France bans children's beauty contests in bid to stop the 'hyper-sexualisation' of youngsters.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Yep, agreed there is still a lot more to protect children from in fact.

Thanks for the information on gymnasts I found a very interesting youtube video about them.
Here www.youtube.com...

Its really worth a watch! And shows you just how disgraceful people are that they expect this kind of perfection from youngsters and the cruel coachs involved in entertaining these audiences.

Its not being involved in these industries that's the issue is the PRESSURE TO BE SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE NOT! That is the issue.

FreedomEntered
Thanks for the information on gymnasts I found a very interesting youtube video about them.
Here www.youtube.com...

Its really worth a watch! And shows you just how disgraceful people are that they expect this kind of perfection from youngsters and the cruel coachs involved in entertaining these audiences.

Awesome... thank you for taking the moment to dig deeper into the topic!

FreedomEntered
Its not being involved in these industries that's the issue is the PRESSURE TO BE SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE NOT! That is the issue.

I'm right in line with you there and I think at the core, our concerns are shared. It's a huge topic, with the pageants being a good hot button aspect to work from... but there are huge swaths of our culture that fall into the same bucket but we're not wired to notice them or think of them that way.

Since we can't (from my vantage... shouldn't) ban every *activity* that a parent could push a kid to the point of being abusive... I'm interested in exploring how we address kids being forced into something with unrealistic demands. Especially before even having the chance to look around and as you mentioned... pick which one wants to be tried.

I wonder how many forced and pressured pianists wished they were playing soccer, and soccer players wished they were playing piano. There are always stories of those glad they went through it, but that's a bit like me saying I'm now glad I was a latchkey kid because I have excellent independence skills.

I'm not in favor of barging into homes... but I am in favor of creating an informed, non-deceptive, environment where both parents and kids are presented with the full spectrum of information regarding the activity they are about to pursue.

I wonder how many parents would keep their kids in football if the research showing the long term brain damage wasn't kept relatively quiet and was instead one of the first things taken into account before deciding to play.

The internet + teaching people how to independently research is a hugely valuable step.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Well pushy ie, involving some form of abuse/psychological/physical/mental/emotional/exploitation/sexual.

Invalidating what they are naturally, ie young, developing sexually still, or physically.

Do you enjoy watching these types of kids that appear to do things that seem " incredible"?

To be honest I stopped watching this kind of things years ago. I no longer get any kick out of it what so ever. Just for the fact that you can sense there is a pushy teacher/coach/parent behind it and it just looks like damn hard work. And I know for one I wouldn't have wanted to work from age of 5yrs or younger so why would they?!

I wonder who the market audience really is . Like what they get from watching the end result of such cruelty. Or maybe as you said this goes unnoticed.

I am not sure if or how the laws have changed for gymnasts. But as they have said, the goal is in winning. Is it really? Is that all as a western society we want to WIN?
At the expense of peoples happiness. If that's how it is, I don't want the " pretty image". And often its this way.. just a glossy image with not a lot of substance.

FreedomEntered
Do you enjoy watching these types of kids that appear to do things that seem " incredible"?

I like seeing anyone excel at things. But it distorts my ability to appreciate it if I understand they hated getting there and it was someone else's dream implanted into them.

I did some "incredible" things as a kid... but they were activities I chose and thus was self motivated to pursue. I was very lucky in my upbringing environment in some ways.

To me a kid who loves physics and builds a reactor in his garage is just as interesting as an adult who can do some miracle physical moves. A kid who hates ballet is just as tough to watch as a person who hates their job but are financially trapped there.

FreedomEntered
I wonder who the market audience really is . Like what they get from watching the end result of such cruelty. Or maybe as you said this goes unnoticed.

Most people just don't think about it. Like they don't think about the animal that provided their food or the person who made their phone. We're all guilty to it *somewhere*... but there are different degrees for sure.

FreedomEntered
But as they have said, the goal is in winning. Is it really? Is that all as a western society we want to WIN?
At the expense of peoples happiness. If that's how it is, I don't want the " pretty image". And often its this way.. just a glossy image with not a lot of substance.

For some who were raised that way, and thus don't know anything different, yeah. Most people who are striving to win at the expense of happiness aren't *actually* jerks. They simply don't know any other way to be or how to interact/measure themselves. It's deeply wired, and a competitive parent who has to win won't have the first idea how to interact any differently with their child year after year.

On the bright side... if you instead decide to be good consistently but not necessarily always having to "win" life is WAAAAY more fun and less stressful and you still get all the deep rewards of a job well done.

Namaste... I'm a bit exhausted in this topic. Thank you again for the exchange!

