Can I Disprove Mormonism Using Their Own Scriptures?

Mormonism has canonized a few scriptures, including the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham is interesting, Joseph Smith claims he translated some Egyptian texts: en.wikipedia.org...

Now these writings are in fact the writings of Abraham's own hand: so says the Mormon church. www.lds.org...

If you go through these writings they parallel in part the travels of Abraham through Egypt as told in Genesis, but with one notable difference. Abraham, author of his own tale in Genesis (certainly as much as he is the author of this book of Abraham) refers to himself as Abraham only after God reveals to him that he shall be the father of Israel. Before this event he and his wife's name were Abram and Sarai. After this event he and his wife's name were Abraham and Sarah.

Whenever God calls someone to Him, their name changes, it is true with all the Apostles, it is true with Isaac who became Israel, it is true with Abram who became Abraham...and so on. It is the mark of being born again.

Well here we have a major problem!

www.lds.org...

Through out the Book of Abraham he only refers to himself as Abraham, even before his conversion experience with God. But he refers to his wife as Sarai.

The problem doesn't end there, one might say "well Abraham wrote the Book after he became Abraham and just didn't use his old name".

The problem is that the Book of Abraham ends before Abram is given his NEW NAME by GOD.

The Book of Abram covers the time from Genesis 12 through Genesis 14.

Abram's name is not changed until after his second trip into Egypt, after Ishmael is born. God says:

Gen 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."

So the Book of Abraham must therefore be a poorly thought out fraud. It not only uses Sarai's original name (not Sarah after Gen 17), but it clearly takes place several chapters before Genesis 17.

Abram at the time of writing the "Book of Abraham" could not have known his name would be Abraham.

If one canonical book is a fraud, the whole damn Church is a fraud.

reply to post by FreeMason


Or... He wrote the story after God changed his name but he just never finished it (or the rest of it was lost, or whatever). I have no answer re: the Sarai thing. Maybe he started getting all Alzheimer-y. Maybe he liked calling her Sarai cuz it turned that old man on. Who knows.?

My question to you, however, is why do you seem to care so much about whatever someone chooses to take on faith? I think the whole Mormon story is made up by some guy with some weird ideas. But, if Mormons aren't throwing rocks at you or declaring Jihad against the non-believers, who cares?

35Foxtrot
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Or... He wrote the story after God changed his name but he just never finished it (or the rest of it was lost, or whatever). I have no answer re: the Sarai thing. Maybe he started getting all Alzheimer-y. Maybe he liked calling her Sarai cuz it turned that old man on. Who knows.?

My question to you, however, is why do you seem to care so much about whatever someone chooses to take on faith? I think the whole Mormon story is made up by some guy with some weird ideas. But, if Mormons aren't throwing rocks at you or declaring Jihad against the non-believers, who cares?

The Great Commission says that we would care, I don't have a much better reason than that, than a yearning to let the truth be known. We are a lamp unto the world, it does not get placed under a bowl.

When in the Poseidon Adventure with Gene Hackman many of the passengers were led by a false prophet to the bow, he passionately yelled out to come to the stern, that the bow was under water. He cared, even tho he had no reason to save their lives.

reply to post by FreeMason


OK, Mr. Hackman. See, I'd go with someone like Steve McQueen if I had to draw movie star equivalencies to my existence. But, this ain't the movies.
Look, I'm Catholic. However, I feel no need to disprove others' honestly held beliefs - despite the history of Catholicism (or maybe because of it). If they ask me, I will explain what I believe and why. It's up to them to accept what I was taught is the "true religion." I can't make them come to God. I can't make them believe their god isn't the "right" one. I can only share what I believe and why, and hope they make the right choice.
If your goal is to "disprove" Mormonism and save all those Mormons from their Poseidon-like religion, all you're gonna accomplish is, for the most part, to bring about reactionary defense of Mormonism by those who do believe in it. Sure, I see your point. Mormonism is silly. They're not going to Heaven like you are. I agree to a point. But pointing out this silliness or wrong-headedness or contradictory story is just going to reinforce those opinions already held by non-Mormons. It's not going to change the minds of any real Mormons and, as such, works against your stated goal of showing them the way out of the capsized, sinking vessel.

