IF you DO believe in the bible doesn't it proves Satan is stronger?

reply to post by The Vagabond

1. There's the whole man could become "like us" if he ate of both the tree of knowledge and the tree of life thing in Genesis,

"Like" does not mean "equal". It mean's knowing the difference between good and evil, yet we are without the wisdom required to use that knowledge for good as defined by God.

2. God seems unable to undo things, such as the creation of Satan or the prospective eating from the tree of life by humans.

You're assuming that all of this wasn't in his plan to begin with, which repeatedly in the Torah it states that he has declared all of it from the beginning.

3. Angels are not among the list of things that god creates along with heaven and earth,

He didn't create them with heaven and earth, he created them before he made the physical universe. Angels are ministering spirits.

Job 38:4-7 Explains the angels were before the creation of the earth.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God = Angels. The word angel translates as "messenger"

4. There's the very fact that an angel would try to fight god- how/why do you fight an invincible omnipotent being who knows what you're thinking and can blink you out of existence at will?

Pride, arrogance, vanity. He was the guardian of the white throne. Isaiah gives some idea as to what went on, and why the name of the angel "Heilel" was erased from history.

Isaiah 14:12-21. The word "Lucifer" is a misnomer taken from the latin words Lux (Light) and Ferre (bearer). He tried to play God and claimed his titles and got smacked down into a cursed body, which is how he showed up in Eden looking like a serpent/dragon. This misnomer has caused quite a lot of confusion and is the culprit of gnostic teaching that Christ is Lucifer and is a case of mistaken identity.

Isaiah 14:12 "Oh Lucifer, son of the morning" translates as Heilel ben shachar or "Howl you! son of dawn" in Hebrew.

Satan was not only stripped of his name, he was stripped of his titles.

Hebrew days begin at dusk around 6 pm with the rising of the moon, so the hebrew morning would be the evening. The "son of the dawn" would be the moon. The moon tries to act like the light, but it is not the light, it can only pretend to be the light by reflecting the light of the sun. This allegory points at who satan really is. He is Hu'bal the god of pre-Islamic arabs whose temple is the Kaaba in Mecca, the one they worship now as "Allah" of the Kaa'ba, also known as "Al'Makka" the bullgod of the Arab Sabeans whose symbol is the crescent moon and star. In a round about way Isaiah was pointing at the god of the midianites.

In the Hebrew translation of Judges 8:21 Gideon takes the crescent ornaments (ath-eshernim) of the midianite priest kings Zebah and Zalmunnah, from their camels. Midia is modern day Saudi Arabia.

Satan has had many names given him by humans. One of his other names is Ba'alzebuwb "The Lord of flies", whose was the god of ancient Ekron, a.k.a. as the "angel of death". We learn that satan is this angel of death from Yeshua ("Jesus Christ") here:

John 8:42-44

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

This is beside the point though. Christianity celebrates a man's death, that's called death worship. Jesus' message was about life not death, so it's weird that Christianity focuses on the opposite of his teachings, which is his death.

Only life brings life, you've never seen a dead woman give birth to a baby have you? So how can you believe that a man's death brought life? It makes no sense.

It's not besides the point. We don't worship death. Jesus' message was that his death would being us life, and that life in his spirit is what we cling to, and we are celebrating that new life in his spirit. How can I believe his death brought life? Because he said his death would bring us life, and it was also prophecied in the OT several times.

You think of "life" 2 dimensionally, but Jesus didn't preach that life was in this physical body, but rather in the spirit. This corruption we are living in is death and if you want to be resurrected into life there's only one person you can go through and that is Christ. Without that resurrection, you're nothing more than a walking tomb.

According to the bible, satan wins. Or else god and satan are in cahoots. Either way, satan ends up with all the souls while maybe 12 people get to go to heaven.

arpgme
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

The bible says Jesus is the begotten son of God.

He was created by an ETERNAL being at some POINT IN TIME ,which would mean only God truly always existed - not Jesus.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 1:2
He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:28
So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothin

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Philippians 2:5-7
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

1 Corinthians 15:28
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

Acts 3:22
Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Psalm 45:6
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

Psalm 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light do we see light.

Revelation 22:12-16
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Hebrews 1:2-3
But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hebrews 1:1-3
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

2 Timothy
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

1 Timothy 6:14-16
To keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Philippians 2:10
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1 Corinthians 8:5
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—

Romans 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Acts 3:15
And you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

John 20:31
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 17:20-22
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have.

edit on 47pm47qupm302013-11-16T18:37:47-06:000606 by SasquatchHunter because: (no reason given)

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Where does he say that his death would bring us life? From my understanding he said to keep his commandments in order to enter life.

Matthew 19
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

Jesus is pretty clear here, in order to enter life you need to keep his commandments. He says nothing about believing in any kind of sacrifice at all.

Matthew 9
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Matthew 12
7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Mark 12
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Love and have mercy on one another to enter life, that was Jesus' message, not to believe in a sacrificial blood offering that Jesus said he had no desire for.

