France bans children's beauty contests in bid to stop the 'hyper-sexualisation' of youngsters.

Biigs
We are not talking about a Christmas play, where kids are dressed up like silly and fun things like trees, elfs santa and so on, we are talking about dressing up kids in whats usually regarded as adult sexy clothing and make up.

Dressing a man in women's clothing doesn't automatically make heterosexual men feel attraction to them.

Dressing a woman in a burqa doesn't automatically make heterosexual men NOT feel attraction to them.

What about these things that are also used and regarded as sexy clothing to some people?
People who have a thing for cheerleader uniforms
People who have a thing for school uniforms
Furries and Animal costumes
People who have things for "elves"
People who have a thing for dirty bare feet
People who have a thing for Disney Princesses
People who have a thing for bathing suits (one piece or bikinis)
People who have a thing for football and baseball pants
etc etc

What about people who don't consider "usually regarded adult sexy clothing and makeup" as attractive and in fact (such as myself) consider them anti-attractive. Is it ok for *them* to watch a show of kids dressed like street walkers?

Biigs
...and people wonder why theres so many pedos when this # is on TV for free to anyone to see.

Do they? Why would anyone have had to wait for TV to be attracted to children?

Is it your assertion that people turn homosexual when exposed to homosexual images?

Biigs
what about leather bondage clothing, would that be okay too in your eyes before "parents should be allowed to raise their kids how they want?" right?

What about dressing as soldiers? Ninjas? Hippies (drug culture)?

What about me being subjected to hurting and being hurt in sports as a little kid... despite me never wanting to play? Are you prepared to ban parents from pushing their kids to play contact sports? I have family members who are still paying the price from school age injuries... ranging from destruction of a knee to permanent brain damage from thousands of low level concussions.

Biigs
Leave the adult stuff for when they are becoming adults! and CERTINLY dont make it a cruel contest.

Children are becoming adults from the moment they are born. This is why try to teach to not hit, steal, etc. It would be kinda nice if we cared more about all the lies we teach virtually every child than kids wearing costumes that make you feel uncomfortable.

It is NOT my assertion to say "we should all sexualize our children and have them wear anything". It is my assertion that the reactions to "burn the evil!" haven't been thought through fully.

If people in here actually feel as passionately about this subject matter as they propose... you will do far more setting up groups to go OUT THERE to the kids and parents and talk with them. Setup support groups for kids/family members who don't want to participate but feel they have nobody to turn to.

Getting "someone else" to take care of it by passing a law... especially when that someone else is an organization that this entire website has REAMS of data proving can't be trusted to actually be doing what it claims to be doing or to even fulfill its stated goals... is just madness.

Education, not legislation. Information, not suppression.

In the beauty pageants they aim to be in these adult competitions.
Ie miss America and so on.

The aim is purely shallow.

Its their dream to have a child that looks and behaves like a Barbie . Because they are bored parents if you ask me.


I feel the age range should be extended to 18yrs old. In regards to men or women.. be them teens or kids representing sexuality. In my mind it shouldn't happen at all .

But I think the rewards for these parents can be great, money , maybe later on they become models, maybe they become famous. The sad fact is this media does worship looks and I am clueless as to why.

reply to post by FreedomEntered


Since when is beauty a bad thing? Everyone excels at something. The trick is finding it and making the most of it. People who have too many taboos dont get far in life.

And to be honest some of the models, tv personalities, porn actors, public relation figures, etc are a bit too skinny. IMO its just as bad as being fat.

FreedomEntered
I feel the age range should be extended to 18yrs old. In regards to men or women.. be them teens or kids representing sexuality. In my mind it shouldn't happen at all .

Have you considered the possibility you might participate in things that in MY mind shouldn't ever happen?

Ok... let's assume the age is set to 18.

Now let's take your other point:

FreedomEntered
In the beauty pageants they aim to be in these adult competitions.
Ie miss America and so on.

Do you think ambitious mothers are going to WAIT until their daughter is 18 to start training and conditioning them for the pageants?

No... instead they will have to find secretive and criminal methods to get a leg up. They will find ways to organize private clubs where they can prepare and practice so that when they turn 18 they have an advantage over the other girls. They will find clever ways to make it look like something else. "That's a lovely daughter you have there. I run a 'modelling prep-school" that prepares them for pageants at 18... would you like to come over for an audition?"

What do you think the conditions will be like for those girls? These are the sort of unintended consequences we have to think through fully before we start resorting to lawmakers across the country and people with guns and jails to solve our problems.

Are we actually *helping* anyone? If not... then no reason can be claimed for doing it other than: "It makes us feel good to do *something* at least."

