Hundreds of refugees feared dead off Lampedusa

pheonix358
It is tragic that so many lost their lives.

I do not know how it works in this part of the world. I do know how it works in Australia.

We, the masses are told that these people are refugees ... insert big sob story here ..... who only make $20.00 per month back at home ...... insert more sob story.

The truth is, that for a refugee family to get to the shores of Australia takes enormous resources. Typically they fly from their home country to somewhere like Germany, then onto Hong Kong and the last leg is to Indonesia where they then pay typically $10K per person for the boat trip. Why is the boat trip so expensive, because the boat is destroyed by Australia if it does not sink. To further complicate matters, these refugees throw their passports and other paperwork into the sea.

These people are not refugees. The countries they come from are poor. How does one get to fly around the world with a whole family and then afford the boat trip. The only way for them to do this is if they were involved in businesses that have big profits like, weapons, drugs and human trafficking. Refugees .... I think not.

I am sick and tired of hearing the sob stories. 'Oh, he was a goat herder.' No he was not.

Then if they get in, they want to change our society and turn it into the big mess they left. No thanks.

If you want to immigrate, get in line like everyone else. The fact is that as long as Africa keeps up with its population explosion there will always be this problem. Let them solve their own problems.

P

What the first world considers qualification for refugee status needs to be strongly reformed.

Wrabbit2000
I wonder if another point may not also be valid to add here. The world is, of course, ranked in levels of development. 1st, 2nd, 3rd world and so on. I didn't realize it went below 3rd world until spending some quality time with a Missionary out of North/Central Africa in 2011, but I learned a lot from that special lady. It's amazing to me how much some give for the benefit of others...but I digress....

If first world nations like the United States, Britain and others rise...the world, generally speaking, rises as well. not all couple hundred nations, of course. That's stupid to suggest (before someone does as a correction) however, there is no benefit to seeing the 1st world powers fall.

Uncontrolled immigration from 3rd-5th world nations IS bringing down the 1st world nations. Now to those already at the bottom...I can see how this is of no concern at best and a source of amusement most likely. They have nothing to lose. For a couple billion other people around the world who aren't struggling just to live?

Well....over-running 1st world nations by completely unskilled people, unprepared and unable to make it in London or New York or even a small town in Switzerland ...after coming from places were education and human decency are punch lines to a joke? That'll just bring all 1st world nations down closer to the bottom.

I know that tickles some people's sense of irony and cosmic justice ...but a few 100's of millions of people, whose lives get markedly worse for it happening, would likely disagree with the amusement. Violently, I'd imagine. In fact, they are starting to ...around the world.

My thoughts exactly, thank you for saving me the trouble!

If I could send you one hundred stars I would!

MaxSteiner
When you say "... the "New Normal" of finding natural balance to the new influx isn't pretty for the people who STARTED in the better standard of life." you are stating that you're unprepared to lower your standard of living EVEN if i meant greater equality for people around the world -I find that worrying in the extreme, because it means there is no hope for us ever. It is the demand for cheap goods and services in the West that keeps 3rd world nations poor.

Unless we are willing to lower our standard of living to improve that of the rest of the world we will always have an immigration problem, it's the only solution. Now that doesn't mean we need to let everyone into our country - but it does mean we might need to pay a sensible price for our coffee, chocolate, mobile phones, etc, etc ,etc - sadly, if the last 70 years are any indication - we are unwilling to do so.

Very revealing post, I'm surprised you've laid it all out.

I realize most people are uneducated on the subject, they clearly don't understand the consequences. I find it extremely worrying though that someone like yourself, a citizen, (despite the fact that you do understand the consequences) are willing to support an immigration policy so destructive to YOUR fellow citizens, friends, family, and neighbors.

I'm not willing to sacrifice my children's future, and the country my grand parents built.

Strakha
It isn't theoretically possible for Europe to help the rest of the world in any meaningful way via immigration or any other method regardless of its intentions to do so. The EU accounts for about 7% of the global population and has very few natural resources compared to many other regions. Geographically the EU is about 1/7th the size of Africa (EU - 4,324,782 sq km, Africa - 30,221,532 sq km ), has about half the population and many times less population growth. The idea Europe can make a meaningful difference is largely a result of colonial attitudes from back in the days when Europe was a much larger percentage of global population and wealth.

edit on 6-10-2013 by Strakha because: (no reason given)

^^^

jescowhite100

MaxSteiner
When you say "... the "New Normal" of finding natural balance to the new influx isn't pretty for the people who STARTED in the better standard of life." you are stating that you're unprepared to lower your standard of living EVEN if i meant greater equality for people around the world -I find that worrying in the extreme, because it means there is no hope for us ever. It is the demand for cheap goods and services in the West that keeps 3rd world nations poor.