35Foxtrot
reply to post by FreeMason

 

OK, Mr. Hackman. See, I'd go with someone like Steve McQueen if I had to draw movie star equivalencies to my existence. But, this ain't the movies.
Look, I'm Catholic. However, I feel no need to disprove others' honestly held beliefs - despite the history of Catholicism (or maybe because of it). If they ask me, I will explain what I believe and why. It's up to them to accept what I was taught is the "true religion." I can't make them come to God. I can't make them believe their god isn't the "right" one. I can only share what I believe and why, and hope they make the right choice.
If your goal is to "disprove" Mormonism and save all those Mormons from their Poseidon-like religion, all you're gonna accomplish is, for the most part, to bring about reactionary defense of Mormonism by those who do believe in it. Sure, I see your point. Mormonism is silly. They're not going to Heaven like you are. I agree to a point. But pointing out this silliness or wrong-headedness or contradictory story is just going to reinforce those opinions already held by non-Mormons. It's not going to change the minds of any real Mormons and, as such, works against your stated goal of showing them the way out of the capsized, sinking vessel.

It's hard to be reactionary against fool-proof refutation of their own scripture. And God didn't say "Go sit in a closet until someone opens the door and asks you what your opinion of Me is."

reply to post by FreeMason


No but I'm pretty sure that Jesus (as God) would not be cool with your refuting based on your personal beliefs. As I pointed out in my first reply here, there are a few fairly reasonable explanations to your irrefutable proof that Mormonism is kooky - and a butt-load of barely reasonable ones that believers will be happy to provide. You wanna believe Mormonism is for dum-dums, cool. As I said, I think it's a silly story put together by a weird guy. But, I'm not gonna denigrate another's faith based on my theories. Especially when my theories have some sizeable holes in them as yours do.
Besides, if you want to point out inconsistencies in writings, the Bible is probably a good place to start.
Look, if I offended you, sorry. It just seemed weird to me that you'd concentrate on this semi-fringe cult when you've got the 800 lb gorilla of the Bible of the major guys to look at. My question was more out of curiosity as to why YOU felt the need to go after Mormons (thought maybe there'd be an interesting story there and I'm bored) specifically; not so much why we as humans should strive for truth wherever possible.
By the way, who was the big lady actress in Poseidon Adventure? I think her death scene was in the elevator? It's been a while since I've seen it.

S McQ

reply to post by FreeMason


Can I ask, what is peaceful about the action of trying to disprove someone's beliefs? Live and let live

Southpark did it best - Here's the full episode
30 minutes. It's educational and gets right to the heart of the problem with it.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Doesn't work outside US on the Internet. LOL even though I am an American living in the UK I am still barred from this.... I have heard about this clip and really wanted to see it.

When I was young man I was called on many times by missionary's from LDS..... I resisted at all costs.... but was told by my parent to be nice and not to be rude so for them it was a better than average call. Several years passed as I lived away in private boarding school they quit calling. When I returned to the area I was now interested in girls as for three years I was in a all boy school. My new girlfriend seemed to go to church a lot which was near us but she (like all my next GF lived on the other side of town) so it was easy to attend church to see her.

It became clear I was expected to go through the lessons. I did so and to this day I am glad I did cause I have opinions based on experiences than other people stories or emotions. At the end of the lessons I asked too many unanswerable questions and the only reply that was repeated was to bow in prayer and ask the Lord for faith.... This did not work. Imagine my surprise when my further calling on the home and request to see her was refused. I managed to talk to Roxanne by phone who said that I wasted 18 months of her time that she loved me and was broken hearted. Now IMHO I was too young for that kind of love... but she spelled it out.... My conversion would have been a family affair from being Baptised to confirmation! Since I rejected the church I had therefore rejected her. Long story shorten 4 years later she ran away from her family and lived with an older man...... That was the last I heard of her since I later joined the service and never came home again.

I found the church rather self serving and self interest. If you are not part of the church then you are outcast, not as I understood the teachings of Christ! IMHO.

Just used our friend Google LOL here is a clip for those like me outside the link viewing area....

vimeo.com...

The Book of Abraham, as translated by Joseph Smith, has been proven to be an Egyptian "Book of Breathings" funerary text after the translation of the Rosetta Stone allowed scholars to understand Egyptian text.

Of course you could disprove it with scripture, but seriously why bother?

I was an LDS member for years because my mother was a member and in my early years in the church I believed their stories. After reading up on the church's history and it's off shoots, I came to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a con-man that P. T. Barnum would have had a lot in common with.

It is basically a good church from the perspective of their emphasis on family values, genealogy, and disaster prepping, but they are organized on the Masonic model and Joseph Smith was trying to become a theocratic king of his own country - a god on earth more or less.

I finally got out a number of years ago and have not looked back since.

