is not dependent on their nationality, but their skillset.

Cabin
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

The problem lies in there not being enough talent in US for certain tech fields. In order for an international tech company to be competitive, they need the best around the world, not the best from their country.

US has 300 million people, while the rest of the world has 6.7 billion. It is very likely the top from the other 6.7 billion are more talented than the top from the 300 million.

I don't know, 300 million people should comprise somebody who has the skills needed, unless we are talking about incredibly highly specialised skills, like designing a nuclear reactor.

And it's a balance of procurement, not just skills but the cost of labour makes a difference. Furthermore, you could argue that too many candidates results with retarded recruitment practices.

For example, a tech company will advertise a job spec like "Software Developer with Java, Databases and JavaScript"

They receive thousands of CVs from all over the world, so they make the job spec more complex like "Software Developer with Java 7, Oracle and Angular.js"

Now they receive 50 CVs which the recruiters will filter based on salary expectations, and hire somebody who has the specific skills advertised, but who also requires a VISA.

They now believe they have hired the perfect candidate, some international genius, however an American with the essential skills, listed in the first job spec, could have easily transitioned from Java 6 to Java 7, and easily picked up Oracle and Angular.js with a good knowledge of SQL and JavaScript.

So long as borders remain so permeable, and employers have a gigantic pool of candidates, they will continually raise their expectations of candidates, and continually lower the wages they pay to employees.

Maybe we should open the borders, and abolish countries, and therefore abolish the state, and have total anarchism.

Then, because there's no state to enforce copyright laws, I could setup a website called Bookface that looks exactly like Facebook, and change my name to Mark Zuckerberg.

I could choose a patch of land and just build a house there, with no state to enforce land rights, and pay no rent or taxes to anyone.

I could hire the cheapest labour in the world, with no state to enforce borders, and pay them in potatoes for developing my Bookface website.

It seems like the rich want anarchism when it comes to job security, but don't want anarchism when it comes to land and property rights.

They can't have it both ways. The state should either protect everybody's economic interests, or nobody's economic interests.

That's my two potatoes' worth anyway..

LocalGenius
reply to post by Aazadan

 

Also please explain "The concepts of freedom and sovereignty require borders to exist" how you figure that out... Freedom and borders do not mix my friend, here a little example.

Me: Excuse me Mr border patrol man I'm just going to pass...
Mr Border man: Nope
wheres the freedom in that mate?

edit on 23-11-2013 by LocalGenius because: forgot something

Not to get too far off topic with this but sure. Different people have different ideas, for example the Christians would like a country where everyone recognizes God, goes to church, and lives their life by whatever interpretation of the bible their denomination uses. The Aethists however don't believe and see it as a huge offense to be forced to pay tribute to what's in their view an imaginary entity. The Muslims see both as wrong and want a society that lives according to the Quran. This idea largely mirrors for example the original American colonies which were largely divided along religious lines.

No singular set of rules is going to make these three groups happy. You can create a compromise which allows everyone the freedom of their own beliefs, and that works great for the Aethist while allowing the Christian and the Muslim to worship how they want however those two groups still see their country as an affront to their Gods because the country doesn't legislate according to religious tradition. This is what we have in the US and in most developed nations now.

At some point however, everyone would simply be happier if they had their own portion of land where they're free to believe what they want, and live around other believers of that same thing. In order to define an area by it's beliefs you need a system of borders, both so that people of like mind know where to go and also so that those who disagree can avoid it.

Organize several small groups and now you have a national government which is the same thing on a larger scale. In this nation the leaders want to be free to govern as they see fit. Sometimes this is to the benefit of ordinary citizens and sometimes it's not. Either way, the concept of your nation not being beholden to the laws of another nation, means you can't make them adhere to your laws either. All nations are equal in concept and each is free to do what it wants within it's own borders. At the same time it can't force another nation to go against it's own wishes. The result is that you have a lot of independent cells that answer to no one... the definition of freedom.

What you're getting confused with is the idea of anarchy as being freedom which it isn't. Anarchy and borders do not mix.