I no longer believe in Evolution as currently being used

Cogito, Ergo SumI doubt you want that re evolution as it coincides with mainstream science, it also excludes ridiculous Canaanite war gods, the notion people can walk on water or that magic beings *poof* things into existence. As to the papers, I'll try.

God has always existed, peoples understanding of god has changed over time... this jewish guy named Abraham helped the world out with providing a definition of god which was more up to date and to their current level of understanding, it has endured for many years now... think of it as evolution.

They offer a cross national study of the worlds richest (1st world) democracies against 25 key indicators of a healthy society and their correlation to religion/secularism. A "Successful Societies Scale" is drawn from this clearly showing secular nations being far better off. This direct correlation (that secular societies are healthier in general proportion to their lack of religion and vice versa is already well known, although not well understood). The stats in the paper are cited with sources.

On available statistics (which are explained) the US is way out on it's own re levels of religiosity (absolute belief in a deity, rejection of evolution/belief in creationism, frequency of prayer etc) to an extent that simply isn't seen in any comparable nation in the modern, developed, educated world (it is well known that over 40% of US adults reject science out of hand in favor of creationism) which reduces your original specific objections to nonsense. Were they even genuine?

the United States is that too... we are a little bit of a bunch of everything here. A unique place where this many combinations of people have come together under a secular banner, but having the freedom to practice and believe whatever their religion entails... I grew up in Arlington Va, we have a church for everything there... very unlike alot of places on the globe.

I have this strange feeling that you do not understand what America is about? you're either not from the United States, or you do not understand it's founding principals.

The level of societal dysfunction in the US, commensurately, is also way out on it's own. Being so out of kilter with the rest of the modern world, the US offers a great comparative study. The second paper looks more at whether poor socioeconomic conditions contribute to religious belief rather than the opposite (that religion is causal). This basic study has implications for religion.

Religion seems to follow consistent trends (apart from belief in gods).....higher levels of poverty, higher abortion and teen/unwanted pregnancy, higher divorce rates, populations that work longer hours, STD infection is higher, incarceration levels are very high (with Christians having a highly disproportionate share), exploitation is higher, the gap between workers and executives is higher (shared wealth), welfare is poor-it can't or won't look after less fortunate citizens etc. etc. etc.

Though you might have no interest in it overall, it does put paid to your original objections, in the correct context.

So the claim in the video is obviously true among the modern "educated" world. If you are claiming beliefs in 2nd-3rd world countries discredit this, apart from being laughable in what it implies and the fact it doesn't matter, it will need to be backed up with reliable statistics.....got any? If you could do this, it would seem to reinforce the actual point he is trying to make. It is a shame there is no reliable statistics for other seemingly fundamentalist countries (such as in the middle east). On the surface there seems an obvious similarity.....

uhum, uhum, yes, uhuh... I see... very interesting indeed.


personally being that your PDF's we not official documents and you did not post a link to the source... I could rather just dismiss it, so a source would be appreciated.

although I am unphased by the naysayers, the United States is a nation which has given so much more than any shortcomings anyone can point out... it is a nation which took mankind to the moon

SisyphusRide

God has always existed, peoples understanding of god has changed over time... this jewish guy named Abraham helped the world out with providing a definition of god which was more up to date and to their current level of understanding, it has endured for many years now... think of it as evolution.

The rainbow serpent (and many other indigenous myths) have been around longer and while far more colourful and imaginative than the primitive war god that certain ignorant middle eastern goat herders were given to, I don't believe those either.

the United States is that too... we are a little bit of a bunch of everything here. A unique place where this many combinations of people have come together under a secular banner, but having the freedom to practice and believe whatever their religion entails... I grew up in Arlington Va, we have a church for everything there... very unlike alot of places on the globe.

I have this strange feeling that you do not understand what America is about? you're either not from the United States, or you do not understand it's founding principals.

This is discussed in the relevant study.

