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Can I Disprove Mormonism Using Their Own Scriptures?

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posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 02:30 AM
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Mormonism has canonized a few scriptures, including the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham is interesting, Joseph Smith claims he translated some Egyptian texts: en.wikipedia.org...

Now these writings are in fact the writings of Abraham's own hand: so says the Mormon church. www.lds.org...

If you go through these writings they parallel in part the travels of Abraham through Egypt as told in Genesis, but with one notable difference. Abraham, author of his own tale in Genesis (certainly as much as he is the author of this book of Abraham) refers to himself as Abraham only after God reveals to him that he shall be the father of Israel. Before this event he and his wife's name were Abram and Sarai. After this event he and his wife's name were Abraham and Sarah.

Whenever God calls someone to Him, their name changes, it is true with all the Apostles, it is true with Isaac who became Israel, it is true with Abram who became Abraham...and so on. It is the mark of being born again.

Well here we have a major problem!

www.lds.org...

Through out the Book of Abraham he only refers to himself as Abraham, even before his conversion experience with God. But he refers to his wife as Sarai.

The problem doesn't end there, one might say "well Abraham wrote the Book after he became Abraham and just didn't use his old name".

The problem is that the Book of Abraham ends before Abram is given his NEW NAME by GOD.

The Book of Abram covers the time from Genesis 12 through Genesis 14.

Abram's name is not changed until after his second trip into Egypt, after Ishmael is born. God says:

Gen 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."

So the Book of Abraham must therefore be a poorly thought out fraud. It not only uses Sarai's original name (not Sarah after Gen 17), but it clearly takes place several chapters before Genesis 17.

Abram at the time of writing the "Book of Abraham" could not have known his name would be Abraham.

If one canonical book is a fraud, the whole damn Church is a fraud.




posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 03:06 AM
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reply to post by FreeMason
 


Or... He wrote the story after God changed his name but he just never finished it (or the rest of it was lost, or whatever). I have no answer re: the Sarai thing. Maybe he started getting all Alzheimer-y. Maybe he liked calling her Sarai cuz it turned that old man on. Who knows.?

My question to you, however, is why do you seem to care so much about whatever someone chooses to take on faith? I think the whole Mormon story is made up by some guy with some weird ideas. But, if Mormons aren't throwing rocks at you or declaring Jihad against the non-believers, who cares?



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 03:17 AM
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35Foxtrot
reply to post by FreeMason
 


Or... He wrote the story after God changed his name but he just never finished it (or the rest of it was lost, or whatever). I have no answer re: the Sarai thing. Maybe he started getting all Alzheimer-y. Maybe he liked calling her Sarai cuz it turned that old man on. Who knows.?

My question to you, however, is why do you seem to care so much about whatever someone chooses to take on faith? I think the whole Mormon story is made up by some guy with some weird ideas. But, if Mormons aren't throwing rocks at you or declaring Jihad against the non-believers, who cares?


The Great Commission says that we would care, I don't have a much better reason than that, than a yearning to let the truth be known. We are a lamp unto the world, it does not get placed under a bowl.

When in the Poseidon Adventure with Gene Hackman many of the passengers were led by a false prophet to the bow, he passionately yelled out to come to the stern, that the bow was under water. He cared, even tho he had no reason to save their lives.



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 03:43 AM
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reply to post by FreeMason
 


OK, Mr. Hackman. See, I'd go with someone like Steve McQueen if I had to draw movie star equivalencies to my existence. But, this ain't the movies.
Look, I'm Catholic. However, I feel no need to disprove others' honestly held beliefs - despite the history of Catholicism (or maybe because of it). If they ask me, I will explain what I believe and why. It's up to them to accept what I was taught is the "true religion." I can't make them come to God. I can't make them believe their god isn't the "right" one. I can only share what I believe and why, and hope they make the right choice.
If your goal is to "disprove" Mormonism and save all those Mormons from their Poseidon-like religion, all you're gonna accomplish is, for the most part, to bring about reactionary defense of Mormonism by those who do believe in it. Sure, I see your point. Mormonism is silly. They're not going to Heaven like you are. I agree to a point. But pointing out this silliness or wrong-headedness or contradictory story is just going to reinforce those opinions already held by non-Mormons. It's not going to change the minds of any real Mormons and, as such, works against your stated goal of showing them the way out of the capsized, sinking vessel.



