rape prevention , by " teaching men not to rape " a concept ?

captaintyinknots
reply to post by snowen20

 

Thanks, for the links by the way.

Yup.

Okay..

A)Because one focuses on the victim, one on the perpetrator; B)Because males are simply not taught 'not to rape' like women are taught not to get raped.

They"re Not? So, how exactly do you teach someone of the opposite sex? By nature one is receptive the other is not. By receptive I don't mean to the concept of being violated. I mean by the nature of sex in general. Women are taught how to not be violated by men. Men are told NOT to Violate women. How do you want them to be taught in the same way if they as animals serve two distinct purposes sexually?

Women, are told to avoid X situation to prevent rape from potentially occurring. Or not to dress how they want, or not to walk alone...basically to always fear it.

Okay..

Are they?

Uhm,...... Yes I'm afraid so. If you are a man and this was NOT taught to you, then I legitimately feel sorry for you.

Were they? By who?

Again,...... A very strong and ridiculously obvious (YES)... By who?...Well, just to name a few, Mothers, Fathers, brothers, sisters, preachers, teachers, Police, McGruff the Crime dog. The list can continue, but for the sake of brevity "Neighbors".



Reading over the links.

captaintyinknots
reply to post by kdyam

 

I believe you are being to simplistic with it. Its not about holding a class teaching how not to rape. Its about a general change in the way we educate people about such things. Its about teaching kids. Its about a societal shift in the way we approach it.

I just read this after I had posted my previous comment, so I'm a little behind in posting.

Can you explain to me in your own words how you think such a societal shift should occur if you feel that what men are being taught (Or not from your perception) is lacking?

If men are told to treat others with respect, including women, and not to violate them in ANY WAY what else would you teach? I'm asking in sincerity. I know the thread has become heated, so do not read the wrong inflection into my text please.

Thanks.

captaintyinknots
reply to post by kdyam

 

I believe you are being to simplistic with it. Its not about holding a class teaching how not to rape. Its about a general change in the way we educate people about such things. Its about teaching kids. Its about a societal shift in the way we approach it.

I don't agree... I am 37 years old and have been taught since middle school about improper touching and that we don't force ourselves on people the whole time. There are statutes for almost every employer about teaching sexual harassment and they include rape. Add in those after schools specials and at least a few rape episodes on most mainstream T.V. shows.. everyone knows that rape is bad. It is simplistic... DON'T RAPE!! We all hear it almost every day in some form or another. Kids know that rape is bad... if you don't believe me just ask one. The way it is approached in society is that rape is a felony... the rapists know it.. the would be rapists know it... how can you not see this? These people know what they are doing is wrong and they do it anyways... no class is going to change that. I have yet to see a problem that does not have a simplistic solution it's just that people think too much about it and complicate things in the process.... it's how it is ... it's life, there are good and bad.. and we will never be rid of the bad and we need to know this.. it's the same approach of how I teach my kids how not to talk to strangers.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


The meme originally came about in response to oppose "blame the victim" tactics used by many that effectively say " if you didn't wear that, drink that, show that, say that or go there' - then you wouldn't have been raped'. This blaming of the victim dogma is prevalent in the policing and court systems around the world and is also widely embedded in public consciousness around the world. The reply to this stance demanding women acquiesce to rapists by changing their dress and behavior, being a case of " don't tell me what not to wear or do - tell men not to rape!" As usual, that underlying struggle and its focus seemed to get lost in translation yet everywhere women and men are standing to express solidarity with this 'turn around', with varying degrees of success.

Americans were relatively late to the party, it began this time around, in India, in 2002 after a five year old girl was raped and dumped outside a hospital and there, the pink sari group took up the mantle of protection of young girls by grabbing big sticks and beating the hell out of offenders as police stood by time and again and let offenders off or blamed the female. And so there at least, courts and police were forced to act and change and make public statements against " acceptable" rape for the first time in an absolute sense. So they re-founded the message there and began to sing the ' dont rape' mantra in order to willfully oppose the 'acceptance' of rape in communities and in institutions. And it has to start there, in homes, in communities if it is to work at all in 'educating' men that rape is wrong and why as it isn't just a way of thinking that needs to be undermined, its community 'tradition' that needs to be addressed.

