Are we vulnerable to an invasion?

Interesting thought SIRR1. I never really thought about that before, however I would hardly say it's untapped.

Isn't the cargo base being built in the Bahamas right now by China, the largest in the world? Could it be retrofitted without our knowledge as an army base?

This is an interesting question. Having thought about it, I would venture to say that no forces movement from mainland China is required, since, the US may already be surrounded.

Consider that through patience and decades of quiet plotting, China knowing how it would be difficult if not impossible to deploy large forces against the US, puts them in place much ahead of time in the form of immigration. Most Chinese are not wealty, but in Canada the Chinese population has grown exponentially in the last 10 years, and they come with huge amounts of cash. South America also has a very significant Chinese population. All that is required then is the incident to decrease US military power without establishing who is responsible for the assault and launch the invasion.

Now I am not into weaponry or warfare, but I do know that nuclear warheads can be launched from submarines from well out in international waters, and I am fairly certain that nuclear bombs explode in the air, and that teh Xhinese have developed electro-magnetic missiles, but I take some liberties here in assuming precision targeting ability. So the best I can do to come up with such an incident is to wait until the US fleet sails to undertake a war exercise, as they gather within an area, launch from a submarine or submarines, a burst of missiles necessary to destroy, bring down their systems, also fire a few onto the mainland and the US is in total disarray. The land forces from the north and south mobilize and move in.

Now if I can think about a scenario like this as simplistic as it is, I am sure strategic war thinkers could do much to make it more viable. And as much as posters like to claim they know what is in the Chinese arsenal, they actually don't. Most of it is guesswork.

SomewhereinBetween - This is exactly the point that led to my starting the thread - It's scary isn't it?

Originally posted by Damned

I don't think you're in touch with reality. No country is safe from invasion. First of all, you're assuming that the reason behind the invasion would be to take over the US. This isn't necessarily so.

True, but whoever launches an invasion would at the very least have to think that they would gain significantly from the action, and would have very strong prospect for success. I can't see any scenario right now or in the short-term (decadal) timescale where that would be true.

Second, you're assuming that nukes or E bombs wouldn't be used to disable our communications and electronic equipment. One our technology is crippled, so is the entire country. America is not invincible, by no means. We rely on our technology to keep us safe. Everyone knows technology is never fool proof, and even less invincible. In the case of an actual invasion, you'd probably first notice that many electronic things just stopped working. Phones would be dead, power plants might cease suddenly, etc. Anyone with half a brain would know that you don't just invade the US without crippling our communications. Once communications are down, for the most part, we're pretty much wide open. Who's going to give the command to launch nukes if they can't even communicate with the silos? How are fighter jets going to fly when their electronics stop working? Don't fool yourself.

Our invader would have to be very, very confident of completely shutting down our communications, or they'd face massive retaiation. For that matter, could they be absolutely confident they wouldn't face such retaliation anyway? Could they really be confident that one or more boomer subs, faced with a total loss of command communication for an extended period and possibly getting a more or less complete picture of what had happened and who did it wouldn't launch independently?

It seems to me like a very dicey proposition to gamble the continued existence of one's nation on such assumptions.

Read about E bombs....

www.popularmechanics.com...

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Damned]

Quite familiar with the concept already, thanks.

Originally posted by Huria86
All out invasion? Not possible. Take over of one or two large towns is possible though. But it would be a matter of hours untill most of our planes were coming back to attack.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not out invasion ;; inside;;; capito

Originally posted by x_y_no
Our invader would have to be very, very confident of completely shutting down our communications, or they'd face massive retaiation. For that matter, could they be absolutely confident they wouldn't face such retaliation anyway? Could they really be confident that one or more boomer subs, faced with a total loss of command communication for an extended period and possibly getting a more or less complete picture of what had happened and who did it wouldn't launch independently?

Actually, just partially shutting down communications would cripple us greatly. We rely so heavily on our technology, we're completely vulnerable without it. I know exactly how I'd destroy the US. I'd launch surface to surface E bombs until I was quite sure the country was at least 50% disabled. Imagine if someone launched a bunch of these into space, and they all came down at once, all over the US. Two per major city would probably be more than enough to put America into pure chaos. Many who had been hit by these would have no idea that we were even at war, since no one could tell them. Secondly, they wouldn't be able to tell the rest of the country what had happened to them. Then, imagine even worse...they could be nukes. Nope, America is definitely not invincible....far from it, IMO.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Damned]

Originally posted by Damned

I don't think you're in touch with reality. No country is safe from invasion. First of all, you're assuming that the reason behind the invasion would be to take over the US. This isn't necessarily so. Second, you're assuming that nukes or E bombs wouldn't be used to disable our communications and electronic equipment. One our technology is crippled, so is the entire country. America is not invincible, by no means. We rely on our technology to keep us safe. Everyone knows technology is never fool proof, and even less invincible. In the case of an actual invasion, you'd probably first notice that many electronic things just stopped working. Phones would be dead, power plants might cease suddenly, etc. Anyone with half a brain would know that you don't just invade the US without crippling our communications. Once communications are down, for the most part, we're pretty much wide open. Who's going to give the command to launch nukes if they can't even communicate with the silos? How are fighter jets going to fly when their electronics stop working? Don't fool yourself.

Read about E bombs....

www.popularmechanics.com...

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Damned]

First of all, there is almost zero chance that nukes would be involved if China was to attempt an invasion. Why? Because of mutually assured destruction. If they used nuclear weapons on us, they would be utterly destroyed by our retaliation. Not much point of invading the US if it, and your homeland are radioactive wastelands. Oh, and ebombs? Thats what your worried about? The majority of our vital military equipment is electromagnetically shielded or located in a places where they would be safe. If you think the military hasnt taken precautions in regards to this threat, you are sorely mistaken.
The question in this thread is whether we are at risk of being invaded, not whether we are at risk for an attack. Sure, theoretically, we could be "invaded". Any country with 5 soldiers and a boat could technically "invade" us. However, a successful, largescale invasion of the US would be utterly futile.

With any kind of espionage, and it's known that the Chinese have done their share of spying, the key components of all the major power grids are more than likely known. Add to this the ability to understand, and technologically dissect this information, and it adds up to be pretty bad for the US. A couple years ago, remember china captured one of our war planes, and wouldn't release it - they are aware of our technology. I believe that if the US keeps annoying China with the Taiwan situation, we could be in for some serious implications.

Originally posted by Justmytype
enomus

All American pride put to the side. You said; Are we vunerable?? Hell yeah, go do the math. North Korea alone out mans us and "China" hate to say this but actually is more technologically advanced then we are. Stop being ignorant and letting your pride stand in your way. We are not invincible and with our troops all 480,000 of them scattered, we are very much vunerable.

no, we arent vunerable, our navy would start attacking way before the enemy got near the US, and then ships who got by would be attacked by air force jets miles from the coast, china does not have the amphibious capabilities needed to launch such an invasion, they are not more advanced than we are either, whered that come from? china knows this, their whole strategy is based on attrition and unconventional warfare because of that, overestimation is just as foolish as underestimation, this is not pride, with air superiority any sized invasion force can be decimated and anyways, every state has a national guard you know and most military bases are in the us, there is about 200,000 forces here, and japan, taiwan and south korea would cause major damage to chinese ports, it would be very hard to get a sizeable force to here.

Originally posted by apw100
First of all, there is almost zero chance that nukes would be involved if China was to attempt an invasion. Why? Because of mutually assured destruction. If they used nuclear weapons on us, they would be utterly destroyed by our retaliation. Not much point of invading the US if it, and your homeland are radioactive wastelands.

The best way to insure destruction would be to launch them into space and send them to the US, all at once. I doubt we'd even know what hit us. Not much chance for retaliation there. And again, you're assuming that our invaders would want this land. Chances are, they'd only want to destroy us because they're angry about us taking over the entire earth. In such a case, I don't think they'd be worried about the condition of our land.

Oh, and ebombs? Thats what your worried about? The majority of our vital military equipment is electromagnetically shielded or located in a places where they would be safe.

You didn't read that article, did you? Certain E bombs can even penetrate Faraday cages. There's no escape from it. The pulse is emitted at high frequencies that defeat protective devices like Faraday Cages. You're living in a dream world, apparently.

The question in this thread is whether we are at risk of being invaded, not whether we are at risk for an attack. Sure, theoretically, we could be "invaded". Any country with 5 soldiers and a boat could technically "invade" us. However, a successful, largescale invasion of the US would be utterly futile.

All invasions begin with attacks. Are you that naive? We didn't go into Iraq without bombing the living crap out of them first. No one in their right mind is just going to send troops to the coast and watch them get shot. Have you no understanding of war strategies?

Originally posted by Damned

Actually, just partially shutting down communications would cripple us greatly. We rely so heavily on our technology, we're completely vulnerable without it. I know exactly how I'd destroy the US. I'd launch surface to surface E bombs until I was quite sure the country was at least 50% disabled. Imagine if someone launched a bunch of these into space, and they all came down at once, all over the US. Two per major city would probably be more than enough to put America into pure chaos. Many who had been hit by these would have no idea that we were even at war, since no one could tell them. Secondly, they wouldn't be able to tell the rest of the country what had happened to them. Then, imagine even worse...they could be nukes. Nope, America is definitely not invincible....far from it, IMO.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Damned]

I never said we're invincible - but your answer ignores the point I made that the attacker you speculate about would have to be very confident indeed that their disabling of our communications would work to perfection, and even so they could not rely on being safe from retaiation launched independently by boomer subs days, weeks, or even months later.

I really don't find the idea that anyone could have that level of confidence in the efficacy af an attack credible in the least.

Originally posted by superdude
With any kind of espionage, and it's known that the Chinese have done their share of spying, the key components of all the major power grids are more than likely known. Add to this the ability to understand, and technologically dissect this information, and it adds up to be pretty bad for the US. A couple years ago, remember china captured one of our war planes, and wouldn't release it - they are aware of our technology. I believe that if the US keeps annoying China with the Taiwan situation, we could be in for some serious implications.

there would be a 'shadow government' put in place should something like you're suggesting happen. i'll be the very first to criticize my government on a number for different fronts, but making sure they stay in power is not one of them. there are numerous underground facilities, known and unknown, where the government can safely destroy any country that tried to invade us. i mean come on, you think norad gets their electricity from con edison, and all you have to do it wack out the closest power station and we're crippled?

[edit on 12-11-2004 by enomus]

I never said we're invincible - but your answer ignores the point I made that the attacker you speculate about would have to be very confident indeed that their disabling of our communications would work to perfection, and even so they could not rely on being safe from retaiation launched independently by boomer subs days, weeks, or even months later.

Even if the attacker did achieve perfection in disabling our communications, there would be retaliation launched from the boomers at some point anyway. You have to understand that their Navy would be hunting our Boomers down aggressively while they were unable to communicate.
They realize this and know that during this lag period, their troops could be deployed on our soil. As posted earlier, The possibility of our being surrounded is a very real possibility.

Originally posted by x_y_no
I never said we're invincible - but your answer ignores the point I made that the attacker you speculate about would have to be very confident indeed that their disabling of our communications would work to perfection, and even so they could not rely on being safe from retaiation launched independently by boomer subs days, weeks, or even months later.

I really don't find the idea that anyone could have that level of confidence in the efficacy af an attack credible in the least.

No one asked if we were vulnerable to a successful invasion. Who says you have to win to invade? And, again, if they have that kind of technology, why would they even invade until they've launched every E bomb they have? I don't think you're being realistic at all. You've watched way too much television. A successful invasion would require that our enemies are smarter than we are. That's, by no means, a stretch of the imagination, for me. We're so arrogant, most people do think the US is practically invulnerable.

Originally posted by Damned
No one asked if we were vulnerable to a successful invasion. Who says you have to win to invade? And, again, if they have that kind of technology, why would they even invade until they've launched every E bomb they have? I don't think you're being realistic at all. You've watched way too much television. A successful invasion would require that our enemies are smarter than we are. That's, by no means, a stretch of the imagination, for me. We're so arrogant, most people do think the US is practically invulnerable.

I don't believe that the US is invincible or invulnerable, but I do believe that any invasion's potential ramifications must be weighed by the attacking country in factoring whether the US is vulnerable to invasion. While most of you have presented valid points, let's all keep in mind that any invasion is deterred in no small part by the vast nuclear arsenal the US has at its disposal, along with the dispersal of US forces across the globe.

The pinpoint precision required for the communications disruptions that have been presented here are still subject to too many flaws or potential setbacks to be considered a viable means of setting up an invasion. If any one piece of the communications puzzle is left untouched, the offending country would pretty much be joining us in Hell as the warheads fly.

Adding to the problem for any potential invading nation would be US military forces stationed around the world. There aren't many areas of the world that the US military couldn't strike back against from bases in Europe or Asia, for example. And those areas that couldn't be targeted likely don't have enough military to bring to bear for an actual invasion of the United States.

So it's not merely a matter of whether any country could bring the amount of force to bear for an actual invasion. You have to look at whether any country capable of bringing sufficient force would be willing to suffer the consequences of those actions. This is the major deterrent, perhaps above all others listed so far, that prevents the likelihood of an actual invasion of a foreign power on US soil. The consequences are potentially too great.