FreedomEntered
Its their dream to have a child that looks and behaves like a Barbie . Because they are bored parents if you ask me.

Could it possibly having anything to do with how *they* were brought up? Not just that they are "jerks who are bored"? There are lots of options for curing boredom... going into pageantry is not a lightly taken decision unless it's already just a part of who you are... to the point where you might not have any sense of what it looks like from the outside.

Have you ever visited a family who "talks" via yelling? Or never raises their voice EVER? To them it's normal... but others entering that environment can become totally unnerved or even be incapable of communicating.

FreedomEntered
But I think the rewards for these parents can be great, money , maybe later on they become models, maybe they become famous. The sad fact is this media does worship looks and I am clueless as to why.

Same reason some people worship easy money.

Looks are the cheapest and easiest way for some girls/women to get what they want and to manipulate people... and DON'T want to let go of that power. Advertisers just continue that.

Especially since many girls basically own their fathers and the father is not strong enough to stand up to them. The girl is never forced to learn to respect that power and continues it on into adulthood with the same lack of restraint as a man who hasn't learned to control his muscular strength.

A man beating another man into submission is *also* the cheapest and easiest way for some to get what they want. We have a media that glorifies violence. We have an entire civilization ultimately built on shooting MANY people living in nations that don't behave the way a tiny group of people in other nations want.

Well I feel being bombarded with " shallowness" is a bad thing. I have never been interested in how people LOOK . I am however much more interested in HOW they are. Inside that is....

Is everyone really wanting to see over-sexualised little girls and even boys/teens? And for the record it can be damaging. There is research in this area to prove just that.

I have heard of what is called " natural pageants" which is much more concerned with keeping a child as a child. Its basically less make up and less adult clothing, and toned down sex appeal. I think that's a fair compromise.


Why should " beauty" be such a great thing, isn't it subjective anyway.

Models have never sold a damn thing to me. The product sells itself to me that's enough.

Is it okay that a mother subjects her daughter to watching a film such as " pretty woman" about a high class prostitute so she can emulate this on stage in front of a bunch of adult judges?

If so we live in a sad world. And its no surprise everything is down the drain when people are easily entertained by superficial concerns.

FreedomEntered
Is everyone really wanting to see sexualised little girls and even boys?

Is that really what you all get a kick out of?

I haven't seen a single person writing in support of that.

Is that what you really think is being discussed here?

What we are writing in response to is that this isn't the way to address it and it won't *actually* help anyone.

This subject matter is a platform from which to discuss the nature of who gets to decide what you can/can't do and how they go about it.

To explore all the other things that are not really any different from these pageants in terms of actual harm to children that people just take for granted and never think twice about. To ask... are you prepared to ban these too? There is more than enough medical data regarding the long term physical effects of contact sports on kids, not to mention the more subtle psychological effects.

To explore... is there a *real* way that will actually help educate and provide options for those who don't want to?

To explore... where is the cutoff on what is "too sexy" at "what age". Those in support of this ban have repeatedly made it clear that *my* cutoff is even harsher and more "conservative" than theirs for what is "acceptable" attire for girls that age... yet I'm not in favor of banning or telling another what to do.

To explore... do those posting in here only care enough to post some messages because it's a socially "kudo worthy" thing to do... or to actually go out and do something about those real life girls that are supposedly so near and dear?

FreedomEntered
Well I feel being bombarded with " shallowness" is a bad thing. I have never been interested in how people LOOK . I am however much more interested in HOW they are. Inside that is....

You can't legislate depth of personality. You can't legislate away shallowness.

I'm quite confident were I to explore your life you are engaging in activities I consider shallow. Some might consider internet discussion frivolous and shallow because few of us are actually out *there* doing anything... merely pontificating. Myself included.

I'm also quite confident give me a camera for a month and access to your life and I could make a TV show where people want to vilify you through intelligent editing that doesn't *lie* about you... but certainly... exaggerates to the point that you and those who know you know it's not a real representation of you.

Education, not legislation. Information, not suppression.

reply to post by FreedomEntered


Aren't sports shallow too? Its simply entertainment. I think people make it a bigger deal than it is.

The reason people enjoy superficial things is often because they have nothing better to do in their lives.

I like watching competitive golf especially the british open and usa open. Is this a waste of time? According to your logic it might.

Fashion models wear designer clothes and walk the runways so that big merchandisers can decide what to buy enmasse for their stores. Sometimes they suceed and sometimes they fail.

And who wants to see ugly people on tv? I rather would not. Its not good for their ratings. TV truely is fantasy land where people sit back, drink a beer and relax.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


You are wrong. Many people like to see sexualised kids. More than you could possibly imagined. Hence, why I feel France has taken a lead in what its done by banning this nonsense.

