My New Roswell Debris Review

LEL01
There's no way I would be able to keep a secret like that and I think it's time they told the truth about it, but we know they won't.

Well, that's a very good reason to suspect that there really weren't any kind of aliens or anything like that crashed at Roswell. Do you really think something that monumental and important could be kept truly secret all this time, with only a few fuzzy recollections or second- and third-hand anecdotes floating around? That not one piece of definitive corroborating evidence would ever surface?

Could all those people be lying? Maybe not. But could some of them be lying, and others of them mistaken, or not remembering correctly, or have been misinformed by others, or just confused? When you take into account the total lack of solid evidence backing up any of these stories, then yeah. I could see that happening.

reply to post by Blue Shift

Well, that's a very good reason to suspect that there really weren't any kind of aliens or anything like that crashed at Roswell.

Then why bother to fabricate a 2nd (phony) press conference with the base commander and the "debris"?

After al its a joke or drunken dare in a bar late at night, right?

intrptr
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

Well, that's a very good reason to suspect that there really weren't any kind of aliens or anything like that crashed at Roswell.

Then why bother to fabricate a 2nd (phony) press conference with the base commander and the "debris"?
After al its a joke or drunken dare in a bar late at night, right?

Have you ever been in the military? This kind of miscommunication SNAFU happens all the time. They're a little better at keeping it under wraps these days, perhaps. But at the time, with the military in disarray post-WWII, I don't have any problem believing that it was one foul-up after another with scuttlebutt gone out of control that culminated in a huge ridiculous hairball.

reply to post by Blue Shift


They didn't keep it secret to start with, they announced it to the press. There was hundreds of first and second hand witnesses, not just a few fuzzy recollections.

Ramey, Dubose, Blanchard, Marcel, Cavitt, Haut and a few others in a meeting on July 8, passed around the debris and not one of them could identify the metal. The scientists who tested it were puzzled by it, it was unknown to them.

There is so much more to this, things that can't just be swept under the carpet. You will never see the proof you want, you don't have that "Need to Know" in their opinion. I think we all have the need and the right to know.

intrptr
reply to post by chunder

 

But then this is the conundrum - if the secretest base would know what a press release would do how can such a mistake be made ?

Because it wasn't a mistake. He was forced to have another (fake) one and that was the coverup.

The not being a mistake would be the something missing I referred to.

Agree with the rest of your post.

Apologies to the OP as slightly off topic as not strictly about the debris.

reply to post by LEL01

Well said.

About letting us know? I think they have to keep it secret. If they didn't it might upset the Paradigm applecart. Many religious people steadfastly hold that all manifestations of anything spiritual (or extraterrestrial) are of the devil. So many people today have begun to open up to wider possibilities but a stubborn sect of society would freak out if they became aware suddenly.

This is a holdover from the flat world society of the middle ages where the only life is here on earth, "God" made it and believe or burn in hell sort of thing.

I kind of tend to believe that the real visitors want it that way for now too. Other wise they would have mass landed already and begun educating us. But they haven't. So our government and they are actually complicit in this conspiracy of silence on a wide scale.

However, small unconfirmed sightings and contacts go on all around us apparently at the fringe of our awareness in the press and on the internet. Along with a tremendous amount of disinformation.

I am alright with that. I am secure in my knowledge they exist-- I have seen one with my own eyes.

Blue Shift

intrptr
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

Well, that's a very good reason to suspect that there really weren't any kind of aliens or anything like that crashed at Roswell.

Then why bother to fabricate a 2nd (phony) press conference with the base commander and the "debris"?
After al its a joke or drunken dare in a bar late at night, right?

Have you ever been in the military? This kind of miscommunication SNAFU happens all the time. They're a little better at keeping it under wraps these days, perhaps. But at the time, with the military in disarray post-WWII, I don't have any problem believing that it was one foul-up after another with scuttlebutt gone out of control that culminated in a huge ridiculous hairball.

This same sentiment leads to something I've been considering as an explanation for the press release then retraction, etc...