My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

35Foxtrot
reply to post by FreeMason

 

No but I'm pretty sure that Jesus (as God) would not be cool with your refuting based on your personal beliefs. As I pointed out in my first reply here, there are a few fairly reasonable explanations to your irrefutable proof that Mormonism is kooky - and a butt-load of barely reasonable ones that believers will be happy to provide. You wanna believe Mormonism is for dum-dums, cool. As I said, I think it's a silly story put together by a weird guy. But, I'm not gonna denigrate another's faith based on my theories. Especially when my theories have some sizeable holes in them as yours do.
Besides, if you want to point out inconsistencies in writings, the Bible is probably a good place to start.
Look, if I offended you, sorry. It just seemed weird to me that you'd concentrate on this semi-fringe cult when you've got the 800 lb gorilla of the Bible of the major guys to look at. My question was more out of curiosity as to why YOU felt the need to go after Mormons (thought maybe there'd be an interesting story there and I'm bored) specifically; not so much why we as humans should strive for truth wherever possible.
By the way, who was the big lady actress in Poseidon Adventure? I think her death scene was in the elevator? It's been a while since I've seen it.

S McQ

Actually Jesus is completely cool with it. You haven't offended me, I'm just restraining as hard as I can not to insult you by pointing out that you're probably not Christian, have a milktoast belief and would give up Catholicism if someone said convert to X or die. It's a lot of assumptions of your person, but your whole position just cries out weaksauce. Who knows....

The Bible doesn't have "Sizeable" holes in them, so I go around with confidence.

MichiganSwampBuck
The Book of Abraham, as translated by Joseph Smith, has been proven to be an Egyptian "Book of Breathings" funerary text after the translation of the Rosetta Stone allowed scholars to understand Egyptian text.

Of course you could disprove it with scripture, but seriously why bother?

I was an LDS member for years because my mother was a member and in my early years in the church I believed their stories. After reading up on the church's history and it's off shoots, I came to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a con-man that P. T. Barnum would have had a lot in common with.

It is basically a good church from the perspective of their emphasis on family values, genealogy, and disaster prepping, but they are organized on the Masonic model and Joseph Smith was trying to become a theocratic king of his own country - a god on earth more or less.

I finally got out a number of years ago and have not looked back since.

My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

I think it's more important to disprove the scripture within itself than it is to try and disprove the scripture's sources and etc. Most mormons explain that other translations of the Papyri are "wrong" so they just write it off.

But is Abraham himself wrong within the supposed correct translation? The fact that yes, he is, is very crucial.

The Mormon church is not a good church either, they are nice to your face, but if you sin, if you are seen as sinful they talk behind your back. I find more and more refugees from that church who were cast out like garbage every day.

I was in the Sauna and one day I talked about God quoting the Bible from memory with a friend in there, and like 2 or 3 weeks later a guy who happened to be there came up to me again and started asking questions telling me how because the Mormons threw him out of the church for remarrying.

I told him Paul says to rebuke and admonish 7 times at least lol.

But the point is the Mormons treat their sinful members like ###. And since everyone is a sinner, that makes Mormonism full of hypocrites.

MichiganSwampBuck
My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

That's great advice. Peel away all the other stuff. It's unimportant and not necessary to Christianity. To be a Christian means to believe in Christ and try to follow what He said ... and what He said is 'love God and love your neighbor'. It was short and to the point ....

FlyersFan

MichiganSwampBuck
My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

That's great advice. Peel away all the other stuff. It's unimportant and not necessary to Christianity. To be a Christian means to believe in Christ and try to follow what He said ... and what He said is 'love God and love your neighbor'. It was short and to the point ....

Bad advice If you want to start with NT Jesus sayings go ahead, but a lot of what Jesus says quotes the Old Testament.

But loving God and loving your Neighbor means spreading the Word of God to your neighbor, not very loving of you if all you do is build a fence together.

FreeMason

FlyersFan

MichiganSwampBuck
My advice is if you want to be a Christian, then just read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there.

That's great advice. Peel away all the other stuff. It's unimportant and not necessary to Christianity. To be a Christian means to believe in Christ and try to follow what He said ... and what He said is 'love God and love your neighbor'. It was short and to the point ....

Bad advice

If you want to start with NT Jesus sayings go ahead, but a lot of what Jesus says quotes the Old Testament.

But loving God and loving your Neighbor means spreading the Word of God to your neighbor, not very loving of you if all you do is build a fence together.

