My New Roswell Debris Review

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


Do you even know how insulting you were in that post?

You're not talking to some star struck kid who just read a book and believed every word. While I do have the greatest respect for the guys, for the work they did, going out there and tracking down the witnesses. There is very little in the book that isn't already out there, if you want a source for that, try ATS, I've seen most of it here.

The information about Brazel and the bodies has been around for a long time. D o you know anything about Roswell, or did you just believe the official story and what people were forced to say?

Before you come back with any more insults, answer this. What part of the mogul is an egg shaped craft made of metal, about 12 to 15 feet long and about 6 feet high that needed an 18 wheeler truck to transport it back to the base? Source, Haut's affidavit.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


If it was a Mogul array (and there is plenty of evidence that it couldn't have been simply based on dates and available records for launches) and there was such similarity to normal balloon materials then what explanation do you give for Marcel viewing the debris, taking some of it back with him and the subsequent "we have a saucer" press release ?

A press release authorized by the commander of a pretty prominent base, a release that also stated that material was being forwarded to Fort Worth - material that on arrival was announced as a misidentified weather balloon (not Mogul array) according to Brigadier General Roger Ramey.

Hard to understand how a faux pas such as that would have gone unpunished yet all involved had further distinguished military careers.

If you go back to the earliest eye witness descriptions of the material found at the ranch there are some similarities to materials used in the Mogul arrays in terms of the wording used i.e. like tinfoil but not tinfoil. However some of the items described defy explanation in terms of any array or any known material of the time.

The recovery of a substantial "piece" of material as opposed to strewn debris does seem to require a second site.

reply to post by Krakatoa


If you're talking about this beam



It's reads ΕΛΕΦΘΕΡΙΑ (backwards) = Freedom in Greek

Which doesn't make sense

Hellas
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

If you're talking about this beam

It's reads ΕΛΕΦΘΕΡΙΑ (backwards) = Freedom in Greek

Which doesn't make sense

Please source that photo for me? Anyone could make up one of those based upon the description, and write whatever they want too. Knowing the source of this photo in your post will explain more IMO.

reply to post by Krakatoa


My bad. I just did a google images search to find that specific pic. But here's a video showing the beam plus additional stuff. Hope that helps

Hellas
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

My bad. I just did a google images search to find that specific pic. But here's a video showing the beam plus additional stuff. Hope that helps

I see, a YouTube video claiming it's authentic footage....and that is your source? Well, let me dig deeper into the source of the video and see how reputable it is before we accept it as fact or relevant. There has been a LOT of FUD in this event over the years, and lots of unsubstantiated claims. This is why I've tried to find first-hand sources to followup upon, so I hope you understand why I don't blindly accept a YouTube video as proof of anything at this point.

Hellas
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

My bad. I just did a google images search to find that specific pic. But here's a video showing the beam plus additional stuff. Hope that helps

OK, so this video has no source, no referenceable information, and is posted by "Disclosur3", which is another online alternative topic forum, that's it.. Personally, this looks to me like a snippet from the already debunked and confirmed hoax Alien Autopsy video from Ray Santilli (who has admitted he made the footage).

No offense, I would rather stick with first-hand information that is traceable as opposed to anything posted on YouTube that cannot be verified. Heck I could make one of these videos too, and posted it with wild claims......but it doesn't make it true.

reply to post by Krakatoa

It's reads ΕΛΕΦΘΕΡΙΑ (backwards) = Freedom in Greek Which doesn't make sense

Well it does if you know the story behind this.

The footage/picture is taken from Ray Santilli's Alien Autopsy video from the mid-1990s. Although Santilli hasn't quite admitted the whole affair was a huge money making scam he has conceded that he "re-constructed" the film allegedly acquired from a US military cameraman in Roswell 1947.

So the film is not genuine. It was created by a guy called Spyrios Melaris for Santilli.

A respected UFO investigator over here in Britain, Phil Mantle, got to the bottom of Santili's clever trickery and interviewed Melaris about it.

The Wreckage and I-beams.