Hypothesis
Earlier in the spring of 1947 Kenneth Arnold reported seeing flying craft over Mt. Ranier that fly like "saucers skipping along the water". Now, the press changed that to "flying saucers", and set the shape in the minds of the readers wholly different from Kenneth Arnold's report of a boomerang with convex tail. Well, after that event went mainstream, it was reported (and I am still trying to verify this with evidence in print of the time) that there was some sort of reward for the recovery or parts of one of these flying disks. The word of this got to Mac Brazel out there on the Foster range, via his friends, when he described finding the wreckage of something on the ranch. His main concern was getting someone out there to clean it up off the ranch because it was strewn and blowing all over the place. Well, his friends suggested that perhaps this was wreckage form one of those flying disks.....so perhaps he should take some to town and try to get the reward. Brazel did bring some onto the local sheriff in Roswell, who contacted the RAAF at the base there saying he had pieces of a flying disk in his office.

So, imagine that the word was given to the military that one of the flying disks had crashed and they needed to mount an investigation. A press release was drafted by Gen. Ramey to that end, since it was a topic of concern for the military after the Arnold report earlier that spring. At this point, the claim it was a flying disk originated with Mac Brazel. This would typically be a classic SNAFU that the military spoke too soon, misreported since it had not yet investigated the wreckage and had it inspected and classified as something terrestrial or not (a big lesson learned after that were the military say NOTHING when sent on one of the recovery missions, hence the clamp down going forward).

Could it be as simple as a SNAFU and miscommunication at the very start of a breaking story? After all, (begin sarcasm) that doesn't happen anymore, right? I mean, as news breaks, we don't have 50 different versions of a story at the outset (end sarcasm). It's only as time goes by we find none of them were 100% correct, yet 2% of each of the 50 had correct information.

Thoughts??

reply to post by Krakatoa



Roswell casts its shadow across UFOlogy like a huge alien mothership above the Earth. With most of us left in it's dark shadow and unable to see clearly.

Did an alien craft really come down in July 1947? Were alien beings on board? Did they come here because of the nuclear blasts that ended World War II. Was Eisenhower involved in a meeting with aliens? Did America sign a secret treaty to allow abductions of people in the aftermath and did a group like MJ-12 exist to seek a solution to the alien threat?

Or did all these fantastic stories result from a rancher wanting to claim a reward for finding a flying disc and an over excited press officer releasing a statement to the media?

The popular theory about aliens coming here because of the nuclear bombs in 1945 means that they were either already operating close by, or in, the solar system at the time. Or that their detection technology transcends our current knowledge of the physics of space/time. It would take 4 light years for any trace of a nuclear detonation to reach the nearest star system (if it could be detected at all) so anything alien had to already have been a lot closer to earth or they possessed technology way beyond our understanding to pick up signals at faster than light speed.

The physical evidence talked about from the Brazel ranch suggests to me that it was actually something quite fragile that Marcel picked up. Although there is talk of "memory metal" the thing still fell apart across a large area and the highest technology parts found appear to be I-beams with writing on and bits of plastic that wouldn't burn.

But then you have the rather bold announcements and retraction from the USAAF, the missing documents from Roswell in 1947, other stories of a 2nd or even 3rd crash site, the later statements in the 1990s from the USAF which are still unsatisfactory and the deathbed confessions, alongside the testimony of many others to make you think there has to something more to this story. And here we are 66 years on still discussing it

If we assume that an alien crash did happen at Roswell, it's hard to imagine at least some watershed change in our technology taking place in the short term not happening. Was it the recognition that titanium use as a structural metal in our most advanced aircraft would take their performance to the next level and beyond? The key points WHO made the decision to jump start the commercial titanium industry in DECEMBER 1948 and specifically WHEN and WHY they did it are missing! Titanium development was a true game changer in the history of aeronautics. Its' impact can not be understated yet these important questions about the early days of its' development remain improperly answered.

reply to post by Krakatoa


According to Haut's affidavit, Blanchard dictated the press release to Haut over the phone, after the meeting where they passed around the pieces of debris. They couldn't identify the debris and they already knew about the bodies. They didn't put out the press release based on gossip and hearsay, they had to divert attention away from the sites with the bodies.

Brazel might have been after the reward money, but from his conversation with the radio presenter he seemed more concerned with who was going to clear up all the debris. He talked about the stench from the dead little bodies. If it had just been a balloon, he would have just picked it up himself like he always did.


Mirageman.
Remember Foo fighters, maybe they never left.