Originally posted by Damned

No one asked if we were vulnerable to a successful invasion. Who says you have to win to invade?

There's more to it than that. Very few world leaders are suicidal. They're generally pretty shrewd people. They wouldn't invade without very strong prospect of success, and no such prospect exists.

And, again, if they have that kind of technology, why would they even invade until they've launched every E bomb they have? I don't think you're being realistic at all.

LOL! I'd say the same about you. You're just ignoring my arguments about why no nation would take the monumental risk you are speculating about. For a good four decades, the Soviets were a closer match to us militarily than any nation today comes even close to being, yet they never attempted an invasion. Why was that?

You've watched way too much television.

Ah ... here comes the ad hominem attack. I was waiting for that. Doesn't say much for what you think of the strength of your own argument that you feel compelled to try this ploy.

You don't know me, and I don't know you. You certainly have no idea how much or how little television I way watch, nor in any case is that even remotely relevant to the discussion.

A successful invasion would require that our enemies are smarter than we are. That's, by no means, a stretch of the imagination, for me. We're so arrogant, most people do think the US is practically invulnerable.

And any potential attacker as smart as we are would surely be aware of the substantial uncertainties in launching the kind of assault you speculate about. Why take such a huge risk when there are far easier pickings around?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
This is an interesting question. Having thought about it, I would venture to say that no forces movement from mainland China is required, since, the US may already be surrounded.
........
All that is required then is the incident to decrease US military power without establishing who is responsible for the assault and launch the invasion.
.......
So the best I can do to come up with such an incident is to wait until the US fleet sails to undertake a war exercise, as they gather within an area, launch from a submarine or submarines, a burst of missiles necessary to destroy, bring down their systems, also fire a few onto the mainland and the US is in total disarray. The land forces from the north and south mobilize and move in.
.......

We're still talking about an invasion here.

...Of the fourth largest country in the world

...with the best military in the world


In order to invade the US you would need an extremely large army. There is no way that China or anyone can build up a force large enough to invade the US in Canada or South America without it being unnoticed.
The US would never get to the point where the whole army is vulnerable to sub attack period, let alone if we see any type of buildup.

It's also impossible to have an incident or series of incidents where most of our land, air, and sea forces are destroyed and us not knowing who is responsible. As that would take weeks, months, even years to do....

When debating this issue, one must also ask why would China invade the U.S.? What do we have here that China would find worth it? Also, don't forget the fact that we have a couple nuclear weapons. We could cause China to glow in the dark for quite a while, without one soldier. So aside from the fact that we would resist the occupation just like we are seeing in Iraq, but on a much larger scale, China would lose their homeland. So of course anything is possible, but the chances of winning the lottery are probably greater than China invading, IMO.

Originally posted by Damned
The best way to insure destruction would be to launch them into space and send them to the US, all at once. I doubt we'd even know what hit us. Not much chance for retaliation there. And again, you're assuming that our invaders would want this land. Chances are, they'd only want to destroy us because they're angry about us taking over the entire earth. In such a case, I don't think they'd be worried about the condition of our land.

Have you ever heard of NORAD? The minute the Chinese launched even a single missile, we would know about it. And in the time it takes to get here, we would have already retaliated by launching our ICBMs. Even if they took us by surprise and killed everyone in North America, there is no way that they could destroy our subs, which would launch their nukes and turn China into a wasteland.

You didn't read that article, did you? Certain E bombs can even penetrate Faraday cages. There's no escape from it. The pulse is emitted at high frequencies that defeat protective devices like Faraday Cages. You're living in a dream world, apparently.

Great, so certain E-bombs can defeat Faraday cages, big deal. Unless you know where a target is, you cant destroy it, even with an E-Bomb. You can be sure that the military has redundent systems that are hidden, even from the Chinese.

All invasions begin with attacks. Are you that naive? We didn't go into Iraq without bombing the living crap out of them first. No one in their right mind is just going to send troops to the coast and watch them get shot.

Have you no understanding of war strategies?

There is a difference between an attack(i.e.- Pearl Harbor, 9/11) and a full scale invasion. Yes, China could technically attempt an invasion, but it would be foolish and utter failure. The Chinese arent stupid, they know that the consequences for an assault on the US mainland would be devastating.
It is you who have no comprehension of combat tactics or strategy. Your suggestion that China would pre-emptively strike us with nuclear weapons is ludicrous. It would be the end of them, and they know it. And with our naval power, it would be virtually impossible for them to land any formidable amount of troops on our soil.




[edit on 12-11-2004 by apw100]