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 03:51 AM
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35Foxtrot
reply to post by FreeMason
 


OK, Mr. Hackman. See, I'd go with someone like Steve McQueen if I had to draw movie star equivalencies to my existence. But, this ain't the movies.
Look, I'm Catholic. However, I feel no need to disprove others' honestly held beliefs - despite the history of Catholicism (or maybe because of it). If they ask me, I will explain what I believe and why. It's up to them to accept what I was taught is the "true religion." I can't make them come to God. I can't make them believe their god isn't the "right" one. I can only share what I believe and why, and hope they make the right choice.
If your goal is to "disprove" Mormonism and save all those Mormons from their Poseidon-like religion, all you're gonna accomplish is, for the most part, to bring about reactionary defense of Mormonism by those who do believe in it. Sure, I see your point. Mormonism is silly. They're not going to Heaven like you are. I agree to a point. But pointing out this silliness or wrong-headedness or contradictory story is just going to reinforce those opinions already held by non-Mormons. It's not going to change the minds of any real Mormons and, as such, works against your stated goal of showing them the way out of the capsized, sinking vessel.


It's hard to be reactionary against fool-proof refutation of their own scripture. And God didn't say "Go sit in a closet until someone opens the door and asks you what your opinion of Me is."



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 04:13 AM
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reply to post by FreeMason
 


No but I'm pretty sure that Jesus (as God) would not be cool with your refuting based on your personal beliefs. As I pointed out in my first reply here, there are a few fairly reasonable explanations to your irrefutable proof that Mormonism is kooky - and a butt-load of barely reasonable ones that believers will be happy to provide. You wanna believe Mormonism is for dum-dums, cool. As I said, I think it's a silly story put together by a weird guy. But, I'm not gonna denigrate another's faith based on my theories. Especially when my theories have some sizeable holes in them as yours do.
Besides, if you want to point out inconsistencies in writings, the Bible is probably a good place to start.
Look, if I offended you, sorry. It just seemed weird to me that you'd concentrate on this semi-fringe cult when you've got the 800 lb gorilla of the Bible of the major guys to look at. My question was more out of curiosity as to why YOU felt the need to go after Mormons (thought maybe there'd be an interesting story there and I'm bored) specifically; not so much why we as humans should strive for truth wherever possible.
By the way, who was the big lady actress in Poseidon Adventure? I think her death scene was in the elevator? It's been a while since I've seen it.

S McQ



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 05:27 AM
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reply to post by FreeMason
 


Can I ask, what is peaceful about the action of trying to disprove someone's beliefs? Live and let live



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 05:48 AM
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Southpark did it best - Here's the full episode
30 minutes. It's educational and gets right to the heart of the problem with it.
edit on 10/13/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Doesn't work outside US on the Internet. LOL even though I am an American living in the UK I am still barred from this.... I have heard about this clip and really wanted to see it.

When I was young man I was called on many times by missionary's from LDS..... I resisted at all costs.... but was told by my parent to be nice and not to be rude so for them it was a better than average call. Several years passed as I lived away in private boarding school they quit calling. When I returned to the area I was now interested in girls as for three years I was in a all boy school. My new girlfriend seemed to go to church a lot which was near us but she (like all my next GF lived on the other side of town) so it was easy to attend church to see her.

It became clear I was expected to go through the lessons. I did so and to this day I am glad I did cause I have opinions based on experiences than other people stories or emotions. At the end of the lessons I asked too many unanswerable questions and the only reply that was repeated was to bow in prayer and ask the Lord for faith.... This did not work. Imagine my surprise when my further calling on the home and request to see her was refused. I managed to talk to Roxanne by phone who said that I wasted 18 months of her time that she loved me and was broken hearted. Now IMHO I was too young for that kind of love... but she spelled it out.... My conversion would have been a family affair from being Baptised to confirmation! Since I rejected the church I had therefore rejected her. Long story shorten 4 years later she ran away from her family and lived with an older man...... That was the last I heard of her since I later joined the service and never came home again.

I found the church rather self serving and self interest. If you are not part of the church then you are outcast, not as I understood the teachings of Christ! IMHO.

Just used our friend Google LOL here is a clip for those like me outside the link viewing area....


vimeo.com...



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 10:02 AM
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The Book of Abraham, as translated by Joseph Smith, has been proven to be an Egyptian "Book of Breathings" funerary text after the translation of the Rosetta Stone allowed scholars to understand Egyptian text.

Of course you could disprove it with scripture, but seriously why bother?

I was an LDS member for years because my mother was a member and in my early years in the church I believed their stories. After reading up on the church's history and it's off shoots, I came to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a con-man that P. T. Barnum would have had a lot in common with.

It is basically a good church from the perspective of their emphasis on family values, genealogy, and disaster prepping, but they are organized on the Masonic model and Joseph Smith was trying to become a theocratic king of his own country - a god on earth more or less.

I finally got out a number of years ago and have not looked back since.