Unless we are willing to lower our standard of living to improve that of the rest of the world we will always have an immigration problem, it's the only solution. Now that doesn't mean we need to let everyone into our country - but it does mean we might need to pay a sensible price for our coffee, chocolate, mobile phones, etc, etc ,etc - sadly, if the last 70 years are any indication - we are unwilling to do so.

Very revealing post, I'm surprised you've laid it all out.

I realize most people are uneducated on the subject, they clearly don't understand the consequences. I find it extremely worrying though that someone like yourself, a citizen, (despite the fact that you do understand the consequences) are willing to support an immigration policy so destructive to YOUR fellow citizens, friends, family, and neighbors.

I'm not willing to sacrifice my children's future, and the country my grand parents built.

edit on 7-10-2013 by jescowhite100 because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-10-2013 by jescowhite100 because: (no reason given)

I don't think the Native American's wanted to sacrifice their way of life to people coming to their lands pre-immigration policy.

At any rate, what are you willing to sacrifice? Your way of lifestyle in the USA now and for your grandparents?

In my opinion the Earth cannot afford "1st world" lifestyles and things needed to change years ago. However, because those lifestyles are out there, concentrated to certain nations, there will always be people wanting to move there. There are not enough resources on the planet to sustain these lifestyles now, and especially not in the future.

Philippines
In my opinion the Earth cannot afford "1st world" lifestyles and things needed to change years ago. However, because those lifestyles are out there, concentrated to certain nations, there will always be people wanting to move there. There are not enough resources on the planet to sustain these lifestyles now, and especially not in the future.

I don't believe the world can afford to take a step backwards as the greatest threats to life on earth in my view are mass extinction events such as the meteor that ended the dinosaurs and to help ensure our species doesn't suffer the same fate progress and the technology it brings must be maintained. Utopia is impossible and there will always be nations and individuals who are better off than others but there is every reason in the world to believe developing nations like Africa in the future will make the standard of living today in even the best nation look poor and backwards.

I have every reason to believe this is possible as progress requires only the political will to allow humanity to reach its potential. This is something no single nation or even group of nations no matter how powerful or wealthy can make happen or prevent as it will happen and needs to happen on a more individual level in the nations of the world.

The key pillars or at least good places to start are known to us and they include a stable government with proper representation of its people, national currencies not weighed down and put under threat by debt and at the mercy of creditors, personal responsibility and a society that holds one accountable for their own actions, religious tolerance and last but not least freedom of speech and expression as this is the driver of technology and progress in general.

When Africa achieves this and I believe they will as its impossible to destroy ideas and the human spirit and desire to better oneself it will be the center of humanity again. The resources wealth is there to make this possible and while population growth rate is currently at unsustainable levels the continent is far from being overpopulated. This could take a hundred years or a thousand but I would bet on future generations everywhere on earth having better living conditions than anywhere on earth has today. Just look at how far we have come in the last thousand or even last hundred.

My biggest fears that may prevent or significantly postpone such a future come from asteroids, nuclear war or climate change whether human or natural but I also believe we are capable of adapting to any problems we encounter. There is no doubt going to be very significant sacrifices along the way as there always has been in the past when anything of importance has been achieved.

This last part is the most relevant to the topic and important to both the post I quoted and the topic. I don't believe you need to pull those with wealth down to raise those without it. Communism was based on this and failed horribly because of it. Such ideals won't work on an national level and certainly won't work on a international level.

The idea making a small percentage and declining percentage of the population that represents the 1st world less wealthy would fix anything is complete nonsense in my view. If you look at the numbers involved and future projections for those numbers it isn't even in the realm of possibility. People need to look to themselves to solve their problems and in the situation someone else does offer their help be grateful for that help as the allocation of the wealth on any endeavour should be up to the individual or representatives of those individuals who have a political mandate from their population.

Strakha

I don't believe the world can afford to take a step backwards as the greatest threats to life on earth in my view are mass extinction events such as the meteor that ended the dinosaurs and to help ensure our species doesn't suffer the same fate progress and the technology it brings must be maintained. Utopia is impossible and there will always be nations and individuals who are better off than others but there is every reason in the world to believe developing nations like Africa in the future will make the standard of living today in even the best nation look poor and backwards.

What is your definition of taking a step backwards?

I think humanity can make steps that are positive for the Earth, but it may or may not require some lifestyle changes.

If a giant meteor came to the Earth that was large enough to cause an ELE on Earth, is there any known technology today that could stop it?

Strakha
I have every reason to believe this is possible as progress requires only the political will to allow humanity to reach its potential. This is something no single nation or even group of nations no matter how powerful or wealthy can make happen or prevent as it will happen and needs to happen on a more individual level in the nations of the world.

