Make everything 'Free': A Voluntegalitarian System (utopia)

Originally posted by melancholiflower


Surely all these things are psychological imbalances or misplacements - fighting over toys = aggressive territorial behaviour.

Let's say this utopian society was to cater for peoples psychological and physical needs then displaced aggression such as this wouldn't necessarily happen?

Hey we could drug the population into docility,
make them compliant,
and have a brave new world.

Originally posted by OneManArmy
Hey we could drug the population into docility,
make them compliant,
and have a brave new world.

I'm more in favour of the moksha medicine myself. Show people their docility, not enhance it.

Originally posted by OneManArmy
The more I see the ideologies presented here, they are very much in the communism camp.

A few more points.... If everyone owns a Merc, whats so special about a Merc when everyone has one?
Id guess everyone will end up driving trabants, and as Animal Farm pointed out, there will always be those that are more equal than the others.

I think that those that pointed out that its mankind that is the variable that ruins any good ideology hits the nail right on the head. As soon as you insert greed and emotion into every ideological equation, the equation falls down, regardless of how good an ideology it is.

if that is true.. and you truly believe that, then why are you defending capitalism?

also? if everyone can get a merc and everyone chooses to get a merc, then we increase the manufacturing houses for mercs, and cut down the manufacturing houses for other types of cars based on demand. what's wrong with everyone having a merc? u still get to be unique by decorating, customizing etc your merc to represent your own personality. do you really have to feel special because u have more and nicer toys than other ppl? stupid toys that you will eventually die and leave here?

such thoughts are for the shallow ones and there is a path available to them.. contribute more and work hard as they always say they do and enjoy added luxury. i tell u in such a system such shallow materialistic ppl will be a dying breed. only the old fogies of today and the indoctrinated mentally enslaved will defend the current system because they have seen prosperity. selfishly against those who work hard and do not see prosperity.

The children of tomorrow will have no problem with this system. soon enough the wretched old hardened minds will die out and we will have a better world.

some things are not meant to last forever.. capitalism is one of them. think forward, because things will change because they will need to be.

under capitalism.. economies run on cycles, and so do recessions and depressions, with greater growth so does come greater recession and depression with each turn of the machine. how many more of these increasingly detrimental worldwide economic problems do you think the planet can face? do u like going to war because someone has something u need but they dont like you because u dont treat them like a friend and so deny it to you? isnt that stealing? isnt that what criminals and crooks do? they want your iphone and you wont give it so they shoot u in the head and take it. are they justified?

reply to post by filledcup


What would you do with someone who decides not to participate, and instead takes up residence in his retired parent's basement eating their food and still enjoying all the free stuff?

If you require a sort of credit card that has labor credits that can be used to purchase goods, then you haven't eliminated currency at all. Instead you're just eliminating cash and forcing everyone to live on a budget anyways.

The goal of your system should be to eliminate jobs, not create them. Under your current approach, the value of those labor credits would fluctuate with supply and demand just as our dollars do today. What happens when we start producing a surplus and can't find anywhere to earn labor credits? We'll be in the same boat we're in now.

This is a very interesting topic, and one that I have devoted a lot of my time, energy, life and thinking to.

When one lives in a wretched world like this, one can't help starting to wonder about better systems and better worlds, it's only natural for any rational individual, especially those that have actually lived in better worlds before incarnating / transporting here.

What you propose is close to what I have sometimes tried to suggest myself, with some exceptions - in my vision, there would be improvements in all sections. Why would there be a "Bentz" in an "utopian" world? Without capitalism, logos, advertizing, branding and merchandizing are not necessary anymore.

I don't think manufacturing Benzes with such a waiting-list-system would be a good idea anyway - I think it would be better to design a perfect car, as good as possible, in all levels, layers, etc. - and of course it would be free-energy, zero-point, non-polluting transport, that would have an optional robotic drive so that no one would have to actually 'drive' (though the legalese word means doing commerce) a car if they don't want to. If the whole traffic system is designed to accommodate this kind of robotic systems, traffic would become completely safe for everyone, and there would be no traffic jams - or at least they could be easily minimized - the robotic drive would be able to plan the routes with all information of all relevant other automobiles and their routes on the way, so each car could accommodate each other automatically, optimizing the routes for all (and updating it in real-time of course).