I explained what I think is unacceptable. Putting a little infant in front of TV to watch " pretty woman" so she can emulate a prostitute on stage for the entertainment of adults. I think its too much and too young.
I think if anyone had such a memory like that they may feel slightly " odd " about it.

The psychologists know what is too much. They do research on this for years. Thee issue is in the " entertainment" field little is done to protect children and that's the fact of the matter. Because everyone is half on the look out for the next Disney star type. Entertainment for the numb masses.

If you don't see how teens and kids are being over sexualised than you are blind. It seems to be trend. And photographers and the media don't care, they will ride it for what's its worth.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Exploitation is the issue. I am not talking about entertainment per say. I am speaking about protecting the vulnerable, namely the young.

FreedomEntered
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Exploitation is the issue. I am not talking about entertainment per say. I am speaking about protecting the vulnerable, namely the young.

I understand your conservative point of view, BUT normally people destined for the entertainment world start early to harness their skills, SO that when they become adults they can jump straight into what they WANT to do.

Whats cheap for you is expensive for others.

FreedomEntered
You are wrong. Many people like to see sexualised kids.

That wasn't what you were asking, and wasn't what I replied to. PLEASE this is a very challenging topic to get any realistic understanding on so it requires taking the time to absorb what is being said.

I didn't say there weren't people who like to see sexualized kids... I said that that *isn't* what is being discussed in *here* when you were asking us this:

FreedomEntered
Is everyone really wanting to see sexualised little girls and even boys?

Is that really what you all get a kick out of?

I tried to make it clear through many different paragraphs and approaches to demonstrate what it is about... and how these actions are "feel good" actions that do NOTHING to actually help or protect the girls in actual problem environments. These things *always* make it worse for those who wind up under the radar.

FreedomEntered
If you don't see how teens and kids are being over sexualised than you are blind. It seems to be trend. And photographers and the media don't care, they will ride it for what's its worth.

Now I know you aren't taking the time to read what is being written. The complete opposite is true... I do see the over-sexualization... and I see it so clearly that I'm trying to find every way possible to get people to start looking at the REAL source of it and deal with the REAL nature of it. Not just throw a law out there and expect it to get all better.

This law is "out of sight out of mind". Not "help girls".

Please re-read what I wrote... and if you have time... go back and look at my other posts and tell me whether you think I'm not quite aware of the over-sexualization. Which starts at home. With the mother and other "elder" female family members. They are the primary and best people to raise and teach girls how to ignore the siren song of using their body to get what they want. But they aren't. Because it's what they did. It's what they understand... even if it concerns them when they finally see it in their daughter.

Those in support of this ban have repeatedly made it clear that *my* cutoff is even harsher and more "conservative" than theirs for what is "acceptable" attire for girls that age... yet I'm not in favor of banning or telling another what to do.

It is my point that these things are concentrated reflections of behaviors, activities, and mindsets virtually the entire western culture is engaged in... but people want to identify the edges of it that *they* don't like (strippers, cabaret, pageants, whatever) and try to eradicate it while turning a blind eye to their own part of the wider issue.

I am not writing these posts for my own health.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


There is no evidence found that beauty pageant contestants will end up more messed up than anyone else.

Simply no evidence that they will end up worse off at all.

I think what makes France unique in this, is that " they" don't want to see kids dressed in such an entire and behaving like adults. Its not that they want to protect kids necessarily. I don't think.

They just don't want to engage in such shallow entertainment and I quite agree with them.


You know Michael Jackson is a prime example of a sexualised child, and look at the state of him, then again he was abused and admitted this was the case, in order to get him into that industry.

Where were the laws protecting him? There were none. He had no rights at that point.
So we could say well no beatings, no Michael Jackson? Well not necessarily, maybe today we would see just a more toned down Jacko.

So pressuring kids into anything I think is nonsense. Why not wait until they show interest in something?.. But the media never does!!!!!!!!!!

It even goes so far to make models eat baby foods when they are teenagers. Yes this is a fact. And its sick! Yet they want people to think its all " natural" that they are thin. Its far from...

reply to post by BardingTheBard


I don't think its a feel good law. I think its the start of further laws that will be introduced. Because its an attitude. If people ignore what's in front of their faces. Then the issues wont be solved. First just banning it altogether and allowing kids to have more rights. Is the beginning and start of a new future.

FreedomEntered
I think what makes France unique in this, is that " they" don't want to see kids dressed in such an entire and behaving like adults. Its not that they want to protect kids necessarily. I don't think.