The key pillars or at least good places to start are known to us and they include a stable government with proper representation of its people, national currencies not weighed down and put under threat by debt and at the mercy of creditors, personal responsibility and a society that holds one accountable for their own actions, religious tolerance and last but not least freedom of speech and expression as this is the driver of technology and progress in general.

I agree with you politics are the point of weakness choking any chance for "change" to alternative ideas. There are simply too many old people in power who refuse to let go of power and die.

On the key pillars you bring up, from my perspective the first place to start is the immediate family, then extended family, then community, and then region-wide on up. Nowadays people know more about their electronic gadget than their grandparents. It makes it very easy for the powers on top to manipulate a populace who is divided to a point where the family argues with each other.. and worse.

The other points you mention are for a larger more advanced society. I think currency has its good points, but barter can work fine as well, if you're in a region where you can haggle it's usually fine to try.

I'm with ya on freedom of speech =)

Strakha
When Africa achieves this and I believe they will as its impossible to destroy ideas and the human spirit and desire to better oneself it will be the center of humanity again. The resources wealth is there to make this possible and while population growth rate is currently at unsustainable levels the continent is far from being overpopulated. This could take a hundred years or a thousand but I would bet on future generations everywhere on earth having better living conditions than anywhere on earth has today. Just look at how far we have come in the last thousand or even last hundred.

Yes, Africa does have resources because it is not being as exploited as the rest of the world. What I would hate to see is for the same repeated mistakes of the West to be propagated to Africa, which would in the long term destroy anything that was 'natural' in Africa.

Strakha
My biggest fears that may prevent or significantly postpone such a future come from asteroids, nuclear war or climate change whether human or natural but I also believe we are capable of adapting to any problems we encounter. There is no doubt going to be very significant sacrifices along the way as there always has been in the past when anything of importance has been achieved.

This last part is the most relevant to the topic and important to both the post I quoted and the topic. I don't believe you need to pull those with wealth down to raise those without it. Communism was based on this and failed horribly because of it. Such ideals won't work on an individual level and certainly won't work on a national level.

The idea making a small percentage and declining percentage of the population that represents the 1st world less wealthy would fix anything is complete nonsense in my view. If you look at the numbers involved and future projections for those numbers it isn't even in the realm of possibility. People need to look to themselves to solve their problems and in the situation someone else does offer their help be grateful for that help as the allocation of the wealth on any endeavour should be up to the individual or representatives of those individuals who have a political mandate from their population.

edit on 8-10-2013 by Strakha because: (no reason given)

I'm not too worried about asteroids or meteors, there's really nothing you can do about them. I think being hit by a car while crossing the street is something much more realistic to be careful about.

As for the part on "pull those with wealth down to raise those without it" -- maybe there was some confusion. There will be haves and have nots, but my point is that the current consumerism lifestyle going on in mostly 1st world countries that exploit the resources of other nations is an unsustainable way for Earth to survive. If that means people living a lifestyle of a giant carbon footprint need to change their ways instead of making places with minimal carbon footprints change theirs.

For example, the 1st world needs iron ore to make iron, to later become steel. Over time iron resources have dwindled, forcing companies to go further into nature to mine more iron. This displaces villages and renders the land useless and the nearby water usually contaminated. Great legacy for the grandchildren.

Another example would be wood for paper, construction, vanillin, and whatever else. Companies clearcut forests, destroying habitats for animals and the resources for nearby villages.

All of these activities to fund "progress" destroy the Earth. It cannot continue indefinitely because the Earth does not renew the resources at the rate humankind's amount of demand.

Thanks for the response, I hope this isn't too off topic =b

reply to post by Philippines


You make some good points I had not thought about and on many issues I feel we are in agreement or at least not significantly opposed in view point. Except perhaps on our views of how resources can be managed and what will be possible with technologies of the future. As these technologies and methods have yet to be created it could simply be the optimist in me believing they will eventuate but there has at least been a push toward sustainable management in recent years and increased focus on developing technologies that can assist with it.

Also this is not the only planet in existence and eventually we will have to find a way to leave it because our sun itself has a life span. I think we have a few problems to solve before that one to say the least but without progress that and the many other things we could accomplish are impossible.

I also agree you are correct that our discussion is now straying off the topic and we should find or create another thread more relevant if we wish to continue along these lines of thought as large parts of our discussion are no longer about migration.

And one more,
at least 250 Humans on Board,
70 Bodies already found:
Source:

We need to find answers without risking their Life!

News just come in in English!

Boat with 200 migrants capsizes off Lampedusa

ROME (AP) — A boat carrying an estimated 200 migrants has capsized off the Sicilian island of Lampedusa where a shipwreck last week left more than 300 dead.

USA-Source: