Welfare for everyone is the only ANSWER for USA.. here is why

reply to post by HanzHenry

you ? a Marine ? seriously doubtful unless you carried their water.
so, your mamma served 2 tours ?? please, tell her thank you

as for credibility, when you develop some, come back and have a real discussion, eh?

I've been really busy and meaning to get back to this thread. i want to read all the way through (and a dozen others) before I get in deep with comments, but it caught my eye. I think the OP has realized some things are fundamentally wrong with capitalism and the way the western financial system works. this is very true, and the fact that things are a complete mess under a sugar coated surface proves that.

At the same time, I don't think universal welfare is quite the answer... although for many people, more people than what benefits cover, it is a last hope. We cannot have such a negative attitude toward the poor, sick and elderly when the simple fact is... there just isn't enough work for everyone to have full time jobs... plus there is inefficiency in the system that makes simple things even harder to obtain. The housing market is a perfect example. Prices go up just because mortgage companies trade some paper.... this is nuts and I think the OP sees that, but there's many other things that must be done. At this point, a sweeping welfare move would only make things that much worse.

I'm not here to promote Lenin, because even though he was a very smart man educated in politics... he supported terrorism (although a different type of terrorism than the weird false flag stuff we see today... they were very open with their intent). It's a shame that his ideas were too extreme because a big part of his philosophies were geared to taking wealth away from the greedy... because they had simply accumulated too much. having money made it easy for them. Before this happened, you had extremely rich and extremely poor....which is still a problem everywhere but we're talking to an absurd extent.

Suddenly, this became frowned upon to the point of mass public executions.
I don't pretend to know a lot about russian politics but I have read a little and it's interesting but can kind of be hard to read because of all the different political groups that were being created in response to infiltration and arguing among those groups... so name sake really makes it a complicated read but my point is that in the West right now, many people are getting this sense that is almost headed toward the same kind of thinking. most people know about the 1 percent. This was less known years ago. It's much more common knowledge now.

I'm not recommending we drag people who have money out into the streets and hang them but an approach must be made to face down this issue in society... realistically.

this type of revolution in Russia long ago had it's reasons but caused a lot of kinks at the same time... although I do believe a lot was learned by all this and there are things they know about history and economics that most Americans don't think about, I believe.

the playing field has to be leveled, but there still must be an incentive... or nothing will get done.
i do believe wealth should be more spread out, but if it is not approached with a great sense of order and leadership, then things will get ugly fast.

We need to embrace new ideals of efficiency and simplicity...perhaps to a regulated extent...and all people should have at least "enough"

It would be a very complicated task to map it all out, but any problem can be solved... ultimately, maybe not currently, but one way or another even if it involves ways we cannot even dream about. Nothing is impossible, maybe just for humankind at this point in time... but the scientific processes can handle anything that the scientific universe created and chaos theory can be eliminated from any potential... if only we could learn how.

I'm sure there has been a lot of heated words exchanged here... but it's clear that something must be done and so many simply do not have "enough"...simply for not being at the right place at the right time or having the right last name and it is sickening that people don't understand this. it's sickening that those who have jobs, even jobs that don't make them rich... cannot see the suffering of others and that it is not possible with the current system for everyone who needs to be employed, to be employed. people have to stop ignoring that this system is flawed and needs to be changed. If it isn't, things are going to get really really bad and those who ignored it will be the ones to blame.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by HanzHenry

 

you ? a Marine ? seriously doubtful unless you carried their water.
so, your mamma served 2 tours ?? please, tell her thank you

as for credibility, when you develop some, come back and have a real discussion, eh?

edit on 22-8-2013 by Honor93 because: change gramma to mamma as i misread a previous post

yes, US Marine proudly served. that all you have? and I was sent to Margaritaville.. not the Buffet song. something above your paygrade. hint--- Wikipedia -33 area..!!

so, my family is clearly... every one of my relatives serve.. you ...eh, not so much..

back to WELFARE.. you have NO credibility, as clearly shown by your posts. If you dare say I wasn't a MARINE? cheap and baseless. I have dd214, metal in my body, monthly PENSION!, ID card, VA card, and I get 10% off ALL purchases I make at pretty much every big store chain. From LOWES to AUTOZONE..

so, WELFARE works.. here is where EVEN MARINES learn about troop welfare..ps., its the one of only 2 objectives!