When I said read the parts of the N.T. the are JC's quotes and go from there, I didn't mean to ignore his references to the O.T. Also I never suggested to "build fences". I think that FlyersFan got my message better than you did FreeMason.

As for the those snide and gossipy Mormons that you feel infest the LDS church, they hardly sound like any kind of sincere Christians to me, regardless of their flavor of Christianity.

It really seems that you have a chip on your shoulder FreeMason, you should get over it already.

why do you seem to care so much about whatever someone chooses to take on faith?

Because people vote and oppress other people based on their faith.

A few of my favorite sources on this subject...

Cathy O'Brien in Trance-Formation Of America says the Mormon operation in Salt Lake City is a major center for Illuminati trauma-based mind control. The Mormons were an Illuminati creation, as I mentioned earlier, and its founders were all high-level Freemasons and Merovingian bloodline. The Rothschilds supplied their funding. Joseph Smith founded the Mormons after an "angel" called Moroni appeared to him in 1823, as I outlined earlier.

The Mormon buildings are adorned with Illuminati symbols. The inverted pentagram, the most obvious of Satanic symbols, can be found on the Temple at Salt Lake City, on the Mormon museum nearby, and on other Mormon properties. The pentagram is used in rituals to summon demons in Satanism and, in its inverted form, is said to be the sign of "Satan", the Goat of Mendes, or Baphoment.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Who funded the Mormon Church in start-up mode was the Zionist group B'nai B'rith. Do the math. Who else would want a fanciful fiction about the Lost Tribe of Israel coming to America to claim it as theirs? Think on that one and you might better understand why the 2% of Jews in America think all of it belongs to them. Many Mormons even refer to Utah as the Land of Zion. Think on that one, too.

Not one of the 'magnificent cities' cited in the Book of Mormon has ever been found by archaeologists. The simple reason is they were never built; it is a fairy tale based on plagiarism, not a religious text. The purported founder of Mormonism was convicted of fraud and witch-craft (divining), but the Mormons conveniently skip over the true history of their founder Joseph Smith.

www.rense.com...

Joseph Smith, along with Hiram Smith and Brigham Young, were the key figures behind the creation of the Mormon religion. They were of the elite of the elite Illuminati bloodline, the Merovingian or "Holy Grail" line, and were all high degree Freemasons. They were also Satanists and formed their "church" as a front for Satanic activity which very much still goes on today. Why wouldn't it, that is what it is there for.

The Mormon empire was funded into existence by the Rothschilds through their Kuhn, Loeb, bank which also funded the Russian Revolution and Adolf Hitler, and yet again B'nai Brith, the Rothschild intelligence arm and defamer of genuine researchers, was involved." The Mormons were also created as a front for Satanism and, like the Watchtower Society, Enochian magic.

Rothschilds, Rockefeller & the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons

Francis Chan has a couple videos that have some very interesting insight on this subject...

I told them my struggle is if you started with this (scripture), would you ever come up with your belief system? That is so hard to get from this book, if I just read this book... I can't get that from here, I can't get your mixing the book of mormon... here's my problem, I wouldn't come up with this whole theology if I started with this...

Cults always have a hidden agenda.

This is the only way they can keep the facade in place and prevent the people from learning the truth about what is really going on.

Cults always have hidden Mormon secret doctrines - Google Search

The Mormon church has hidden secret doctrines and rituals in its temples - Google Search

LDS hidden secrets - Google Search

Facts Mormons Won't Tell - Google Search

Teal Scott Mormon offshoot Blood Covenant - Google Search

Also make sure to check out Grant Palmer as well...

The author of this exceptionally clear & thoroughly documented book is an active, fourth-generation Mormon, a 34-year professional historian and Mormon-studies director at college-level religious institutes."

"The foundation events were rewritten by Joseph [Smith] and Oliver [Cowdery] and other early church officials .... This reworking made the stories more useful for missionary work and fellowshipping purposes. ... Is it right to tell religious allegories to adults as if they were literal history?" In short, this book recommends that practicing Mormons regard their foundation stories as inspirational fictions rather than as truthful history.

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins Amazon.com

THOUGHTS FROM READING An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins

it's probably better if you don't... they're absolutely convinced that God was a generous God... And that he freely gave us Jesus Christ.
God pays... And when he does... He Pays tremendously. As you already know.
But... his arrogance was most taxing... And Abraham's loyalty was most taxing for young Isaac. Not a day goes by when I don't wonder about arrogance and humility.
God is usury... aka theology...aka debt. God put himself in debt... And fortunately we got something out of it.... good old wise Jesus.