When everyone would have this perfect car for free first, -then- some kind of luxury models could be designed, and I wouldn't mind if THOSE would actually cost something, because they are not a basic need for anyone, and only vain, egomaniac people would want such anyway. They would have freedom to have them, but they would have to pay (and perhaps work - but work would be pleasant, and everyone would benefit from their wok, etc.)

Still, I am not going to list my whole vision for the 'utopia', although it's very self-evident to me how everything could be optimized, because there are some problems.

First of all, those who created this system and capitalism, those that duped the masses and practically stole their lands, who own almost the whole planet for all intents and purposes, and who hold all the 'cards', would stand in the way of ANY change to the current status quo and power structure. They -want- this planet to be polluted.

Second of all, ape-demon-sheeple like these .. NO system would ever work with them! People are _REALLY_ stupid. The movie 'Idiocracy' is not much of an exaggaration, in fact. There were some people in that movie that actually seemed pretty intelligent in comparison to some very 'normal' current 'Earth' folk. They can't even write the easiest language in the world (english) correctly. I mean, JAPANESE is a difficult language to write. Russian, Chinese, and certain other languages are quirky, difficult to write and speak, and there are languages with incredibly (and needlessly) complex grammatical structures, which practically ensures that almost no foreigners can learn to be completely fluent in them, to the extent that they would be indistinguishable from 'native' speakers. It would be understandable, if they made mistakes in -those- languages, sure.

But that's just the tip of the stupidity-greed-ignorance-selfishness-iceberg.

With these people, no system would ever work. The evil people would again find a loophole or way to dupe the ever-so-unvigilant-masses, who would be glad to follow the dictators, oligarchs and tyrants, again, again and again. It has been proved throughout the Earth history, that this always happens, no matter what the system.

For real utopia to happen on this odd planet, the PEOPLE would have to change. A lot. They would have to not only learn the truth about ALL relevant things (I bet even the original poster doesn't know why his name is written in all caps in his bank cards and contracts and such -- hint: it's -not- his name! It's very similar, but it's always -slightly- different (all caps, 'surname' first, has a 'title', like "Mr.", "Miss" or something similar, etc.)..

There's so much going on that the masses don't know anything about. They trust what they are told. They could be duped and duped again, over and over again, until they develop enough intelligence, backbone, and healthy suspicion of self-appointed "authorities". Until they learn to question people who claim to own them, there's no hope for any kind of a good system to take place.

The best system ever, would fail with these people. And the evil ones would take advantage of the stupid masses. So, while it's fun to dream, and great fun to think about all the details of these utopian (natural) systems that would bring happiness for all, and resources in abundance, it can't work with THESE "people".

(Charlimit happened again)

Originally posted by filledcup

Originally posted by OneManArmy
The more I see the ideologies presented here, they are very much in the communism camp.

A few more points.... If everyone owns a Merc, whats so special about a Merc when everyone has one?
Id guess everyone will end up driving trabants, and as Animal Farm pointed out, there will always be those that are more equal than the others.

I think that those that pointed out that its mankind that is the variable that ruins any good ideology hits the nail right on the head. As soon as you insert greed and emotion into every ideological equation, the equation falls down, regardless of how good an ideology it is.

if that is true.. and you truly believe that, then why are you defending capitalism?

also? if everyone can get a merc and everyone chooses to get a merc, then we increase the manufacturing houses for mercs, and cut down the manufacturing houses for other types of cars based on demand. what's wrong with everyone having a merc? u still get to be unique by decorating, customizing etc your merc to represent your own personality. do you really have to feel special because u have more and nicer toys than other ppl? stupid toys that you will eventually die and leave here?

such thoughts are for the shallow ones and there is a path available to them.. contribute more and work hard as they always say they do and enjoy added luxury. i tell u in such a system such shallow materialistic ppl will be a dying breed. only the old fogies of today and the indoctrinated mentally enslaved will defend the current system because they have seen prosperity. selfishly against those who work hard and do not see prosperity.