These were all designed by Spyros himself. At the October 2007 UFO DATA conference Spyros showed me how he had designed the ‘writing’ on them and what it said. The wreckage was then manufactured by John Humphreys, Spyros and his brother Peter. He told me that he based it on Greek lettering, a bit of ancient Egyptian stylising and some artistic license. On the main large beam, if translated correctly it reads ‘FREEDOM’. Spyros thought this a fitting name for an alien spacecraft. While designing the letters which spell the word ‘FREEDOM’, Spyros noticed that if the word is turned upside down, the word ‘VIDEO’ could be seen. He adjusted some of the letters to better facilitate this, so the piece would throw a little red herring into the mix.

Source : Click here

Now this doesn't prove that Roswell didn't happen, just that the Santilli film is fake footage.

with roswell ... I believe

somehow we shot them down ...

they did not crash

and they are from the future ... most probably they are us from a future parallel time line ...

the reason for them being here is that they want us to "progress" through "a certain time line" ...

they want to control and influence our history so that we do not deviate away from a "future self" that they planned for us ...

so they sent out ufos to all the parallel time lines to change "us" through out history through out time and space ...

and the reason why they are not happy with our time line ???

because some where out there in the future ... we will cross path with them some how ... that is why ... t

reply to post by TheMultiSingularCat


And you can provide proof of this story? Real proof that can be independently verified and repeated by a 3rd (or more) party? Otherwise, it's a nice story invented by you, which is fine, but does not explain nor expose any of the details of the real event.

Thanks.

reply to post by LEL01

Do you even know how insulting you were in that post?

You're not talking to some star struck kid who just read a book and believed every word. While I do have the greatest respect for the guys, for the work they did, going out there and tracking down the witnesses. There is very little in the book that isn't already out there, if you want a source for that, try ATS, I've seen most of it here.

What part was insulting? Saying to take the word of so called 'experts' at face value is naive? Sorry, but that's just the truth. I guess "by anyone" wasn't general enough. When you have an extraordinary claim such as alien bodies being found, you can't simply accept it as gospel. Especially when there's never been physical evidence ever in any case, even 66 years after Roswell, to back it up. If you want to take his story solely on his word, how much further can you go with that? The obvious next step is Jesse Marcel since he followed Brazel back to the ranch. He would have been the first witness to it besides Brazel. You don't find it odd that Marcel never mentioned alien bodies in any interview he's ever done?

The information about Brazel and the bodies has been around for a long time. D o you know anything about Roswell, or did you just believe the official story and what people were forced to say?

You have people that believe one story, and people that believe another. I'm focusing on your belief of the initial Foster ranch crash site having more alien bodies, in addition to the "other" crash site. That would make around 6 alien bodies. And that belief based off a comment in a Roswell biased book. Which I'm guessing isn't followed with much personal investigation into that comment. Therein lies the problem.

Before you come back with any more insults, answer this. What part of the mogul is an egg shaped craft made of metal, about 12 to 15 feet long and about 6 feet high that needed an 18 wheeler truck to transport it back to the base? Source, Haut's affidavit.

Walter Haut wrote up and delivered the press release. He was not even directly involved with the Roswell site. He never went to the site, nor viewed anything. If you search, you'll see he gave numerous Roswell biased book interviews, including another affidavit, after Marcel came out with his story. He stated he never saw or handled any of the debris. Of course like with the other infamous Roswell "deathbed confessionals" that come out of the woodwork, it's a completely different story 55 years later. The "witness" is gone and not pressured for questioning or validation to back up his claims any longer.

What part of the "egg shaped craft" was made up of lightweight beams, foil-like material, with nothing any more than 4 feet in size? Just a coincidence that's it's the same size and make-up as weather balloon targets/cargo in the late 40's? Collectively, that would have to be a one in a billion chance. If even a chance at all.