LEL01
reply to post by Krakatoa

 

Brazel might have been after the reward money, but from his conversation with the radio presenter he seemed more concerned with who was going to clear up all the debris. He talked about the stench from the dead little bodies. If it had just been a balloon, he would have just picked it up himself like he always did.

Where's your source quoting Brazel talking about "stench from dead little bodies"? Only thing he described was the debris he found on the ranch, nothing about dead bodies.

The debris field was larger than the typical weather balloon field. That's because Mogul had more radar targets attached.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


Sorry, I can't link you to that information, I haven't seen it online. It's from the book I linked at Amazon in my first post on page one of this thread. You can't see this at that link.
It was Frank Joyce, the radio presenter who gave the information, this is what he claims was said.

MB. Who's gonna clean all that stuff up? That's what I wanna know, I need someone out there to clean it up.
FJ. What stuff? What are you talking about?
MB. Don't know. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's one of those flying saucer things.
FJ. Oh, really? Then you should call the air base. They are responsible for everything that flies in the air. They should be able to help you or tell you what it is.
MB. Oh God. Oh my God. What am I gonna do? it's horrible. Horrible. Just horrible.
FJ. What's that? What's horrible? What are you talking about?
MB. The stench. Just awful.
FJ. Stench? From what? What are you talking about?
MB. They're dead.
FJ. What? Who's dead?
MB. Little people. Unfortunate little creatures.
FJ. What the....? Where? Where did you find them?
MB. Someplace else.
FJ. Well, you know, the military are always firing rockets and experimenting with monkeys and things. So, maybe...
MB. God dammit! They're not monkeys, and THEY'RE NOT HUMAN!!
Brazel slammed the phone down in anger.

" dead little bodies." They were my words, I wasn't quoting anyone, I was just saying it my way. This is what the radio presenter said Brazel had told him before the military got involved. I hope that helps.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


LEL01 source is not in doubt. He is referring to the book "Witness to Roswell" by Tom Carey and Don Schmidt. It refers to a 1998 interview with Frank Joyce.

The following is our reconstruction of Frank Joyce’s account of his initial conversation with Mack Brazel on the afternoon of July 6, 1947, shortly after Brazel had arrived in Roswell to report his discovery, as revealed to us for the first time by Frank Joyce.

Specifically this page below. If you click on it you can see an enlarged copy.



There is a Google books preview available by clicking here as well.

reply to post by LEL01

That whole exchange reads like a bad B sci-fi movie from the 50's. A Roswell biased book isn't a good source of reliable evidence.

So the claim of separate crash site miles away found by Grady Barnett where the "actual bodies" were found, is wrong? It was Mac Brazel who really found the debris and bodies together on the Foster ranch? Dead bodies as opposed to two dead bodies with one(or two depending on what story you want to believe) "alien(s)" still alive and walking around? That's the popular part II of this Roswell myth, isn't it?

Where is Jesse Marcel's statement about dead alien bodies? He was the first to follow Brazel directly back to the ranch to look at the debris. He surely would have mentioned alien bodies to Stanton Friedman in his televised interview, or in subsequent interviews he did.

It just shows the inconsistencies and lack of traceable facts throughout this entire story. You have several versions of the same event. Of course people that believe, will attribute it to the military/government disinformation campaign.

reply to post by mirageman


Thanks for posting the link, I didn't know about the preview. It's good to have proof that I didn't just make it up or exaggerate it.

It's not important but maybe I should tell you, I'm not a he, It's hard to tell when you can't see the person you're talking to.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


Are you going to dismiss all of the witnesses just because they're in that book? That's what the book is about, what the witnesses have said, they are the people who were there. Ignoring the witnesses would explain why you seem to have got confused by the phone conversation.

That phone conversation took place on Sunday 6th July, the site with three bodies and a live alien was found on Monday 7th July. They were different sites, they weren't even in the same county, Brazel didn't know about the other site that you were talking about, nobody knew about it before Monday.

I don't know what the popular story is, I just do my own thing. I can only guess about why Marcel didn't talk about the aliens, I can't speak for him. Saying it was mogul is the same as saying that the military guys couldn't identify their own balloons and radar kites/targets.