USMC objectives

reply to post by Honor93


mods: if for some reason my post T&C's .. then theirs should also.. to accuse me of not being a Marine and insulting my service is not gonna go unnoticed.

I went above and beyond the call of duty to save others lives, and suffered career ending injuries TWICE, I beat the odds and rehab'd once! got a waiver and was "back at it". And, after that STILL contracted with the a company for the govt. doing something my body 'couldn't do' anymore.. yep I carried water.

That's why I am sitting in a 2 story 5 bedroom house is sunny southern California. all I ever did was carry water, that why my wife drives a sparkling triple white town car. ANd I have a blind lady and her daughter in our spare rooms who we help FOR free!

I believe it is OUR DUTY as AMERICANS to take care of each other..


America is OUR HOUSE!


NOONE living under my ROOF"

1. will go hungry while I eat
2. none will eat gruel while some munch on lobster
3. none will have 2 bedrooms while some have none
4. have a pocket full of cash while someone else hasn't a dime.

NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE, someone else's GRANDPA paid a larger price, and that orphan's future offspring DESERVES MORE than those with more WHOSE GRANDPA COWERED!!

reply to post by HanzHenry

hey, thanks for the reveal, now everyone is aware of your BS story.

monthly PENSION!

when you can offer some facts, instead of tall tales, i'd be happy to continue participating, until then, as mentioned previously, enjoy your delerium.

I think I understand Honor93's angle. This poster thinks the country was founded and functioned, prior to the 19th century, solely on a barter & trade economy, which it did not. Once it became an established Commonwealth of the Queen, banking, was here to stay. There has ALWAYS been an economic system at work in the USA that limited the number of able bodied workers whom would be PAID and those who COULD NOT be paid. The "owners of capital" learned their lesson about labor shortages POST the "Black Death" and figured out from that day forward how to keep wages down and potential available laborers at maximum levels competing for scarce available positions.

In the past when there wasn't enough money to go around to pay wages the "owners of capital" simply brought in more indentured servant immigrants (Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc) or used flat out slave labor (Blacks, Native Americans, domestic prisoners, POW's, etc). The only difference between now and then is that "owners of capital" can't LEGALLY have slaves or indentured servants anymore, BUT they have the same pressures as before, to keep wages flowing and laborers working even when there isn't enough "PIE" to go around to pay them for services rendered. The mechanisms today that replaces slaves and indentured servants are the following: longer than needed formal education for basic employment, off-shoring of labor, forced retirement, prisoners and welfare.

Honor93 also keeps talking about self reliance like barter, trading, avoiding money etc. What this poster doesn't realize is that the US Government already saw this coming post the 1929 depression and have created many tomes of codes and laws criminalizing many acts of POTENTIAL non-compliance in the larger economy. Look at the sate of the homeless in this country and how laws affect their nomadic lifestyles, for a perfect demonstration of what I describe. ITS SO OBVIOUS the "owners of capital" knew there could be a breaking point, when TOO MANY people could simultaneously attempt to drop out of the system.

If too many people start going off the grid, not paying taxes, not getting drivers licenses, skipping school, etc, they will simply throw these people in jail and have them "work" for free on chain gangs producing goods and services for little or no wages. I wouldn't be surprised if bounty hunter type "bounty payments" are enacted for catching suspected homeless people down the road, to then be put into "pseudo homeless shelters" where they will be "taught how to work" for their room and board. All under some kind of halfway house program sponsored by a corporation. Essentially, defacto indentured servants and slaves have been LEGALIZED all over again because they are "prisoners" or "being held for their own protection", not entitled to the full benefits of their citizenship.

Side note, I saw this happen when I was in college. A professor won a government contract that normally would have gone to a private sector engineering company. The professor employed less than a dozen part-time student workers at minimum wage and had subbed out the majority of the work to a prison corporation who was "rehabbing the inmates" by training them to do the work of $100 billable hour junior to senior level engineer on the same project. It would have paid the salaries of 7-10 private sector engineers a full time engineering wage for about 4-5 weeks to finish the project, BUT instead they used a dozen part-time students at minimum wage and 30 inmates at less than minimum wage to finish the project. The government agency was ecstatic because to the public they hired a well known academic, got students work experience and rehabbed some prisoners all at the same. Sounds great until you put it all into perspective:

The Nazi's did the EXACT same thing, they picked an undesirable group and rendered them unemployable or as only employable with documentation in low wage labor positions. The country during war only had so much "PIE" available to pay people, but still needed "labor" for the war effort. They picked a group of people and with a stroke of a pen turned them all into legal indentured servants, slaves or prisoners.