He even agrees that loving one another is more important than ANY sacrifice or offering. Where are you getting your doctrine from? Obviously not from Jesus or the Gospels.

Satan stronger than man, tell me something I don't know.

reply to post by arpgme

God says Satan is evil for going against Love, meanwhile the Love god tells people to live by is actually Fear of going to hell .

People have serious psychological problems living in this world because of all the difficulties involved.
On top of all of that, we don't need worries about what happens after this life to be added to the amount of stress that we have already.
The Bible says that Jesus came to take that power of the devil away, to drag us down mentally through manipulations based on our dread of death.
We have a hope through the resurrection of Jesus that we will be resurrected too.
Our "redemption" is a psychological freedom, and not a physical trade between God and Satan.

thewholetruth
Satan stronger than man, tell me something I don't know.

Man? what? The Shill vagrant bystander to its own existance?
Alright; Lucifer is far stronger than Satan and is really pissed off; in (IT Satans) usership/manipulation of the human being (going into Lucifers realm causal/of/application of and EATING the humans freewill card). Satan has over stepped itself and in danger of being in the middle of a major smackdown MMA scenario and IT WILL LOOSE). Just waiting for the ticket prices to come up for this show.

Let's say you take your argument further (not sure if you would or not normally). What does Satan represent to you? Helping others and loving one another and helping the poor and working together towards a better tomorrow?

That's normally what God and Jesus represent - so thinking that Satan represents that already shows some kind of mind games being played.

Or does Satan represent something else? Are you thinking that he represents individualism and power and destroying the weak? I dunno, it happens sometimes, then those same people don't realize they were converted to eveil insteada good.

Anyway the whole question is kinda relevant O.P. I guess we will see in 10-20 years what happens.

arpgme
Think about it:

(Exhibit A) God had to offer his son Jesus Christ as a human sacrifice for a RANSOM of sin. Isn't human sacrifice evik? Yet God had to commit an act of evil to make this DEATH in exchange for killing us and taking us to hell.

(Exhibit B) If Jesus is God and Judas was possessed by Satan, then Satan killed God.

Not true for two reasons, number one, Jesus is not God by your own confession that he is the son of God in exhibit A (I know, there is the Holy Trinity, but the honest truth is, Jesus has a whole different attitude and everything than God), number two, source on Judas being possessed by Satan...

He is infamously known for his kiss and betrayal of Jesus to the hands of the chief Sanhedrin priests in exchange for a payment of thirty silver coins.[1] Though there are varied accounts of his death, the traditional version sees him as having hanged himself out of remorse following his betrayal. His place among the Twelve Apostles was later filled by Matthias.

The Wikipedia entry here shows that Judas was, in fact, weak, and that he liked Jesus a lot but was too afraid to risk his life for him. And he felt bad about it, after.

About Jesus being killed by Satan (not God being killed btw) Jesus was attempted to be killed by Satan, actually went to hell, and made it out of there and resurrected and went back to heaven.

To me, that shows that it doesn't matter how strong God is, what matters is how strong Jesus is. And Jesus was not only strong enough to survive hell and resurrect, he was apparently smart enough to outsmart the demon Satan in order to be let out without any contest, or if there was a contest, he won.

Now only that, Jesus did the whole thing with humility, unlike his dad in the past.

I'm sure that as a demon, whatever Satan heard Jesus say, convinced him that he should let Jesus go.

How many people do you know who have been able to outsmart a demon contract or explain a better perspective to them successfully, much less a contract with Satan himself?

I don't want to say Satan is weak here, but he must have thought there was some sense in what Jesus was saying, whatever it was, or else Jesus would either still be trapped in Hell, or dead, not resurrected and sitting in Heaven.

The two possibilities are that Satan was frustrated that he lost but had no other choice, or that Satan was convinced of Jesus' plan and decided to go along with it.

The third possibility is that he went along with the plan, with his own idea of outsmarting it sometime in the future.

-----

If we are looking at certain time periods, it seems as if Satan is enjoying himself in this particular time period, right on schedule, and that his power comes from deception - that means that once people find out they are being lied to, he will lose his power, although he might try a final power grab of some kind that will solidify everyone's opinion of him as a dick.

I think even now, people are thinking they are being lied to somehow, but aren't quite sure how - that's because there is a lot of wordplay and twisting of ideas going on here.

We are at the point where someone who believes in science has to be an individualist and not believe in a soul or free will - we are also at the point where someone involved in the church is spending most of their time judging and hating people - see, Satan is involved in both, in charge of both.

There is fear in religious society right now, a dark force. That same dark force is present everywhere right now. The fact that it is present in religious society means that religions were infiltrated.

I'm not sure how much stronger the dark force is going to get - but it is pretty strong right now.

-----

ItCameFromOuterSpace
According to the bible, satan wins. Or else god and satan are in cahoots. Either way, satan ends up with all the souls while maybe 12 people get to go to heaven.

I don't know what version of the bible you're reading but that is not what it says. Satan goes down into "sheol" which means the grave and in Isaiah 14:18-20 we see:

18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

Satan is cast out of even his grave. His name forgotten, his titles stripped and ultimately he will be destroyed and cease existence. He doesn't "get" anyone. He and his gift to the world, which is the grave, cease to exist.

lonewolf19792000

ItCameFromOuterSpace
According to the bible, satan wins. Or else god and satan are in cahoots. Either way, satan ends up with all the souls while maybe 12 people get to go to heaven.

I don't know what version of the bible you're reading but that is not what it says.

I think Satan's army is dropping their psychological warfare pamphlets on the internet again.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Context is your friend.

Jesus is pretty clear here, in order to enter life you need to keep his commandments. He says nothing about believing in any kind of sacrifice at all.

He was talking to jews before his crucifixion. Up until that point the scriptures plainly state that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, from Genesis all the way to his crucifixion. No one could keep those commandments, they were created so that Israel should come to know that all of mankind was cursed, that they being the priests of the nations could not even keep the law of flesh. Even King David could not keep the commandments, and Moses also broke the first commandment when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it and was punished by not being allowed to cross over into his inheritance.

The "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" from those passages in Matthew 9:13 and 12:7 is not talking about him not sacrificing himself. He is talking about the Pharisees putting ceremonial law above moral law, and Matthew 12:1-8 establishes that.

The scriptures also declare that he would die for others, and not for anything he had done.

Daniel 9:26

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Isaiah 53:5

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:12

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

His crucifixion at the Passover was a fulfillment of the first Passover in Egypt when the blood of the lamb was painted on the post and lintels of Hebrew homes so that death would pass over them. Blood of the innocent for the blood of the guilty. The feast days are prophecies. In those times the jews believed that the soul was in the blood, so not only was he shedding his blood for our sins, but making his soul an offering which is where this comes from:

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

He even agrees that loving one another is more important than ANY sacrifice or offering. Where are you getting your doctrine from? Obviously not from Jesus or the Gospels.

Obviously whatever you're using for a bible, is sadly lacking. That or you have no discernment and little knowledge of the scriptures in it's entirety. When Jesus preached about "love" he was speaking about giving people the Gospel which is that he would die for our sins and be raised up on the 3rd day and ascend to the right hand of the Father, and about "treat others the way you want them to treat you" which is called the Royal Law.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

This is beside the point though. Christianity celebrates a man's death, that's called death worship.

Really? In my land we celebrate in memory of a fallen soldier. Is that death worship ? No, it´s not. We celebrate in memory for a soldier who gave his life so we can have freedom.

Peace

teenage rebellous phase anyone??? ha ha

Why don't you just go get a job and a girlfriend and learn a sport or 2, and stop obsessing how evil you can try and be.

Luke I am you're father, now come to the dark side of the force!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Satan is cast out of even his grave. His name forgotten, his titles stripped and ultimately he will be destroyed and cease existence. He doesn't "get" anyone. He and his gift to the world, which is the grave, cease to exist.

Darn! And here I thought I'd eventually be able to die...existence just gets so tiring. Pretty sure I'd run out of things to live for.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


The passage clearly states that loving one another is more important than ANY sacrifice or offering, that "ANY" includes any and all sacrifices past or future.

Jesus could have easily rebuked the man and said "Not ANY sacrifice, just most, the sacrifice I will make will be the most important", but he doesn't, he believed the man answered wisely. Nowhere in the passage does Jesus say anything about his upcoming sacrifice that he "knew" would happen, he agrees with his answer.

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice" is supposed to be god himself speaking correct? So why would Jesus refer to god's word about not desiring sacrifice then go on to sacrifice himself for us? Obviously if god desires us all to be saved and the only way to save us was through sacrifice then he desired sacrifice, yet Jesus implies that he didn't desire it.

It's a clear contradiction and one that completely undermines Christian doctrine. Jesus says he (god) didn't desire sacrifice yet he desires us to be saved which Christian doctrine says is through Jesus' sacrifice. You can't have an effect (salvation) without a cause (sacrifice).

reply to post by Seed76


The difference is a soldier is celebrated for what he did while alive, his death is not celebrated, his service is. Christianity teaches that Jesus' death was his service, meaning they put more emphasis on his act of dying than his work while alive.

Does a soldier ever go to war for the purpose of dying? Of course not, they go to fight for their country while alive, their death is only a consequence of their service. Christianity says that Jesus' death was his service, meaning they celebrate his death and worship it.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

God loves all his children equally.
But if you stick your dick in another guys butt youre going to burn for an eternity.
Have a nice day

reply to post by arpgme

No. He isn't. Good will always triumph over evil. Evil is there always to temp us, but good and God will always prevail in the end over Satan and evil.

Its what keeps me goin'. To know that if we didn't have evil and bad things...we wouldn't know how to appreciate all the good things we have. There would be no point with a life perfect with everything we need, nothing changing, nothing to learn because there is no need because it is all perfect and great.

Free will is the catalyst.