-------------------------------

By the way, if you want to believe stories told, what about the other Roswell debris stories on the opposite end of your belief? I normally don't even bother pointing these out because I'm going off of the popular told story.
The Brazel interview that says along with the reported pieces, he found "eyelets and burnt rubber"?
His daughter Bessie who reportedly helped gather the debris described:

"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. ... Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber on the other. Both sides were grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The "flowers" were faint, a variety of pastel colors, and reminded me of Japanese paintings....

SOURCE

She also went on to mention in other interviews:

aluminum ring-shaped objects in the debris that looked like pipe intake collars or the necks of balloons... She estimated that they were about 4 inches around, and said she could put her hand through them. Charles Moore points out that Flight 4(Mogul) carried several 3-inch-diameter aluminum rings for assisting with the launching of the balloon train, as well as larger rings used to hold the sonobuoys. These were cut from cylindrical tubing stock, and then chamfered to prevent damage to the ropes.

Brazel's son also confirmed what his sister described.

Like I said, I don't normally make a point to include statements like these in my argument against this being some type of alien spacecraft. But, if you include it in your argument, you need to cover both sides.

Another interesting Roswell thread.

Well how about another off the wall theory... .

I recall, with the Roswell story, that the night prior to the "Discovery" there was a summer thunderstorm, with associated lightening etc, and someone (cant remember whom) heard large bang or bangs (not thunder tho).

Ok........What if the "Aliens" were doing a nuclear area recky, and blow me down, as they are flying thu the rain and dark clouds and lightening, they fly straight into this ruddy great big balloon thingy, that is trailing foil and balsa wood reflectors, and directly in their path.....
Their "Craft" gets tangled in the wires etc (they are flying at speed), and the impact shatters the balloon and tin foil stuff, and knocks their craft into a wobble, as the foil etc has interfered with their EM drive.
The Balloon and radar reflectors fall to the ground in pieces and spreads over a wide area, the "Visitors" desperately try to regain control of their craft, fly a few miles further, until they loose control completely and crash into a rise. One or two dies in the impact, the other removes them from the craft to try to revive them.
As the craft is damaged, they cannot report back to the Mothership (or whatever HQ) for rescue, and just stay with the craft, with a thought of hopelessness and fear that those damn humans dont find them....after a couple of days..the humans find them......drats!!

So, yes there was a balloon....yes there was an Alien wreckage.....
Case solved.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


You are being insulting, you're making assumptions about me that are wrong, you're using typical debunker tricks.

I use the words "I believe" because I know I can't prove Roswell was aliens, you should try using those words instead of insisting it was a mogul balloon, as if you know it was, because we all know you can't prove that. The military guys at Roswell would have been able to identify it, if it was a weather or mogul balloon, they were their balloons.

There's a big difference between what people say when they have witnessed an event and what they say after they and their families have been threatened. You might not believe that happened, but that is just your opinion, you can't prove it.

Brazel's son Bill said Bessie wasn't even there, the ranch house was miles away from the debris field. Bessie said she wasn't talking about the crash, she was talking about other times when she did help her father pick up balloons that had come down. I know you won't believe that because I got it from the book, and it doesn't fit in with your point of view, your belief.

I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, you can believe whatever you want. But calling me naive because I don't agree with what you think is saying more about you than it is about me. Don't expect me to waste any more of my time on you.

Link to Haut's Affidavit for anyone who hasn't seen it.
8 & 9. The meeting where they couldn't identify the metal.
10. The phone call dictating the press release.
12 & 13. Blanchard took Haut to view the wreckage and bodies.
Link

reply to post by LEL01

You are being insulting, you're making assumptions about me that are wrong, you're using typical debunker tricks.*

I use the words "I believe" because I know I can't prove Roswell was aliens, you should try using those words instead of insisting it was a mogul balloon, as if you know it was, because we all know you can't prove that. The military guys at Roswell would have been able to identify it, if it was a weather or mogul balloon, they were their balloons.

No idea what "debunker tricks" mean.

You say I'm making assumptions about you and you're only stating what you believe. As if you're taking a balanced approach to this case. But, then you go on to defend alien and alien spacecraft in every paragraph. That's what you have done in every one of your posts.

My stance is defending the much more likely scenario of a crashed balloon. There's no way that material left behind on the ranch from an "alien spacecraft" would have anything in common with an Earth-based balloon cargo/targets at that time in construction, size, and crash location. It's ridiculous to skip right passed it, but believers do just that. Can you, or anyone sit there and honestly say that's only a coincidence? Are people so swayed by so-called Roswell experts that you can't put simple common sense and logic in effect and deduce for your own that something is wrong with the amazing similarities?

Again, Mogul was not like the typical weather balloons that crashed in the area at that time. It wasn't a weather balloon, but a classified program to listen for Soviet nuclear testing. It had the same basic characteristic as the time-tested weather balloons, but was designed to travel at higher altitudes and be sustained at those heights. Also, they were a New York University designed project which initially was tested in Penn. in 1947 before being sent to New Mexico in June/July for launching. It was larger and served a completely different purpose. Even the physics professor, who was a graduate student at the time, who was working on the project, knew nothing of the purpose. They were told they were testing constant level weather balloons.

Brazel's son Bill said Bessie wasn't even there, the ranch house was miles away from the debris field. Bessie said she wasn't talking about the crash, she was talking about other times when she did help her father pick up balloons that had come down. I know you won't believe that because I got it from the book, and it doesn't fit in with your point of view, your belief.

If you look at the source link below her comment I quoted, you'll see it was a signed affidavit about Roswell. If you use Hauts affidavit to back up your own belief, where does Bessie Brazel's comment, that Roswell was a balloon, fit into that same method of thinking?

I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, you can believe whatever you want. But calling me naive because I don't agree with what you think is saying more about you than it is about me. Don't expect me to waste any more of my time on you.

I'm not calling you naive because you don't agree with me. I'm calling anyone naive that takes a story from a Roswell book and makes it believable with nothing to back it up. No follow up investigation to corroborate what he said. If this is one method you use of accepting possibilities to this case, in the very least follow up to the next step of Jesse Marcel. However, Jesse Marcel is a dead end. So instead of admitting that's odd, you just write it off to "I don't know why he didn't say anything"? That's not a reason, it's a cop-out response.

reply to post by gort51


It is a possible scenario but I guess you could question the durability of any craft that could be brought down by a tinfoil and balsa wood balloon structure.

Hypothetically why not go one further, after all Arnolds sighting plus many other contemporary sightings mentioned multiple craft, flying line astern and maneuvering as if following the lead craft. Obviously pure conjecture but lets assume this following a lead craft is an automatic lock on feature - a kind of autopilot, and that the coming together of the lead craft with whatever balloon was involved resulted in some kind of evasive action or malfunction that caused a mid-air collision resulting in one or more of these craft to impact the ground.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


You're right to make the point about those statements however you need to take into account when they were made and what could have occurred in the meantime. And yes, that applies to all statements whichever side of the fence they fall on.

One thing that bothers me about them is that they pretty accurately describe materials used in weather balloons (especially the Mogul arrays), which is at odds with both some of what was described at the time and with material being collected, returned to Roswell and flown to Fort Worth.

You have to wonder at what point did balsa wood, metal eyelets, rubber backed tinfoil and sticky tape seem unusual enough to warrant either this treatment or the press release.

If it wasn't for all of the other tiny bits of (admittedly mostly impossible to verify) info it would be easier to believe that it was simply a case of mistaken identity, a rushed / messed up press release and subsequent exaggeration / straight forward lies by some involved. But some of the other info that's surfaced that corroborates a different story has also to be taken into account - such as the military's own inability to provide a definitive answer as to what was recovered.

reply to post by chunder


True, but if you believe people like William Cooper and "KGB UFO Files" crash UFO have been recovered for decades.
Are they so infallible?

Just look at Humans today, we have the most sophisticated motor vehicles in our history...ABS brakes, air bags, traction control....yet people still crash them and die..so????

Modern Passenger planes are the best they are, yet they still have near misses, fall out the sky (that recent video of that 747 freighter stalling and falling like a stone), and can be taken down by a bird in the engine...