Grass roots efforts can't stop this kind of Genocide, it takes the will of a wealthy group or neighboring nations with strong democratic values to step in and fight on the behalf of the disenfranchised. We won't be getting that here in the USA, we'll be on our own like those war torn African countries that can never seem to get on their feet, despite having a wealthy base of "owners of Capital" whom could by all accounts foot the bill and turn their countries around overnight if the chose to. You're looking at or living in the NEW SOUTH AFRICA right here in the USA.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by HanzHenry

 

hey, thanks for the reveal, now everyone is aware of your BS story.

monthly PENSION!

when you can offer some facts, instead of tall tales, i'd be happy to continue participating, until then, as mentioned previously, enjoy your delerium.

I don't even know where to begin?

so now veterans don't draw a pension? the military doesn't pay retirees a pension?

un--BELL --EVE --ABLE

reply to post by boohoo


I thank you BOOHOO.

for you have revealed to me, at least I am not on this mountain alone..

how frustrating is it, something so clear.

ignorance is a CONDITION, being ignorant is a condition not an insult.

I admit I am ignorant about some things.. But this OP, not even close. As a young boy, I had philosophical ideas stewing constantly. And after seeing my family tree, wondered how on earth was a society where some give all and get nothing while others do nothing and get all was remotely good, fair , decent, ethical, or moral.

this topic has been the one that I have dwelled upon more over my life than any other. How can some draft dodger coward spit out offspring that think they are entitled to more than the child of a war veteran K.I.A...

then complain that --->THEY HER only Brother died at NORMANDY.. her grandfather, a shopkeeper murdered for being a jew, or her mother dying at birth from Spanish flu.. nope, even though she was a maid for a judge since she was 13, nope, when she was exhausted from 25 years back breaking work and husband dying too young from black lung, because he was basically born into slavery.. company town--coal mining circa 1900.. they were slaves!

nope, she should get no welfare.. and was she more deserving of Welfare than any other of Earth's beings?

so, now today.. some people who are the offspring of those that SACRIFICED NOTHING.. should have a say that "those people over there should feed themselves, I don't wanna pay welfare"

Or the offspring of one of the Patriots who died in the Revolutionary WAR..

THEIR OFFSPRING should eternally be able to get welfare, no questions asked, FOREVER!

look at all that came later than PAID NOTHING!! to found this country

To promote the general welfare could simply be the government regulating certain sectors of business which people need to survive, keeping the prices of food, water, housing, medical care and education affordable to anyone who would need them, maybe a couple of other necessities also, but you probably get my point.

Developing an effective public transportation system for those who might choose not to drive, and infrastructure to separate different forms of transportation, such as pedestrian overpasses and multi-use paths for pedestrians, bicycles and slow moving electric or small gas motored bicycles.

Making it possible for people to develop a healthy attitude toward their fellow man by not allowing any one class to make the other feel demoralized or disenfranchised. I have a pretty good understanding of how people are destroyed by the amount of toil they have to do to just get by at all, and it amounts to exploitation on it's face. The entertainment industry is used to distract us from the amount of agony we must endure.

As I have said before, there is a model for running an economy that does less damage to it's participants, but the banks and corporations which control the countries of the world like things the way they are.

Banks, Corporations, Insurance companies and the legal system they lobby to change laws to benefit them more still, every minute of the day, are responsible for this mess. It's not poor people causing the problem here, it's ridiculously rich people.

In a word "Greed".

can I borrow your crystal ball, it seems more accurate than mine.

that is exactly what's gonna happen.. combined with D13

If too many people start going off the grid, not paying taxes, not getting drivers licenses, skipping school, etc, they will simply throw these people in jail and have them "work" for free on chain gangs producing goods and services for little or no wages. I wouldn't be surprised if bounty hunter type "bounty payments" are enacted for catching suspected homeless people down the road, to then be put into "pseudo homeless shelters" where they will be "taught how to work" for their room and board. All under some kind of halfway house program sponsored by a corporation. Essentially, defacto indentured servants and slaves have been LEGALIZED all over again because they are "prisoners" or "being held for their own protection", not entitled to the full benefits of their citizenship.

reply to post by HanzHenry

This is the "Old World Order " through and through.