FreedomEntered
reply to post by BardingTheBard

 

Kids can wear what they wish to, its not about that. Or completely nude in a lot of cases!

Teens will follow fashion and begin trying to attract the opposite sex.

Again little can be done about either and both are fine and acceptable.

Its when you mix the above with competition that the problems can begin with society as a whole. Like girls or boys comparing themselves to others constantly based on irrelevant issues such as looks.
The competition of kids is too much even in school the comparisons made constantly. When kids have such unique and varying gifts. Its all over the top. And honestly I think its just bullyish parents/teachers/judges who make this acceptable.

Its not just girls its also boys this effects.

edit on 22-9-2013 by FreedomEntered because: (no reason given)

So basically its the competition aspect you don't like? Show me something that doesnt involve competition at adolescence and at adulthood. Why should beauty pageants be any different?

Its not exploitation when people CHOOSE to do certain things. If I try out for the tennis team and fail should I feel rejected and cry about it? BTW this did happen to me. I felt bad a bit and then got over it. Some people were better than me.

In some fields looks is not irrellevant. When you are a high profile person it plays a big role. One must be at least halfway handsome/pretty, wear a suit and tie(or pretty dress for women), be polite and courteous, etc.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


I am sorry you have missed the point completely. Its bullying and exploitation I am against.

And I am stating that at a competition level, the parents become more pushier sometimes the exclusion of their children's feelings, health both physically and mentally.

Actually even in the UK they are removing competitions from some children's events altogether. You think the world isn't moving along on these issues - well it is! And rightly so...

If you don't know what is child exploitation admit that.

Competition that is healthy is fine. No one is saying that it shouldn't exist altogether.
No one is saying cover kids from head to toe. You really MISS THE POINT.

And you are showing a lack of knowledge on the issues of bullying that goes on between parents and children at a deep level sometimes.

Examples of bullying for success would be Micheal Jackson, Jodie foster, Judy Gardland. To name a few....

On the issue of well " models" aren't abused. They are when they are made to exploit their sexuality for " pay" or to " win" something. Its a world of shallowness they are heading for. And the world is better without it. They are picking teens and basically they don't want these teens to change physically, so they force them to eat food inappropriate for their growth and development. This is glaringly obvious, but its ignored constantly. Because they worship youth. It just is absurd.

We can wait till they are able to make adult decisions. In fact " interest" led activities are altogether better. Ie, if a child wants to be in fashion that's fine. But to leave them vulnerable within that industry is not fine, its neglect.
There needs to be more laws in place that's all. One day there will be. Especially with Frances lead.

reply to post by FreedomEntered


I am sorry but I just cant agree with your perspective. Sure bullying exists and I was really bullied into going for computer science courses at my local community college or else...find an apartment and get a job. I wanted to become a car mechanic, a professional golfer, join the military etc at different intervals of my adolescence. I ended up making my parents happy and I dont really regret it.

I dont know its something about sex and nudity in america that turns off lots of people, and they start making excuses here and there. It must be the puritan mentality and conservatism in general. I dont view the human body as sinful/dirty. I view it as a natural entity, just like a cats body or dogs body.

Now YES there is some exploitation going on and YES it is dirty business sometimes. Models are encouraged or even FORCED to be below their optimal weight which I think is both unhealthy and poor aesthetics. They shouldnt have to diet excessively and put their health at risk from anorexia. Also there cases of having to sleep with the boss to get the job and promotions thereafter. But this is true in hollywood, pornography, music bands, tv show personalities including news broadcaster, even the general business world to get promotions.

In other words exploitation happens in many places. Beauty pageants at a young age should be discouraged, I can agree with that. Or at least have better supervision and law enforcement. However when reaching adulthood one must accept responsibility for their decisions to accept the good with the bad consequences.

FreedomEntered
There needs to be more laws in place that's all.

And that will be where we disagree again.

BardingTheBard

FreedomEntered
There needs to be more laws in place that's all.

And that will be where we disagree again.

Some things are gray area and people will not agree with them. I guess its how you view the world, how you view the human body, what you consider exploitation, what is moral and ethical, etc.

Conservatives are full of taboos. Liberals less so, and progressives much less so.

That is what makes the world go round. Everyone is different.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


They are protecting them from bigger issues by banning.

I get that parents need to nag and push children/toddlers and especially teens sometimes into forming good habits. And simple things such as waking in the morning, to getting skilled up for their future.

But I think France is aware of where this sort of thing could lead to. Basically it could lead to utter degradation of children/toddlers/babies.

I honestly think its just sensible to stamp it out. Sooner rather than later.
I believe what vexed the person who contributed to the decision in France was a photo on vogue of a child in a fashion cover. You can see where it could lead should predators get any " strange ideas" .