Experienced military pilots and test pilots, still crash new planes on test flights and Air shows.

With all the warnings etc, people still walk in front of trains at rail crossings.

Humans, with all our knowledge and "Brains", still make fatal mistakes every single second of the day.

Are the Aliens really any different? They are just Human after all....sort of. .

reply to post by chunder

You're right to make the point about those statements however you need to take into account when they were made and what could have occurred in the meantime. And yes, that applies to all statements whichever side of the fence they fall on.

One thing that bothers me about them is that they pretty accurately describe materials used in weather balloons (especially the Mogul arrays), which is at odds with both some of what was described at the time and with material being collected, returned to Roswell and flown to Fort Worth.

You have to wonder at what point did balsa wood, metal eyelets, rubber backed tinfoil and sticky tape seem unusual enough to warrant either this treatment or the press release.

If it wasn't for all of the other tiny bits of (admittedly mostly impossible to verify) info it would be easier to believe that it was simply a case of mistaken identity, a rushed / messed up press release and subsequent exaggeration / straight forward lies by some involved. But some of the other info that's surfaced that corroborates a different story has also to be taken into account - such as the military's own inability to provide a definitive answer as to what was recovered.

------------------------

As I said, the size of the debris field was much larger than the weather balloon crashes the happened in the area, because Mogul, and the like, used more RAWIN type of targets. The size of the area of debris is something Marcel mentions in every interview. So, that alone for him was unusual and worth mentioning. Mogul was a NYU created program specifically made for different type of projects than normal weather balloon used in New Mexico. Using the same time-tested weather balloons to achieve heights required to record possible nuclear testing, seems logical. Add to that, Mogul was built in another part of the country possibly using slightly different or stronger materials because of the sustained heights required of the program. It would leave behind more debris and would be different strength-wise than the typical weather balloon crashes, yet at the same time be constructed exactly the same. Which is exactly what was found. That seems to be a logical conclusion.

As for the military press release. You have to remember that the mindset in 1947 was completely different than that of today. The phrase "flying saucer(or disc)" had only been coined a couple of months earlier by Kenneth Arnold. It was fresh and known throughout the country. Being recent and in the papers, it could have been an easy and convenient go-to detraction from the top secret nature of Mogul. Or, a rushed story because of the seemingly unrelatable size and weather balloon materials typically found. Flying saucer has only one meaning for many today, alien spacecraft. At the time, it didn't have the same weight or impact as it would if the military came out today and made the same statement. So that's something you need to keep in mind as well.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


Aside from some specific components (easily identifiable as to material used if not purpose) and amount of material as you say method of construction of a Mogul array was identical to a weather balloon.

Apologies for lack of referencing but from memory the earliest descriptions of debris field size / amount of material don't appear to match with that of a Mogul array, indicating a larger than expected spread and mass of material.

The material itself also appears to have been broken up quite badly into small pieces, maybe stormy weather and getting caught in trees / on rocks etc could account for that but then if the material was so light wouldn't it have been spread much more thinly across an even greater area ?

Also from memory I believe quite deep gouges in the ground were described and again I'm not sure that can be reconciled with the mass involved in a Mogul array ?

Then at the least there are the I-beams - and most accounts are quite definitive about the fact they were I or H shaped in cross section. I recall seeing construction detail of a Mogul array and that there were no I or H beams present. Of course this doesn't mean it wasn't a man made object but if attempting to positively identify a Mogul array from the earliest descriptions of what was found it should be possible to get some accurate cross references between description and construction.

Apologies as the onus should at the least be shared and I am asking you to provide the info, if I get the time at the weekend I will reference above, otherwise if you have anything to refute the points above please do post, it may be going over old ground but it is hallowed ground !

reply to post by gort51


I guess we just don't know what we don't know so all is speculation and it would be fair to extrapolate failure in human engineering / actions to non-terrestrial machinery and failure / accident rates.

What is known is that fairly powerful radar sets were in use in the general area and that there was an electrical storm - maybe this also contributed (surely some part of any navigation or propulsion system would be electrical in nature).