In Australia a wide social discussion on this issue began again after a radical mufti stated on national radio here that women who he felt dressed like meat "deserved" to be raped. Thankfully there was a huge social backlash against that draconian view here and now we have yearly ' slut walks' with women wearing ' STILL NOT ASKING FOR IT" slogans on their thighs and chests in shorts skirts or shirts as they march. Kudo's to them too. I walked once as well with a group of survivors and it was an amazingly liberating experienced to feel ABLE to not blame myself for the first real time.

From the west it has again spread around the globe in waves, even to the streets of Pakistan and the UAE and other socially and politically oppressive countries where you can still be imprisoned for being the victim of drugging and rape - a view permeated even the European and US systems where if you are raped *you* effectively become the criminal by proxy given how you are treated in the system meant to support and defend you.

The US caught on to it in a big way about the time those footballers raped that young, drunk, unconscious girl - when nearly the entire town and I dare say a good portion of the nation, set about blaming HER for being raped while unconscious as if somehow, even though unconscious, she had had a choice or say in it - rather than blaming the rapists themselves. Many groups not just feminist groups took up the battle cry after that and as battle cries go, DON'T RAPE seems pretty simple and to the point. Until that sinks in where it is needed, what's the point of saying more?

The meme itself is a rational response to the idiocy of religious and wider gender oppression, except (imo) that it can often push the issue of personal accountability too far into the background. That said, it is intended to address the 'silent' majority' as well - those who hold views that some women deserve rape and some don't. Kind of like the ' deserving and non deserving poor'. Its those views that are the most dangerous as those views lead to the silence that has led to rampant rape in our communities.

Unlike poverty, (yet), rape is a crime and so a criminal problem not just a womens issue, and while women mostly, are the ones to experience the consequences of this problem, teh reality is that it is essentially a MENS problem not a "womens problem" at all and so the message being sent by this mantra does need to be directed at the source of the problem - men*.

I am happy men here are offended by the notion of being told not to rape, you SHOULD be! And yes, it SHOULD be common sense! Sadly, in reality, it isn't. Rather than expending or directing your anger at 'feminazis' or womens groups though, consider for a second that it is *men* who are out there on the streets saying that *men* are incapable of self control and 'need' to rape or ' are so easily tempted to rape'. Your fellow men are the ones who are saying that you as a man are a mindless unaccountable animal unable to control yourself! Not women. ( this is the essence of justification for the abuse of women's rights under sharia law!)

Women are simply saying you CAN control your urges and more, you have a responsibility to do so, because we know that you ARE NOT the mindless animals these men are saying you are!
So wheres the problem? (asked rhetorically I am not getting into debate on this)

I'd be offended too if I was a man and someone said I was an uncontrollable animal. I'd be standing right beside the protesting women saying ' don't rape' with a huge placard reading "one man who knows rape is wrong", if only to show and shame other men into examining their attitudes , if not stand up for and with survivors and victims that your kind do actually exist and are out there in the world, because goddess knows, some days it feels like all the good men really are gone or disappearing fast.

You do not slip and fall into someones vagina. Rape is a conscious choice being made by some men because they think they CAN and they feel are entitled to it, men who like the cowards they are, need the protection of their cohorts and the silence or acceptance of wider communities in order to justify their CRIME . Unlike murder or assault where there can be a degree of misadventure or mitigating circumstances that can explain ( not excuse but explain) a set of circumstances, NOTHING ever justifies rape and no one ever 'asks for it' - ever - under ANY circumstances. Even those in 'kink' lifestyles who explore rape/rapist sexual fantasies as a passionate hobby, tend to do so in coupled and trusting partnerships with strict boundaries and safe words in place.

This message that rape is wrong *hasn't* gotten through to all men as women are still being raped around the world at a rate of approx 7 rapes per second even today. And with attitudes like this - "... 33% of police officers agreed with the assertion that "some women deserve rape" and 66% agreed that "the physical appearance and behaviors of women tempt men to rape" existing among those who are meant to be aiding women, its no wonder there is a backlash occurring.

The question behind this social meme is - are you an animal or not? And women AND men, world wide are finally asking it. This, to me, is a GOOD thing and all I can say is - about bloody time!


Ro

(*men being offenders in 96% of cases and not to ignore, rather to include male rape victims of men as well)

I hate to stray off topic, but the thing that quirks my interest is the amount of women that orgasm during a rape. Now, we are told that women are more "mental" and men are more "visual" when it comes to orgasm. So then why do some women orgasm during rape? Is it because subconsciously that excites them? Rape is definitely physical and mental....