If you think I'm being anti US, that isn't really so. Religious fundamentalism exists across the board. Though far more prevalent in the US where a significant portion of the population seem intent on bringing in another dark age. It seems also a shame that this is turning people to a more militant form of atheism in droves, a shame because we simply don't know exactly how or why we exist, in the original sense.

personally being that your PDF's we not official documents and you did not post a link to the source... I could rather just dismiss it, so a source would be appreciated.

Home page..... www.epjournal.net...

Editorial staff..... www.epjournal.net...

From wikipedia.....

Evolutionary Psychology is an open access, peer-reviewed, academic journal published online since 2003.[1] It covers empirical, philosophical, historical, and socio-political aspects of evolutionary psychology.

If you request "The Chronic Dependence of Popular Religiosity upon Dysfunctional
Psychosociological Conditions" by Gregory S Paul in hard copy, they might be able to help you.

Some articles discussing the study, to get a general idea.

www.theguardian.com...

epiphenom.fieldofscience.com...

although I am unphased by the naysayers, the United States is a nation which has given so much more than any shortcomings anyone can point out... it is a nation which took mankind to the moon

True, it has many great accomplishments. Yet religious fundamentalism isn't one of them (IMO) and while I understand your view.....as pertaining to the particular point under discussion, it is an irrelevant argument.

Religion and particularly fundamentalism/literalism/creationism seems synonymous with negative societal conditions and is at odds with known facts of our universe. For many religious people, there is no real conflict between god and science.

It would be fascinating to hear an explanation of exactly how god achieved his work?

reply to post by SisyphusRide

PS; over 85% of Americans do not feel the way you do, majority rules!

I've never indicated how I feel on the subject, you're the one who made the claim that "we don't like Brits here, they are pompous and rude and exhibit a "holier than thou" attitude". I'll ask again: who is we? Where is here? Are you suggesting that you have some evidence that 85% of Americans "don't like Brits"? And your cry of "majority rules!" is overly simplistic nonsense. Or did you not notice the checks and balances against the "tyranny of the majority" that the framers of the Constitution put into place?

iterationzero
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

PS; over 85% of Americans do not feel the way you do, majority rules!

I've never indicated how I feel on the subject, you're the one who made the claim that "we don't like Brits here, they are pompous and rude and exhibit a "holier than thou" attitude". I'll ask again: who is we? Where is here? Are you suggesting that you have some evidence that 85% of Americans "don't like Brits"? And your cry of "majority rules!" is overly simplistic nonsense. Or did you not notice the checks and balances against the "tyranny of the majority" that the framers of the Constitution put into place?

It seems that every time our OP is pressed with facts or material that shows that he is wrong, telling lies, he starts to shout and show attitude I don't expect from middle school student.

As for picture calling 'lunatic atheists' - I think its hilarious. I would never call theist people lunatics - they are more delusional in believes that are not too far from believing in Santa Claus or Tooth-fairy.

I believe this discussion, moved once more by OP with different objective serves no purpose. There is no real facts or numbers behind anything OP stated, even that 85% that he got from... let's not go there...

To sum it up - OP never understood evolution, nor he cares to understand it as he has made his mind that instead of believing in science and all facts that science is based on - he rather believes in book that is well known that advocates prejudice, cruelty, superstition, and murder.

Good for him

reply to post by SisyphusRide


You seem very nationalistic. I wonder how many Americans would agree with your sentiments, or feel proud to be the compatriot someone who has chosen someone who has deliberately made himself into an aggressive ingnoramus.

I really cannot see why intelligent people are wasting time on the likes of you in this thread.

reply to post by SuperFrog


Im not sure if OP understands Evolution, do most people understand the THEORY of evolution? I dont believe so, I think OP is simply inquiring into the subject which is healthy and what any good scientist would do. Honestly it is a theory, any good scientist who understands the theory can argue the theory either way using facts, but that is merely philosophical speculation on the data we as a people have compiled.

At the end of the day a Theory is merely built upon our best understanding of what has been studied scientifically. It can change, shift, and will as new data is presented that is how all theories work, and everyday we make new discoveries hoping to eventually upturn theories and turn them from a question to an answer.