Sociologists and Historians have been talking about this for like, Forever.

A book called " The Fourth Turning " along with a bunch of others explains how this " Generational Amnesia" works, how forgetting the past allows those who have knowledge of it to exploit "The Great Forgetting" for a profit.

Those who do not understand history are bound to repeat it.
Another good example of a potential dark future....
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner


everything is OWNED by someone already.. no point in arguing

we have a system of investing/capitalism

In simple terms. Investing means to looking to get more out of something than you put into it.

How can ANYTHING function properly when EVERYONE needs/wants to get more out of something than they put into it?

mathematically impossible


therefore someone must take it in the shorts.. and someone else gets more than they put into it.

whole thing is OFF...immoral.. because it allows the most evil of human impulses to thrive.. GREED..

when GREED thrives ------> Charlie Foxtot... everything C.F.'d

reply to post by HanzHenry

It will self correct when too many are forcibly removed by what amounts to deprivation.
The new "frugality"......
All of the things that are wrong with societies of this planet are directly and indirectly caused by this.

What we have right now is the ability to provide every American with a posh upper middle class lifestyle. Leave it to Beaver $100,000/yr current lifestyle.

Resources: check
Manpower: check
Technology: check


How? get rid of the Modus Operandi of Planned Obsolescence. to where production quality allows things BUILT ONCE the proper method.

And, there could be no billionaires. its that easy.. once you grasp how many people's lives/toil are swept into a jerk's 150 million dollar yacht, one of his multi-million dollar estates, etc.. it takes the meager wages of thousands to support one billionaires greed ... I think all billionaires should start a top down dismantling.. they deserve death!

but I will let the millions of dead/suffering children justice be in the form of --------NO MORE needless anguish so a few can literally "own the world"

Originally posted by MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by HanzHenry

 

It will self correct when too many are forcibly removed by what amounts to deprivation.
The new "frugality"......
All of the things that are wrong with societies of this planet are directly and indirectly caused by this.

when donkeys refuse to chase stringed carrots.

those against welfare are the dumbest of donkeys, running hard as possible for that carrot.

reply to post by boohoo


you want to see what we live in today?

ask a Jewish refugee. Its easy, but hurry they are old and frail.

But the nicest people you will ever meet.

Or, ask a soviet expat a lot of them are cabbies here. they will tell you..
actually ask you "why, how could you let this happen?"

Funny a mainstream article on yahoo just proved my point quoted below:

gma.yahoo.com...

Originally posted by boohoo

Honor93 also keeps talking about self reliance like barter, trading, avoiding money etc. What this poster doesn't realize is that the US Government already saw this coming post the 1929 depression and have created many tomes of codes and laws criminalizing many acts of POTENTIAL non-compliance in the larger economy. Look at the sate of the homeless in this country and how laws affect their nomadic lifestyles, for a perfect demonstration of what I describe. ITS SO OBVIOUS the "owners of capital" knew there could be a breaking point, when TOO MANY people could simultaneously attempt to drop out of the system.

The Nazi's did the EXACT same thing, they picked an undesirable group and rendered them unemployable or as only employable with documentation in low wage labor positions. The country during war only had so much "PIE" available to pay people, but still needed "labor" for the war effort. They picked a group of people and with a stroke of a pen turned them all into legal indentured servants, slaves or prisoners.

edit on 23-8-2013 by boohoo because: (no reason given)

Like I said above, the US government knew we would get here and wrote laws to prevent barter, trade and even CHARITY! Its basically illegal for a church to serve food to the homeless today. The yahoo article says they could have applied for an $800 permit, which many then commented the church should get, to be legally compliant. BUT what they seem to forget is the "permits" can be DENIED.

Try to look ahead and see what this will create. Combine the issue of charity being illegal, so feeding the homeless becomes a criminal offense with jail time AND then legally force the homeless to be "relocated" to rehab/shelter centers on the outskirts of the community, while simultaneously making it illegal for them to return to the "main town center" without explicit "permission" to do so from shelter staff. Here is the article on the town Columbia in South Carolina who has made something like this law:

newsfeed.time.com...

THESE ARE THE NEW "Warsaw ghetto's" !!!