Fyi, im against rape. Later, when i get on the pc, i will provide links that show how rape is looked upon

reply to post by kimish



I found some articles that explain some of what you asked. I'm posting some parts of it here, but if you have the time and are really interested in finding out more about this subject, I'd recommend you to check out the numerous links that it provides.

Quite simply, our bodies respond to sex. And our bodies respond to fear. Our bodies respond. They do so uniquely and often entirely without our permission or intention. Orgasm during rape isn't an example of an expression of pleasure. It's an example of a physical response whether the mind's on board or not, like breathing, sweating, or an adrenaline rush.

Therapists commonly use the analogy of tickling. While tickling can be pleasurable, when it is done against someone's wishes it can be very unpleasant experience. And during that unpleasant experience, amid calls to stop, the one being tickled will continue laughing. They just can't help it.

Adding to the issue is that sexual arousal and orgasm appear to originate from the autonomic nervous system-- the same reflex-driven system that underlies heart rate, digestion, and perspiration. Our control over sexual arousal is no better than our control over the dilation of our pupils or how much we sweat. The presence of sexual arousal during rape is about as relevant to consent as any of these other responses.

(I'm putting the most important part in bold and making it bigger just in case someone doesn't have time to read the quotes)

Arousal and orgasm during rape happen. Probably much more often than we know. It is not a sign of guilt or pleasure. It in no way indicates consent. It is a sign that our bodies react, just as they do with a rapid heartbeat or an adrenaline rush.

What Science Says About Arousal During Rape




Also, here are two Reddit's AMA of a therapist talking about it:

Sexual assault therapist discussing orgasm/arousal during sexual assaults/rapes.

IAMA sexual assault therapist discussing when orgasm happens during rape.


I hope this helps.

reply to post by Casandra


are you mounting a scientific argument for why rape is acceptable?

AthlonSavage
reply to post by Casandra

 

are you mounting a scientific argument for why rape is acceptable?

Where do I say that?

I'm simply providing some links that could help answer the question of the member above me. Here's what he said:

kimish
So then why do some women orgasm during rape? Is it because subconsciously that excites them?

And the articles I linked explain that just because arousal happens it DOES NOT mean it was wanted. It's just the body reacting, just like it reacts to fear.

Don't put words in my mouth that I've never said. I'm actually quite confused as to how you could come up with that conclusion from my post.

reply to post by Casandra


It was my impulses that drove me to write what I wrote. You see impulses are not an excuse of bad behaviour

Teaching anyone to "not do something" by "telling them not to do it" is... well.

Telling people not to masturbate, have sex before marriage, use drugs, drink, dress inappropriately, and so many other things have worked so well for our culture, right?

I'm sure this will work just as well.

I think the best way to teach men to not rape is to teach most women a little krav maga and let the responsible ones carry concealed weapons. Of course you'd need decent laws that punish attackers not victims, and expect people to defend themselves not BE victims, so I guess you'd want to implement this someplace more like Oklahoma City and less like San Francisco.

Rapists are usually bullies picking on someone they expect to be weaker. Small animals, children, women, are bully targets. When they no longer seem weaker, they no longer seem like such good targets.

On the other hand, teaching women some basics like "Gee, maybe a woman alone in the park in the dark is not wise" would probably help. I totally agree she should be ABLE to walk/jog alone in the dark in the park. But I should also be able to walk peacefully through the foothills in the lovely dawn light without worrying about over-hungry wolves or cougars after a bad winter. It is less what 'should' be and more what 'is.' To some degree this goes for date rape also, although I'm a little biased about that having suffered it (an experience that led to more rage against myself than the guy, weirdly, probably some side-effect of cultural biases against women I have myself absorbed, despite being one).

I think it would also be useful to our culture to have a better definition of rape, though. A makeout session that goes to the Nth degree before "no" (that often means or ends up yes -- except sometimes) should not in my view be anything like, some guy jumps you in the parking lot when you're walking to your car after work. Part of the reason I mention this, is because the "teach men not to rape by telling them not to" is likely to be claimed as useful when used on the men who would have fallen into the former category. And while all very well to stave off a few of those sorts of rapes, it's just an unfortunate misdirection for statistics to think it would have any effect at all on the latter category.

reply to post by Casandra


Thank you, and i appreciate your response and you for not attacking me.

kimishI hate to stray off topic, but the thing that quirks my interest is the amount of women that orgasm during a rape.