The children of tomorrow will have no problem with this system. soon enough the wretched old hardened minds will die out and we will have a better world.

some things are not meant to last forever.. capitalism is one of them. think forward, because things will change because they will need to be.

under capitalism.. economies run on cycles, and so do recessions and depressions, with greater growth so does come greater recession and depression with each turn of the machine. how many more of these increasingly detrimental worldwide economic problems do you think the planet can face? do u like going to war because someone has something u need but they dont like you because u dont treat them like a friend and so deny it to you? isnt that stealing? isnt that what criminals and crooks do? they want your iphone and you wont give it so they shoot u in the head and take it. are they justified?

edit on 28-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

Show me where I defended capitalism? Putting words in my mouth and then arguing against something I never said is pretty futile.
And also can you point out where I said I wanted war, for any reason?

There is no man more unwavering in his oppression of those under him than a man that truly believes his cause is righteous.

The end doesnt always justify the means.
For the record, Im pro freedom, and anti death and destruction.
You never save lives by killing people. You just create enemies, that want to kill you.

To continue a few details that I think might be better than your Benz-system:

With good enough people, almost any system can be made to work, probably even capitalism, even communism (though in communism humans don't have - or at least can't use - all rights, because they don't have ownership - according to Badnarik, all rights come from ownership, and although I think it's a logical and reasonable thing to say, I can't completely agree with it, but it serves for practical purposes, just like Newton's laws serve for Earthly purposes and small-scale models that do not have to take into account the finer details, just like someone building a house doesn't need to take Earth's curvature into account), and the like.

So if we imagine a world where there live only GOOD people, then we could quickly realize that robots could do all the hard work, and LEISURE would be optimized for people - no one would have to work more than a year or two of their whole lives, and even that would be pleasant and fun work, so that people would probably want to work way more than that. And yet everyone could live better than the 'elite' right now.

About the Benzes (sorry to take so long to get to the point); my idea is that there are automated factories, that are computer-controlled. Everyone would have an opportunity to design any kind of cars or whatever other things they think they want or need, and then they could feed those designs into the factories - they could just upload them from their home computers, or they could go to the factory to do the designing, or just adjust already-existing models, and they would have trained tutors helping them on how to do it (GOOD people means that people also wouldn't be STUPID, like Terran folk tend to be, so it would be easy and fun to teach them, not like computer helpdesks are here).

That way, everyone could have any luxurious car they want - no need to call them 'benzes', they could be named whatever the individual wants to name it, if a name is even necessary!

As you see, I base my vision on freedom - in every possible layer in life, as much freedom as possible. In car design, in naming, in every darn thing. But in all that freedom, respect and good caretaking and caring about the planet, nature, animals and humans would come first - only then the individual freedoms. Nowadays it's the other way around, even in Badnarik's otherwise splendid visions - it would still leave too much room for selfishness to spoil things.

Healthcare and all that would of course be absolutely free for everyone, because when you are sick, you can't really pay, and everyone should be taken care of, it's our obligation to take care of our brothers, and nothing in our lives can be so important that it overrides this compassion! So there's no moral excuse to be too busy to take care of someone who needs help, especially if they have a serious illness or have hurt themselves or something.

With better hospitals, better 'understanding' (not the legalese meaning) of what a human being is, and a human being's multi-dimensional nature, chakra system, energy flows, acupuncture points, meridians, kundalini and all that, hospitals would also be extremely comfortable, instead of being extremely clinical and inhuman, like they are now. And people wouldn't be sarcastic and hostile, tired doctors and smart-ass, fat, ugly, feministic nurses, but simply people who have devoted their lives to helping others, and who genuinely care about the patients as human beings and respect them, talk to them like human beings (chinese doctors are very good at this already, they talk to you like you deserve to be alive, it's an amazing contrast to typical western doctors), and can heal you thoroughly instead of just treating your symptoms with synthetic chemicals, like is the way in this world.