I know you don't believe, that's not a problem for me but I don't understand why you can't accept that some of us do believe. Calling Roswell a myth won't work.

reply to post by LEL01


Sorry I never gave it a 2nd thought whether you were male or female, I'll remember in future



Yes Google Books is linked from the main page and as long as you know the title of the book and search for a phrase it will often find it a relevant page for you. Plus it also allows you to browse a few pages. There are also some huge archives of magazines in full on there. Popular Science goes back to the 19th century! So it is very useful and backs up your source in this case on Roswell.

I do remember in the Roswell movie at the end of an interview , Brazel blurts out...

"You know how they talk about little green men? Well they ain't green"...

www.youtube.com...

I am not sure if he really did say that without checking it out. And I haven't done so.

I do believe something out of the ordinary happened back in 1947 in New Mexico but the story has become so polluted down the years. So my sceptical side is still waiting to be convinced that it was aliens.

There sure is a lot of the Roswell argument that rests on the admittedly interesting but completely unsubstantiated stories of Mac Brazel and Jesse Marcel. We can argue all day long about metal too tough to dent with a hammer but if you crumple it up it flattens back out, and how that could never be the Mogul metal or some other metal used in rockets over at White Sands.

Let's see a piece of the mystery metal and compare the two. Oh, that's right. There isn't any. There's no metal and no bodies and no I-beams with markings on them. There are only stories. Yeah, Roswell certainly has the most interesting stories, some of which even managed to make the news at the time. But when it comes to any kind of physical evidence to back up those stories, it's essentially useless.

reply to post by LEL01

LEL01
reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

Are you going to dismiss all of the witnesses just because they're in that book? That's what the book is about, what the witnesses have said, they are the people who were there. Ignoring the witnesses would explain why you seem to have got confused by the phone conversation.

That phone conversation took place on Sunday 6th July, the site with three bodies and a live alien was found on Monday 7th July. They were different sites, they weren't even in the same county, Brazel didn't know about the other site that you were talking about, nobody knew about it before Monday.

So if he didn't know about the other site, what was his phone call claiming "The stench.... The little people" about? That statement alone says he saw bodies. So there were at least 2 more bodies found in addition to the other crash site of 4? If he saw bodies and Jesse Marcel was the first to follow him back to the ranch, why didn't he show Marcel the dead bodies? That would be far more interesting and telling than pieces of beams and foil. There's not even corroboration by Marcel with this version. Do you just believe it was true because it was written in a book by a supposed expert in this case? That's a rather naive approach by anyone.

I don't know what the popular story is, I just do my own thing. I can only guess about why Marcel didn't talk about the aliens, I can't speak for him.

So in other words, you just take what you deem to be an expert solely on his word? Anything goes type of methodology?

Saying it was mogul is the same as saying that the military guys couldn't identify their own balloons and radar kites/targets.

It was not the same as the typical weather balloons found crashed on the ranches in the late 40's. It had more radar targets attached - Hence Marcels comment the debris field was "so large, so much of it". That's something he routinely focused on in interviews. That's because Mogul was huge in comparison with 3 RAWIN targets, rather than the normal 1. It wasn't a target used for measuring wind speed etc. which people were familiar with. It was to listen for Soviet nuclear weapons testing. So it wasn't the normal type of balloon found crashed.

I know you don't believe, that's not a problem for me but I don't understand why you can't accept that some of us do believe. Calling Roswell a myth won't work.

I'm baffled by seemingly intelligent people that overlook the incredible simiarties to balloon cargo. It goes against simple common sense. People want to believe so badly in alien life visiting Earth, that they will forgo and toss this out. If an aircraft from 2013 crashed in 1947 in Roswell, the material found would not be relatable to anything up until that time. And that's only 66 years of human progress.

reply to post by mirageman


Yes, on 9th July the military escorted Brazel to the news offices and radio stations to retract his story. When he was leaving, Joyce asked what about the little green men? Brazel replied, they're not green. The last line in the article, "Harassed Rancher Who Located "Saucer" Sorry He Told." in the Roswell Daily Record, 9/7/47. Quoted him saying "I am sure what I found wasn't any type of weather observation balloon." There was more to that quote but I couldn't see all of the words.

I changed the date, so if you look for it you might need to change it back to 7/9/47.

I'm not sure if I'll be coming back to this thread after I make just one last post, I'm sure I will see you around though.