And there is the issue of " child abuse " that effects a high percentage of kids. I think 1 in 48 children sadly. So many parents do it even if they don't commit their child to any " strange hobbies". More education on how to treat other humans should be begin at school.

Like treating others fairly, and not turning into a tyrant which many do naturally could be added to the school system to prepare kids for the real world. Instead of only the emphasis on academia.

I myself hated overtly sexual media as a teenager I simply wasn't emotionally mature enough for it. And to an extent I feel part of my childhood was taken away due to this " in your face sexuality" that is sold.

I wanted to be innocent for longer! But hey, what choice did I have...

I had a lot of fun in pageants when I was little. (early 80's) The only thing I hated was sleeping with curlers in my hair.
But all except for one photo (which I love btw) I looked like a little kid. Frilly dresses, minimal makeup. None of the sexualized stuff of today.
Actually the one where I look more made up was for a tap/ballet performance and not a pageant.

reply to post by FreedomEntered


At middle school and high school in new jersey there was plenty of promiscuity going back 20 years. Lots of peer pressure to. Of course the north east tends to be rough and liberal if you know what I mean. I had my fair share of fights, dating with girls, tryouts with tennis team, rotc, etc. I dont harbor bad feelings as I had both good and bad times.

I am not sure what laws will do in relation to teenage beauty pageants. At what age do these pageants start anyway? I thought 14 through 17? Someone who wants a high profile career normally chooses this risky path. If they cant handle it best not to get involved or simply quit.

What about gun laws? Do we need more or less of them? Do they really solve anything?

See I just turned it around on you. People ask censorship for things they dislike while encouraging other risky behavior.

Yes, they do those pageants where children don't have to wear so much make up, and dress up slutty and so on. Nor are they given tons of sugar so they behave as if they are super energetic .

Its called " natural" pageants and I see nothing wrong in those. The natural child's beauty stands out, as is the case with modelling at a younger age. And apparently in those types there is a lot less " competition" the emphasis is on competing with the self to do the best they can. Which is a novel and much more civilised idea.

For some reason photographers feel skinny people wear clothes well and look better on camera. So a woman's natural physique in even teenager years has to be warped with " baby foods" to keep them skeletal. Which they are not naturally.


The modelling world always makes this claim " they are like that naturally"
Its a bogus lie.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Beauty pageants start in baby years. I know it sounds funny but its true!
But the competition starts on the stage in toddler years.

Teen models are picked obviously for their " youthful " looks but as they are entering into a pedigree type ring, they have these absurd diets to stick to. Maintaining a skeletal appearance is what its about for them and it doesn't come naturally.

The parents I believe teach their kids that this is " beautiful" and that they are " special" by partaking in these competitions.

What's weird is I have noticed that 9 - 13yr olds can be quite skinny naturally . I guess its the higher metabolism and fast growth rate . So they end up looking rather like sticks!

Its interesting that this is what the designers most like aesthetically. I wonder why it is?
could be an MK thing?C I am clueless as to why honestly . I think all shapes and sizes can carry clothes as long as they are healthy.

FreedomEntered
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Beauty pageants start in baby years. I know it sounds funny but its true!
But the competition starts on the stage in toddler years.

The parents I believe teach their kids that this is " beautiful" and that they are " special" by partaking in these competitions.

If that is the case then they should definitely be banned. I thought 14 through 17, like teen miss new jersey or something. WOW that is pretty sick indeed.

And yes anorexia is very wrong. Being skinny is bad, bad. I am also against energy drinks like gatorade.

Keeping it natural is the best way to go.

What the hell did france ban then? I might have jumped the gun here and feel stupid...

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Its banned pageants. It banned kids being on adult fashion magazines selling adult goods.

A new law enacted on Tuesday night prevents anyone under the age of 16 from being judged on their physical appearance.

It says 16. It could be 14 with no harm. Maybe in the usa they have toddler contests.

gotta hit the sack. have to work tomorrow. thanks for discussion!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Well, indeed... 14 or even 10 might be a whole different thing. I don't know how one sets an age on looking like a prostitute, as many of these girls are made up to look. I guess the point where they can dress themselves that way vs. when a parent is doing the vast majority of it.

You could say the US has an...unhealthy...obsession with toddlers in these. This is a google image search for pics related to "Toddlers and Tiaras" which has been a major show here on the phenomenon.

Google Image Search set for Toddlers & Tiaras

I can see how people might think it's over-reacting...if not appreciating just HOW young and HOW sexualized the children actually are on this stuff.

It's great that this is put into place, especially from France. Hopefully America and other huge nations will also follow suit. Little girls should not have their esteem be shot at such a young age, in thinking that there's someone better looking than themselves.