(Notice earlier I said "good" scientists, that is because sadly most suck, hey like anything there is always a bell curve... If some scientist is running around telling people evolution is a fact, id watch his career cause at that point its game over man!!!!)

Cogito, Ergo Sum
snjip;

actually this discussion is about how evolution is being used, and why I am losing faith in it because of that use.

evolution used to be just this thing to me... I guess I took it for fact, never really thought about it, it never got in the way of my spirituality.

remember this is not a discussion about my spirituality or my God, it is a discussion about "evolution"

my God and my country are closely related, therefore you are treading on my spirituality, and going way off topic.

thanks

iterationzero
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

PS; over 85% of Americans do not feel the way you do, majority rules!

I've never indicated how I feel on the subject, you're the one who made the claim that "we don't like Brits here,

maybe you just haven't met any... or enough of them yet?

Dawkins is a shining example of how most Brits will treat you because you are an American... fat, god loving, redneck, ect ect.

you see Britain has been ruled for centuries by the Church establishment.. it may be something the teacher in your school didn't mention? you know all thru the dark ages... it is only natural that they blame the church and christian but not their people, not their men, not their civilization of overly arrogant individual aristocrats who abuse power and never adhered to the word of God during the dark ages.

want to play the blame game...?

so in short... it's not the churches fault, nor Christianity's fault, nor is it God's fault... it is man's freewill which is as fault.

British can not understand this, they have never been a secular society such as the united states... during history under the British and the Catholic church you had one choice... their version of truth, in which you could pay a fee to commit sin.

so it is totally natural and understandable that they, as a society and a culture are wholly unaware of this... how are they supposed to know any better?

we separated from the Brits for more reason than just taxes my man... and Martin Luther started that snowball a rollin'

I have one British friend who is local and we see eachother on a regular basis... he has been in United States 4 years now... and I have watched his transformation... it's a beautiful thing.

--

and guess what friend... they still have this today, once you understand this you will be like a child psychologist and begin to understand their simplistic train of thought.

www.secularism.org.uk...

we got rid of kings and queens for a reason... we are a much further advanced society in 200 years than Britain has picked up with centuries of rule.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

so in short... it's not the churches fault, nor Christianity's fault, nor is it God's fault... it is man's freewill which is as fault.

So let me get this straight. The almighty all-powerful all-knowing and all-present god is not responsible for the creation he planned out from first second to last in less time than it takes to blink and can change just as quickly. You're just going to blame it on his pets.

Wow, your god is a freakin' yeller-bellied coward! I can't even think of an adequate label for you, seeing as how you've sold your soul for an eternity in his service. Just because you're afraid of the void. But you know what's great about death? You can die and still keep your honor. But I suppose honor's no good if you're not alive to flaunt it, right?

You're just unreal.

reply to post by AfterInfinity



thank you... your reaction to truth is unsurprising.

see in America we have separation of church and State/Federal government...

England should try it sometime

UK should practice what their people preach to others... We are doing just that in the United States, my nation is founded on it.

tigpoppa
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Im not sure if OP understands Evolution, do most people understand the THEORY of evolution? I dont believe so, I think OP is simply inquiring into the subject which is healthy and what any good scientist would do. Honestly it is a theory, any good scientist who understands the theory can argue the theory either way using facts, but that is merely philosophical speculation on the data we as a people have compiled.

At the end of the day a Theory is merely built upon our best understanding of what has been studied scientifically. It can change, shift, and will as new data is presented that is how all theories work, and everyday we make new discoveries hoping to eventually upturn theories and turn them from a question to an answer.

(Notice earlier I said "good" scientists, that is because sadly most suck, hey like anything there is always a bell curve... If some scientist is running around telling people evolution is a fact, id watch his career cause at that point its game over man!!!!)

And yet, after many pages here where we posted definition of theory in scientific world, you think that there are doubts about evolution, thus it is a 'theory', like something that require belief to work.

Question that puzzles me with ending of your post - how many scientist do you know? Why would Dawkins for example telling what he is master of ( evolutionary biologist) mean end of his carrier?! Are you serious?

This topic just leads to nowhere, because just as pointed here, you still trying to wiggle word evolution, where even Pope John Paul II said that evolution is there to stay and there is no doubt in evolution.

SuperFrog
This topic just leads to nowhere, because just as pointed here, you still trying to wiggle word evolution, where even Pope John Paul II said that evolution is there to stay and there is no doubt in evolution.

I think the problem lies in the actual close proximity and vicinity to the Holy Roman Catholic Church... all of Europe suffers this.

they shouldn't need the Popes approval and blessing btw... but nonetheless

reply to post by SisyphusRide


If the question is about how Evolution mixes with spirituality, it shouldnt be affecting your spirituality at all. One thing is science the other religion, and religion is not science. Religion relies on faith while science relies on facts. Both are important in different ways, where faith is personal to each of us, something special and often something different.

Its good to question Evolution, more people should be questioning science, finding out how things work, hey see that microwave I use everyday, how does that thing work? Who made it? This is what people should be doing, just dont waste all your time doing that stuff or youll never get out of the house to share all taht awesome knowledge your storing over some cocktails or coffee with friends.

*Speaking as a Catholic and a scientist, no science needs the popes approval, haha. One thing has nothing to do with the other, and the pope provides guidance he is a man, flesh and blood like you and me, its not like every Catholic has to listen to him or should, think of him like the CEO of a pizza company, if you like eating pizza who cares what the CEO says about sandwiches, since your still going to like sandwiches too. That would be a discussion for a different thread though.... just gonna derail your whole introspection into evolution thing you got goin on here.

tigpoppa
If the question is about how Evolution mixes with spirituality, it shouldnt be affecting your spirituality at all.

it shouldn't be you are correct... but there are those who are making it.

the problem lies in the origins of communism, and how taking god/independence away from the people under communism, the State becomes your god (Orwell 1984)

this communism spread to Europe like a viral infection... and a people who are under rule of an oppressive and abusive Catholic institution were very receptive of it. Communism represents to them freedom from the abusive and overpowering false institution known as the Catholic Church.

this virus took root here in the United States, years ago... even though the nation is still in its infancy. After the virus took root, there were those here who were receptive to it because this atheistic communistic virus represents to them freedom from rules and the boundaries of society.

American atheism has taken a small rooting in the United States by a minority group of individuals who do not understand the principals the the nation of the United States is founded on...

the United States said "screw you" to all of them and "it" and said no oppressive false religious institution is going to run this nation, nor is any flawed State government, no matter what that government may be, if it communism or socialism or marxism.

the founders of the United States were wise, and ahead of their time, people who has a sense of history and what they and the protestants have been thru... and they said

Let the people Rule! all of the people... every ideal and belief!

but no majority or minority will become oppressive to the other, there will be constant compromise, no one will have a foot hold upon freedoms inherited by their Creator (who ever they may believe it to be)


--unfortunately we have a small group of atheists attacking the Christians in America becuase they seen the British attacking the Catholic church, which in my opinion they may or may not have every right to do... its not for me to decide.

reply to post by SisyphusRide


So....Europe embraced communism as an escape from the oppressive catholic church?

Atheists can be described as a virus which has spread across Europe, particularly in Britain where the lack of a secular society at the time resulted in atheistic communism becoming deeply engrained?

The US is free from this virus as its people have no monarchy and live in a secular society where Christianity is free to flourish?

Is this what you are saying?

reply to post by SisyphusRide


Its not a bad thing to question the theory of Evolution or any other principal, if other groups are causing you to reflect on these ideas then its a good thing to explore them further and find out more about something it sounds like you are interested in. Or maybe its just the history of why organizations parrot certain beliefs of faith as fact.

(England ditched Catholicism when I think the pope told King Henry he couldnt have a divorce, so he was like, yo pope, im a king, get out of here with that cray, ill make my own church, nuts to you! hahaha, well thats the short version the long version is well, real loooOOOooooong.)