Photo of a Warsaw Ghetto Work Permit and a description of its function:

collections.ushmm.org...

Lets contrast all this with the 1929 depression. Do you think soup kitchen back then needed a "permit" to serve 3,000 starving people a day? If Al Capone was allowed to run a soup kitchen back then, unmolested by Law Enforcement, then you know a "permit" wasn't on anybody's mind. The US government it seems in the past actually wanted people to get some food to eat when they had none.

This kind of publicly policy perfectly fits into what the OP has been stating all along and people will not LEGALLY be able to barter, trade, work under the table or even wiggle around via charity.

When we all are taken care of by the nanny state, we will be obsolete. Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. The corporations are your daddy. You will do what your daddy tells you to do. If you do not comply, you will sent to reeducation class.

Want to earn extra credits! If you see something, say something and you can get bonus credits for the month! This brave new world is only as good as you, the people, make it. War is peace! Consider this reeducation for the masses. We love them and want to help.

Well, Mrs. Jones, it seems as though your operation will cost the state too much credits to perform. I regret your usefulness is over and must comply with the state mandate euthanize department. We will expect you around 7:30 AM for your termination. We feel that your family is at risk for the same problem and would ask for them to come for a check up.

Sincerely, THE STATE


Ok, I'll quit.

reply to post by boohoo

it is a shame that you 'think' you understand, cause you don't.
ppl barter, trade and work under the table, EVERY day.

unfortunately, ppl like yourselves actually believe that 'labor', when provided by self is actually taxable
maybe one day, you'll actually learn the laws rather parrot what the politicos tell ya.

excuse you but the 'black death' happened long before the US ever came into existance. like the 14th century or so ... but yeah, it was the most important 'labor' evolution in American history

but, you are correct about the Monarchy's response ... however, the US isn't a monarchy.

oh, so slavery was a British thing now ???
thank goodness the US is finally off the hook

ah yes ...

also keeps talking about self reliance

... i do and so should everyone else.
after all, America still isn't a monarchy or part of one.

what you are ignoring is the Constitution.
the same Constitution which nullifies many of the 'codes' of which you speak.
unfortunately, the general population isn't taught that they can and should exercise their rights at will.

more ppl are dropping out of the system every day and which laws are changing that ???

there is NO LAW that states that a person is required to work or is that what you're promoting ???

i don't agree with the new approach in SC but i'm not a resident there.
if the residents agree with it, who are we to say they're wrong ?

well, at least we agree that the Nazi's are still running the show.
fyi, you cannot change the system by participating IN it.

@ Hanz -- IF you served at all, it certainly wasn't long enough to draw a pension, end of story.

Originally posted by Honor93

it is a shame that you 'think' you understand, cause you don't.
ppl barter, trade and work under the table, EVERY day.

unfortunately, ppl like yourselves actually believe that 'labor', when provided by self is actually taxable

maybe one day, you'll actually learn the laws rather parrot what the politicos tell ya.

The government is smarter than that and far more prepared than you give them credit for. The new computerized IRS system WILL send a bill to these people eventually and the burden to prove otherwise will be on them. I never said I supported the system we have and that labor should be taxed, I'm pointing out that with the computing power the government has today, you are pretty much screwed if they decide to target you for anything.

Originally posted by Honor93
excuse you but the 'black death' happened long before the US ever came into existance. like the 14th century or so ... but yeah, it was the most important 'labor' evolution in American history

but, you are correct about the Monarchy's response ... however, the US isn't a monarchy.

oh, so slavery was a British thing now ???
thank goodness the US is finally off the hook

The same families that were in charge during the 'black death', are the same ones that were in charge in 1776, 1861, 1929, 1939 and today. You don't think they had ways to efficiently pass on the wisdom of HOW TO RULE to their heirs and their heirs, heirs? Newsflash, they did and we are still under thier thumbs

Originally posted by Honor93
what you are ignoring is the Constitution.
the same Constitution which nullifies many of the 'codes' of which you speak.
unfortunately, the general population isn't taught that they can and should exercise their rights at will.

more ppl are dropping out of the system every day and which laws are changing that ???

there is NO LAW that states that a person is required to work or is that what you're promoting ???

There is no constitution, the "owners of capital" make up the rules as they go, just as they have since the decline of Tribal and Chiefdom level societies.