My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 02:16 PM
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35Foxtrot
reply to post by FreeMason
 


No but I'm pretty sure that Jesus (as God) would not be cool with your refuting based on your personal beliefs. As I pointed out in my first reply here, there are a few fairly reasonable explanations to your irrefutable proof that Mormonism is kooky - and a butt-load of barely reasonable ones that believers will be happy to provide. You wanna believe Mormonism is for dum-dums, cool. As I said, I think it's a silly story put together by a weird guy. But, I'm not gonna denigrate another's faith based on my theories. Especially when my theories have some sizeable holes in them as yours do.
Besides, if you want to point out inconsistencies in writings, the Bible is probably a good place to start.
Look, if I offended you, sorry. It just seemed weird to me that you'd concentrate on this semi-fringe cult when you've got the 800 lb gorilla of the Bible of the major guys to look at. My question was more out of curiosity as to why YOU felt the need to go after Mormons (thought maybe there'd be an interesting story there and I'm bored) specifically; not so much why we as humans should strive for truth wherever possible.
By the way, who was the big lady actress in Poseidon Adventure? I think her death scene was in the elevator? It's been a while since I've seen it.

S McQ

Actually Jesus is completely cool with it. You haven't offended me, I'm just restraining as hard as I can not to insult you by pointing out that you're probably not Christian, have a milktoast belief and would give up Catholicism if someone said convert to X or die. It's a lot of assumptions of your person, but your whole position just cries out weaksauce. Who knows....

The Bible doesn't have "Sizeable" holes in them, so I go around with confidence.



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 02:17 PM
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MichiganSwampBuck
The Book of Abraham, as translated by Joseph Smith, has been proven to be an Egyptian "Book of Breathings" funerary text after the translation of the Rosetta Stone allowed scholars to understand Egyptian text.

Of course you could disprove it with scripture, but seriously why bother?

I was an LDS member for years because my mother was a member and in my early years in the church I believed their stories. After reading up on the church's history and it's off shoots, I came to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a con-man that P. T. Barnum would have had a lot in common with.

It is basically a good church from the perspective of their emphasis on family values, genealogy, and disaster prepping, but they are organized on the Masonic model and Joseph Smith was trying to become a theocratic king of his own country - a god on earth more or less.

I finally got out a number of years ago and have not looked back since.

My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.


I think it's more important to disprove the scripture within itself than it is to try and disprove the scripture's sources and etc. Most mormons explain that other translations of the Papyri are "wrong" so they just write it off.

But is Abraham himself wrong within the supposed correct translation? The fact that yes, he is, is very crucial.

The Mormon church is not a good church either, they are nice to your face, but if you sin, if you are seen as sinful they talk behind your back. I find more and more refugees from that church who were cast out like garbage every day.

I was in the Sauna and one day I talked about God quoting the Bible from memory with a friend in there, and like 2 or 3 weeks later a guy who happened to be there came up to me again and started asking questions telling me how because the Mormons threw him out of the church for remarrying.

I told him Paul says to rebuke and admonish 7 times at least lol.

But the point is the Mormons treat their sinful members like ###. And since everyone is a sinner, that makes Mormonism full of hypocrites.
edit on 13-10-2013 by FreeMason because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 02:25 PM
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MichiganSwampBuck
My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

That's great advice. Peel away all the other stuff. It's unimportant and not necessary to Christianity. To be a Christian means to believe in Christ and try to follow what He said ... and what He said is 'love God and love your neighbor'. It was short and to the point ....



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 02:28 PM
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FlyersFan

MichiganSwampBuck
My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

That's great advice. Peel away all the other stuff. It's unimportant and not necessary to Christianity. To be a Christian means to believe in Christ and try to follow what He said ... and what He said is 'love God and love your neighbor'. It was short and to the point ....


Bad advice
If you want to start with NT Jesus sayings go ahead, but a lot of what Jesus says quotes the Old Testament.

But loving God and loving your Neighbor means spreading the Word of God to your neighbor, not very loving of you if all you do is build a fence together.



posted on Oct, 13 2013 @ 07:05 PM
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FreeMason

FlyersFan

MichiganSwampBuck
My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

That's great advice. Peel away all the other stuff. It's unimportant and not necessary to Christianity. To be a Christian means to believe in Christ and try to follow what He said ... and what He said is 'love God and love your neighbor'. It was short and to the point ....


Bad advice
If you want to start with NT Jesus sayings go ahead, but a lot of what Jesus says quotes the Old Testament.

But loving God and loving your Neighbor means spreading the Word of God to your neighbor, not very loving of you if all you do is build a fence together.


When I said read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there, I didn't mean to ignore his references to the O.T. Also I never suggested to "build fences". I think that FlyersFan got my message better than you did FreeMason.

As for the those snide and gossipy Mormons that you feel infest the LDS church, they hardly sound like any kind of sincere Christians to me, regardless of their flavor of Christianity.

It really seems that you have a chip on your shoulder FreeMason, you should get over it already.





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