SisyphusRide

tigpoppa
If the question is about how Evolution mixes with spirituality, it shouldnt be affecting your spirituality at all.

it shouldn't be you are correct... but there are those who are making it.

the problem lies in the origins of communism, and how taking god/independence away from the people under communism, the State becomes your god (Orwell 1984)

this communism spread to Europe like a viral infection... and a people who are under rule of an oppressive and abusive Catholic institution were very receptive of it. Communism represents to them freedom from the abusive and overpowering false institution known as the Catholic Church.

this virus took root here in the United States, years ago... even though the nation is still in its infancy. After the virus took root, there were those here who were receptive to it because this atheistic communistic virus represents to them freedom from rules and the boundaries of society.

American atheism has taken a small rooting in the United States by a minority group of individuals who do not understand the principals the the nation of the United States is founded on...

the United States said "screw you" to all of them and "it" and said no oppressive false religious institution is going to run this nation, nor is any flawed State government, no matter what that government may be, if it communism or socialism or marxism.

the founders of the United States were wise, and ahead of their time, people who has a sense of history and what they and the protestants have been thru... and they said

Let the people Rule! all of the people... every ideal and belief!

but no majority or minority will become oppressive to the other, there will be constant compromise, no one will have a foot hold upon freedoms inherited by their Creator (who ever they may believe it to be)


--unfortunately we have a small group of atheists attacking the Christians in America becuase they seen the British attacking the Catholic church, which in my opinion they may or may not have every right to do... its not for me to decide.

Can I ask where on earth you assembled this extraordinary collection of, um. facts? Let's start off with the fact that Communism rolled over Eastern and Central Europe at the point of a Soviet gun. Then there're the little fact that Communism does not predate the Reformation. Far from it. I suggest that you add some history books to the collection of books written by Richard Dawkins. You'll be better educated at the end of it.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

actually this discussion is about how evolution is being used, and why I am losing faith in it because of that use.

You've made many claims but have yet to show any evidence of how evolution is being used in a sociopolitical sense. A member by the name of Cosmic.Artifact made a much better showing of it than you have in terms of presenting the evidence for his case. Granted, he was still wrong, but he put better effort into it than you have thus far.

Evolution doesn't require your faith. Whether you like or dislike what you perceive as the outcome of acceptance of evolution is irrelevant to its usefulness as a scientific theory and its existence as an observable phenomenon.

evolution used to be just this thing to me... I guess I took it for fact, never really thought about it, it never got in the way of my spirituality.

When an observable scientific phenomenon i.e. a fact gets in the way of your spirituality, maybe it's time to reevaluate your spiritual direction. As has been pointed out to you many times, there's an abundance of theists who accept evolution. Or, as the Dalai Lama would put it:

“If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

AngryCymraeg

SisyphusRide

tigpoppa
If the question is about how Evolution mixes with spirituality, it shouldnt be affecting your spirituality at all.

it shouldn't be you are correct... but there are those who are making it.

the problem lies in the origins of communism, and how taking god/independence away from the people under communism, the State becomes your god (Orwell 1984)

this communism spread to Europe like a viral infection... and a people who are under rule of an oppressive and abusive Catholic institution were very receptive of it. Communism represents to them freedom from the abusive and overpowering false institution known as the Catholic Church.

this virus took root here in the United States, years ago... even though the nation is still in its infancy. After the virus took root, there were those here who were receptive to it because this atheistic communistic virus represents to them freedom from rules and the boundaries of society.

American atheism has taken a small rooting in the United States by a minority group of individuals who do not understand the principals the the nation of the United States is founded on...

the United States said "screw you" to all of them and "it" and said no oppressive false religious institution is going to run this nation, nor is any flawed State government, no matter what that government may be, if it communism or socialism or marxism.

the founders of the United States were wise, and ahead of their time, people who has a sense of history and what they and the protestants have been thru... and they said

Let the people Rule! all of the people... every ideal and belief!

but no majority or minority will become oppressive to the other, there will be constant compromise, no one will have a foot hold upon freedoms inherited by their Creator (who ever they may believe it to be)


--unfortunately we have a small group of atheists attacking the Christians in America becuase they seen the British attacking the Catholic church, which in my opinion they may or may not have every right to do... its not for me to decide.