Men do too. In fact, I have known many women who've been raped, and quite a few men (often when they were young), and more men have admitted that to me than women. It makes it like being raped twice, they say. First by the rapist, but also by your own body, like the ultimate betrayal, and makes it emotionally vastly worse after (especially if the rape was by another man).

I have known very few women who said they were anything but terrified and enraged during it though, and I don't think they were hiding it, I just think it's not super common. You phrased that as if it's the norm or even the dominant experience (I imagine men like to think that), but I'm pretty sure it is not at all -- it's normal in that "sometimes it can happen," but probably fairly rare compared to the overall quantity of rape events.

Edited to add: which makes sense when you think about it. Getting women to orgasm even during consensual events can be enough work lol.

reply to post by RedCairo


Thank you, I appreciate your response.

Are we suggesting that teaching humans anything in general that is controlled by hormones and/or mental issues can actually happen?


Any kind of behavior modification starts at a young age, and we see this already. My kids today can not play tag at school because it is aggressive. When I was in school you could get your butt kicked with no repercussions for the one that did the kicking, once again today it is a much different picture.

One thing to think about... young women today are much more aggressive sexually than in the past so I'm not sure how that plays in to this scenario, but it doesn't help the cause. True rapist have a mental issue, a date raper most likely has empathy issue, both are really not something that teaching would help very much.

Holy crap, as a woman, i find this idea wholly ignorant and insulting. Only men need to be taught this? And all men are potential rapists? WTH, blatant sexism much? Let's try this on for size with other wrongs, m'kay?

All mothers are potential offspring killers. Ergo, all mothers need to be taught not to kill their children.

All Hispanic people are potential drug smugglers. Ergo, we need to teach all Hispanic people not to smuggle drugs.

All black people are potential drug dealers. Ergo, all black people need to be taught to not sell drugs.

All churchly folk are potential child molesters. Ergo, we need to teach all church-goers not to molest kids.

All Muslims are potential terrorists. Ergo, we need to teach all Muslims not to become terrorists.

All backwoods country folk are potential bestiality fiends. Ergo, we need to teach all country folk not to abuse their animals.


That one-sided "threat" looks pretty damn stupid from other perspectives, doesn't it? In reality, Mothers & Fathers alike have killed their kids, Hispanics aren't the only people who've smuggled drugs, black people aren't the only drug dealers, religious people aren't the only child molesters, Muslims aren't the only ones who've committed terrorist acts, and bestiality is not limited to the county people.
How about instead of targeting one cherry-picked group, we make sure everyone knows not to do something appalling? In the case of rape, I don't give a flying crap who thinks which gender is more responsible statistically. The fact of the matter is, both genders harbor rapists, and offenders of both genders are heinous sacks of crap. Until more men feel they can come out of the shadows and report their rapes without being socially humiliated for it, those statistics are skewed ANYWAY, so stuff that responsibility number where the sun doesn't shine.

In a just society, no one would dare stoop to this kind of sexist blame game. They would teach both genders rape is wrong, equally. We have a long, long way to go before it's socially acceptable to consider that men can be raped.

reply to post by Nyiah


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AthlonSavage
reply to post by Casandra

 

It was my impulses that drove me to write what I wrote. You see impulses are not an excuse of bad behaviour

Seemed like more of a knee-jerk reaction coupled with a language comprehension problem.

Would be nice to stop the use of 'rape' as an acceptable verb, especially with younger generations.

Its all too common to hear 'You got raped in that match/game etc.', or such delightful constructs as 'Face Rape', or 'Rape Cage' within normal banter and gaming parlance. (Rape Cage got banned as a publicly viewable term of use in that game in the end).

Attributing any form of domination/superiority in an acceptable situation as a 'rape' reduces the impact and thus the significance of its actual meaning leading to actual rape being considered less serious than it is, and even associated with being a good thing as the 'rapist/s' are the victors in those terms.

Language is a powerful behavioural modifier, especially in a growing mind.

reply to post by Tidnabnilims


You make a good point. Rape has taken on alternative meanings (much like "violation" has) and I have seen those usages in games myself. "so-and-so was totally raped in PVP" or "That XYZ mission/quest completely raped us, it was hard!" If we are to retain rape to define forcible sexual relations, and only that, we do need to curtail the usage in other forms. I think it's going to be extremely difficult to do, however. Language doesn't stay the same forever, it's always changing.