It's really fun thinking (or remembering..) about the perfect, or "good enough" world, where things are actually planned well, no one reproduces without planning it, taking the whole planet and its population into account, the system is built for humans, instead of some kind of corporate machines, relaxation and leisure is appreciated, instead of working your heart into overdrive and so on.

But it would never work with these people. Even if E.T.s came and cleaned up all the pollution and garbage, removed all the oppressive infrastructures, and even the so-called 'elite' -- things would seem fine for awhile, but soon there would be a new 'elite' group, that would try to take over the world, and people being complacent, ignorant and stupid, they would quickly succeed, and this would again be the result..

As long as people are the way they are, the world is doomed to become like this. It cannot change before people wake up, learn to say NO, learn to question their 'masters', learn to claim their rights, learn to read 'legal documents' before signing applications/registrations/submissions.. (charlimit)

If everything is free then who is going to make all that free stuff?

Kinda of a paradox isn't it ?

Like EVERYTHING IS FREE right ?

Who makes all that stuff ?

No one is working, no one is getting compensated.

No one.

"all are equal. your worth is calculated by your hrs of contribution to society per day on an ongoing basis. "

So. Which one is it? Are we equal, or do we have individually measurable and discernible worth? A Mercedes is desirable because it represents a higher value and status than a Honda. If everything is to be free, then nothing worth making will be made. You cannot get something from, and/or for, nothing. Even nature lives by these rules; i.e. if I want food to grow I have to insure water flow, sunlight, and a pest-free environment. I have to work. And work isn't free. Work = Time + Energy. Capitalism already allows you to work for credit (money); store it or use it; and it's linearly obtained with time and effort. Perhaps your idea, and perhaps the intent of your idea, though not recognized, is not that things should be free, but that people should be fairly compensated for the work they do and the good they do for other people. You cannot remove greed from people. The ideologies espoused throughout political history have all failed beause humans want to be special. A Benz will never again be a Benz if A) It's free or B) Anyone that works can have one. People need to change, not "the government", not "our enemies", not "the system". No idea will work until ALL people become good people, or at the very least the bad people are all afraid of the good people. And if that's the case, are they still the good people?

Originally posted by OneManArmy

Show me where I defended capitalism? Putting words in my mouth and then arguing against something I never said is pretty futile.
And also can you point out where I said I wanted war, for any reason?

There is no man more unwavering in his oppression of those under him than a man that truly believes his cause is righteous.

The end doesnt always justify the means.
For the record, Im pro freedom, and anti death and destruction.
You never save lives by killing people. You just create enemies, that want to kill you.

ok so then you dont support capitalism? or is capitalism impervious to those very issues you brought to light? in your view.

and isnt war a product of capitalism. u need a holistic view to properly assess the idea here. dont try to isolate things. that is what has us inthis mess of a world with crime trying the same solutions for centuries and they havent worked.. yet we're still trying the same solutions only with greater intensity.

ISNT THAT MADNESS? Square peg in round hole and trying to force it to fit?

and if capitalism is also flawed as u may admit. how would u suggest we go about repairing those flaws? or should we not even bother and let the world descend into cannibalism for survival?

Originally posted by filledcup

Originally posted by OneManArmy

Show me where I defended capitalism? Putting words in my mouth and then arguing against something I never said is pretty futile.
And also can you point out where I said I wanted war, for any reason?

There is no man more unwavering in his oppression of those under him than a man that truly believes his cause is righteous.

The end doesnt always justify the means.
For the record, Im pro freedom, and anti death and destruction.
You never save lives by killing people. You just create enemies, that want to kill you.

ok so then you dont support capitalism? or is capitalism impervious to those very issues you brought to light? in your view.

and isnt war a product of capitalism. u need a holistic view to properly assess the idea here. dont try to isolate things. that is what has us inthis mess of a world with crime trying the same solutions for centuries and they havent worked.. yet we're still trying the same solutions only with greater intensity.