Reading the articles in the OP might change your view on that.

You can walk down the street in France and see pre-teen girls wearing things that will still elicit shock in America even on grown women. Same for many European countries. But that's partly because the concept of the body just isn't as taboo there... and wearing something tight or revealing isn't automatically translated to "open for business".

The ban is most definitely trying to be about protecting the well being of the girls due to the pageant culture, mindset, expectations, parental pressure, etc.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Kids can wear what they wish to, its not about that. Or completely nude in a lot of cases!

Teens will follow fashion and begin trying to attract the opposite sex.

Again little can be done about either and both are fine and acceptable.

Its when you mix the above with competition that the problems can begin with society as a whole. Like girls or boys comparing themselves to others constantly based on irrelevant issues such as looks.
The competition of kids is too much even in school the comparisons made constantly. When kids have such unique and varying gifts. Its all over the top. And honestly I think its just bullyish parents/teachers/judges who make this acceptable.

Its not just girls its also boys this effects.

FreedomEntered
Its when you mix the above with competition that the problems can begin with society as a whole

Gymnasts go through physical and psychological hell, wear just as if not more revealing of clothing, spread their legs open on camera, have "perverts" watching them, do "seductive" movements during the musical sets, compete against each other, and little girls are doing it in competitions trying to eventually get to be like the "adults" in the Olympics or "Disney On Ice".

Is it time to ban gymnastics and cheerleading? Are there not likely to be even more "perverts" there due to the perceived socially acceptable nature of those events?

FreedomEntered
Its not just girls its also boys this effects.

I'm quite aware... as many of my posts have attempted to explore... as well as a few others much earlier in the discussion.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


No, that's gymnasts its not a shallow industry.

Shallow industries are modelling, parading and beauty competitions. Ones that sell basically using sex appeal, ie behaviour , mannerisms.

Gymnastics aren't selling anything. They are showing the physical technical abilities .

When girls/boys are exposed to examples of adult sexuality too young its technically sexual abuse imposed by the adult.

Meaning if they aren't ready to girate their hips like a stripper. Don't make them! Its a different thing than being flexible.

Pedophiles are not the issue in this case, they don't care what their victims are like. The job of the parent is simply to keep them away from such people. However, they are so sneaky that even that's difficult to do.

They aren't going to chase someone based on looks in other words.

Its our value system that France is making a statement on . BUT as they introduce more laws it will end up that the children have more rights. Hopefully! My point is it will have a boomerang effect.

Its already much better for kids this way.

FreedomEntered
No, that's gymnasts its not a shallow industry.
...
Gymnastics aren't selling anything. They are showing the physical technical abilities .

Huh.

But wait...

You are concerned about this:

FreedomEntered
It even goes so far to make models eat baby foods when they are teenagers. Yes this is a fact. And its sick! Yet they want people to think its all " natural" that they are thin. Its far from...

www.livestrong.com...
ezinearticles.com...
www.sportsinjurybulletin.com...
physioblogology.blogspot.com...

There is nothing natural, healthy, or deep about gymnastics. Their bodies and minds are put through brutal regimes and forever affect their personal and physical self.

And when they are too old to do it... what do they really have to show for it? Especially if they never made the Olympics?

What *good* comes from a girl pursuing Olympic dreams in gymnastics and being held to an adult mindset, work schedule, isolated from peers, etc... before they have had the chance to even understand the implications?

Why is a girl able to decide to do gymnastics before she is 18 (the age where she's most likely to have to retire)... but she can't decide to do pageants until she is 18? There is no reason to ban pageants *in general* (as opposed to just certain types of outfits) if gymnastics are still considered A-OK. They both depend on looks, behavior, training, physical conditioning, dieting, etc... just different types.

FreedomEntered
Its already much better for kids this way.

You've spoken to them?

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Yeah, I know enough about this topic from insiders.

Well one step at a time. Yes, the first step is protecting kids from sexual exploitation.

And the second is to establish more rights for them in all areas.
Instead of this business of " using " folk.

Nothing wrong with a clumbsy gymnast. I don't understand this desire humans have for " perfection" to see people do the seemingly impossible. Its fine to be less than perfect.
Its much more desireable to be just simply human.

The sports industry is a separate issue however.
But they should do more assesments for these kids as they go along. Maybe one day it will happen if enough people want it.

The entertainment industry is SICK.
Child abuse is rife.

reply to post by FreedomEntered

Well I guess we'll wait and see whether this is the start of a new era in child health and well being in France... or simply something that helps better conceal a world that would prefer to not be noticed.

Best to you and thanks for the discussion!