Can I ask where on earth you assembled this extraordinary collection of, um. facts? Let's start off with the fact that Communism rolled over Eastern and Central Europe at the point of a Soviet gun. Then there're the little fact that Communism does not predate the Reformation. Far from it. I suggest that you add some history books to the collection of books written by Richard Dawkins. You'll be better educated at the end of it.

I didn't get that at all from his post.

I am not at all Christian, but the morals that guided our country at its founding were most definitely Christian in nature.
The Common law is criminal law involving a victim, usually accusing someone violating one of the ten commandments.
This was at the heart of the judge's case in Alabama where he called for the ten commandments to be placed outside the courthouse.
When our courts were created, they did not have diversity jurisdiction as we see today.
99% of the time we are in an administrative court and not a criminal court, but because the rules of procedure are the same, we can't tell the difference and we just agree to whatever the state says.
The courts are now mechanisms of state power.
The courts were the means in which any victim found resolution, and the state was never a victim.
This hoo-ha that we have today in our courts is a farce.
The courts have become revenue streams for the state.
They are no longer solely the means by which a victim seeks resolution.
The state should never be able to charge anyone with anything where they are a victim of the Common Law, because the state is the law. The judge is bound by law that was created by the very state that it might have to render judgment against.

The state knows this and it hedges its bets.
By calling upon the judges and attorneys to meet state BAR codes, or become dis-barred everyone works to the favor of the state or they cannot work in the courts.
It's all ingenious really. I gotta give them props.
The BAR codes are all written to favor wins by the state.
The courts themselves are simply the means by which someone seeks resolution, but they are NOW ruled by statutory code that favors the state and makes them lots of money.
The state did this by combining equity and common law into diversity jurisdiction.
When we go into court we are so overwhelmed that we just agree to whatever fine they levy.

This issue could be discussed at length, but I bring it up because the state and religion were purposely kept separate by the founding father's, because religion established the moral code and the state regulated this moral code by force through enforcement of the common law.
Equity has always been to the benefit of the aristocrats. Read more here for a better understanding.
Combining the two is a sure way to tyranny and that is what I got out of what his reply stated.

And he is right.

Communism is most definitely in play with this issue because when no god exists then the moral code must come from somewhere, and it is the state.
Look no further than this great thread by moderator skyfloating that I have been participating in discussing the repressive nature of politically correct speech.
Any mainstream belief that is supported by the establishment is done so in order maintain the power of the wealthy.
The establishment was bought and paid for long ago.
This can best be seen in Executive order 12803 of April 30, 1992.
This executive order signed by His Royal Heinous King Bush the 1st made available for privatized contract ALL of the public infrastructure.

ALL OF IT.
It can all be privately owned and operated.
Our government's infrastructure can be privately owned and operated.
That is not too far removed from our government can be privately owned and operated.

And one of the many reasons that we let this slide is because idiots believe that we are ascending from apes.
We believe survival of the fittest and the fittest won control of our government-owned-tax-payed-for-infrastructure through their man.
The ex head of the CIA.
The ex vice president of the US.
The man that introduced the world to the new world order, because when they are successful...
and they will be. -quote from the bushman himself.

We will live in a world ruled by the laws of man, not the law of the jungle.
Or the laws of God, as Christians would say.
These people promote this belief of ascension from a single cell to multi-cellular predator top of the food chain.

The only 'conspiracy' that has ever existed is the means by which the uber wealthy accrue and pass on their wealth and power to continuing generations.
And having a survival of the fittest mentality as the foundation for your moral code makes the means in which these truly psychotic predators maintain power and control acceptable.

I can't believe intelligent people can not see this.

Guys give it up...honestly.
You can bombard them with peer reviewed evidence and they still do not accept evolution.
Why can not God and evolution exist hand in hand, maybe God made the rules (evolution)and we are trying to figure them out.
Tell me Christians many other religions accept evolution, even the Catholic church but you guys think evolution will destroy your faith....guess If that all it takes to destroy it you lot don't believe in it as much you all say you do.