ISNT THAT MADNESS? Square peg in round hole and trying to force it to fit?

and if capitalism is also flawed as u may admit. how would u suggest we go about repairing those flaws? or should we not even bother and let the world descend into cannibalism for survival?

edit on 28-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

My view is that every ISM is an ideology ruined by people.
Its people that do horrible things, its people that get greedy, its people that break the laws of the land, and people that think they are above the laws of the land.
War is a product of people, mankind has warred since we lived in caves.
We have been trying the same solutions for centuries, because many of the theories are sound, its the practice of the people that lets it down.
And do you honestly think that a world without capitalism = cannibalism? Isnt that madness?


The flaws that need repairing are the flaws in people, and after 8,000 years of "recorded" history we havent done it yet, so can you see it happening any time soon?

To enhance on your idea, i'd like to proffer something which I read a while back, though I can't remember who it was right now.

But basically it was in support of machines taking over all the monotonous job roles leaving people freed up to work on the things they prefer. It seems highly plausible that people would then work on what truly motivates them, probably leaving less room for lounging and time dwindling. It does seem it's been implemented somewhat.

Though considering lounging around, so what if people want to spend their earth lives lounging around? Shouldn't that kinda be their prerogative? It's always seemed strange to me that we never appear to ask to be born and we are thrown into a world of force fed education and then work or die choices, and cos this is the given norm people will defend this and repeat the mantra on to others. But you can't just live anywhere, there's laws against that. You can't just grow your food if you've no land to grow it on. Foraging is impractical since greenland has fastly disappeared.

Surely there's enough resources going around to freely support everyone into living as they please supported by base needs, and if someone wants a little more than basic necessity then there are jobs they can take up to earn a little extra. Again though, like many have said, it requires a big change from people to avoid it slipping back into capitalism. Greed man, so much greed. Greed for dominion.

In the past people have achieve gargantuan feats by working together for a common goal, and now there are more people and less impressive products of those people. Perhaps a common goal would get people to pull their fingers out their arses and do a little more for society as a whole.

Originally posted by neo96
If everything is free then who is going to make all that free stuff?

Kinda of a paradox isn't it ?

Like EVERYTHING IS FREE right ?

Who makes all that stuff ?

No one is working, no one is getting compensated.

No one.

just because it's free doesn't mean people will stop making it.. the focus would shift from making what is needed to generate profit to making what is actually needed.. hopefully it would mean an end to all the crap commodified music out there xD

reply to post by filledcup


it is an interesting idea that could work except for a few little problems ,banks churches governments and the super rich elitists who seem to think that money is power ,brain dead PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE .but we as a species are our own worst t nightmare and our own worst enemy as we cant get along let alone work together for the greater good of the human race as there will always be those who want to be KINGS so to speak grant you none of them know what a king truly is .or does .
case in point ;
all over the world they are trying to find the cure for CANCER , and yet they don't have it . WHY? because there is no data base anywhere in the world where all scientists can log into and see what has been tried and fails and what might help.our species cant even work together on something as easy as this as it is all about PRESTIGE ,egos.
and you expect them to get together and work out our problems christ they cant even decide how to build something without an army of engineers to draw it for them and they still cannot follow the blue prints and get it right .the blind leading the blind deaf dumb and stupid -no insult intended ther a figure of speah only .

Originally posted by picratus
reply to post by filledcup

 

it is an interesting idea that could work except for a few little problems ,banks churches governments and the super rich elitists who seem to think that money is power ,brain dead PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE .but we as a species are our own worst t nightmare and our own worst enemy as we cant get along let alone work together for the greater good of the human race as there will always be those who want to be KINGS so to speak grant you none of them know what a king truly is .or does .
case in point ;
all over the world they are trying to find the cure for CANCER , and yet they don't have it . WHY? because there is no data base anywhere in the world where all scientists can log into and see what has been tried and fails and what might help.our species cant even work together on something as easy as this as it is all about PRESTIGE ,egos.
and you expect them to get together and work out our problems christ they cant even decide how to build something without an army of engineers to draw it for them and they still cannot follow the blue prints and get it right .the blind leading the blind deaf dumb and stupid -no insult intended ther a figure of speah only .

i need another galaxy of stars for this post now..

Although I think voluntarism should be utilized to a much, much larger extent in our world (the possibilities are endless), I have two big issues with this proposed system:

1) You have implied that government, ie. the state, should continue to be around while this Voluntegalitarian system is in place.

2) You want to eliminate money.

Regarding 1), if we are to try to create the best system for humanity, I think it should be based on basic universal principles of morality. Government is inherently immoral because it grants a very small amount of people the right to have a monopoly on the use of violence. Therefore, I don't agree that the system you propose is a good one if government will still be around.

Also, government itself doesn't create anything..It only steals from the private sector and then reallocates as it sees fit. If everything is free, ie. no money, I'm not sure how the government would operate or even exist anyway unless it were to threaten people with punishment for not performing a certain type of work for however long it had mandated (aka slavery)

As far as 2), I think it's best to again approach things from a moral standpoint. Is it an immoral act for two people to use a designated and agreed upon medium of exchange in respect to goods and services?? I do not think so. Therefore, if people want to use money then that is their right. A true free market transaction is a wonderful thing. I value a large pizza more than my 20$ and the pizza place values my 20$ more than the pizza. It's a win win for everyone.
(Now, again, with the existence of government involvement things get a bit trickier. The immorality of government, as we see in our current system, will always corrupt and pollute everything it touches such as banking, education, health care, etc.)

Also, as Stefan Molyneux appropriately pointed out in a debate with someone representing the Zeitgeist Movement and a Resource Based Economy, there's simply is no computer equation/algorithm strong or complex enough to possibly calculate and then replace the infinitely complex activities of the global market currently utilizing money.

Basically, if society were to be based on virtue, truth, morality, universally preferable behavior, the non-aggression principle, etc...(all those terms that libertarian leaning, freedom loving people like myself never shut up about) , I believe that this would be the best possible system we could have.
I struggle with the idea of whether or not this is feasible but it still seems like a system for everyone to cosider and hopefully we can move in that direction for future generations.

reply to post by neo96

No one is working, no one is getting compensated.

What makes you think people won't work if they're not compensated ?

Get your brain out of Granny gear.

People will work if they're greatful
Most people who work now aren't fairly compensated anyway.

And OP you stole my idea and I want compensation.

All jokes aside

OP, this would work and it's the weakeast spot in the elites armour.

Originally posted by OneManArmy
My view is that every ISM is an ideology ruined by people.
Its people that do horrible things, its people that get greedy, its people that break the laws of the land, and people that think they are above the laws of the land.
War is a product of people, mankind has warred since we lived in caves.
We have been trying the same solutions for centuries, because many of the theories are sound, its the practice of the people that lets it down.
And do you honestly think that a world without capitalism = cannibalism? Isnt that madness?


The flaws that need repairing are the flaws in people, and after 8,000 years of "recorded" history we havent done it yet, so can you see it happening any time soon?

well im still waiting on your position. are you saying capitalism is the best thing since sliced bread? hence there is no way to improve it? it's an ism right? so are u defending it's right to stay forever? or are u saying there shouldnt be any ISMs whatsoever as long as there are humans in the equation?

the direction of ur tone is obviously one that takes a stance against this idea. but do u have a better one?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by neo96

 

No one is working, no one is getting compensated.

What makes you think people won't work if they're not compensated ?

Get your brain out of Granny gear.

People will work if they're greatful
Most people who work now aren't fairly compensated anyway.

And OP you stole my idea and I want compensation.

All jokes aside

OP, this would work and it's the weakeast spot in the elites armour.

edit on 28-8-2013 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

ROOOFFLL
just took a peak at that thread and this is what i saw

Originally posted by paraphi

Originally posted by randyvs
Indeed Mammon, was coined as a false god. A demon of unjust worldly
gain. The english word money finds it's roots in Mammon.

The word "money does not have origins in the word "Mammon". Mammon is greed, riches and wealth.

Money is just a means to exchange goods and services.

Regards

lmfao..

dude said "mammon isnt greed for money.. it's greed for money"

then said "money isnt wealth.. it's wealth"

and seemed very sure of himself that he made a different distinction. u see what im saying.. and look how many stars he got. these ppl are mad i tell u. and they look at the few sane ppl on the earth and call us mad. smdh


thelibertarianrepublic.com...[editby ]edit on 28-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)