Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

DuecesxGeneral
reply to post by wildtimes

 

you do know that the followers of the prophet were heavily persecuted because they refused to worship the idols and follow their ancestors way of tradition.
and this type of persecution was not from strangers but by their own families.

Every revolution has suffering. Christians were persecuted then pagans. Pagans persecuted then christians. Flip flop, wobbly bobbly it makes no friggen difference, power changes hands and a terrorist becomes a freedom fighter. Winners get to write history.

Nothing new.

Embarrassing when a group of people are so arrogant that they believe throughout all human history, in their case, in their beliefs, it was different. That was the one time it was all true, or all just, or all ____insert BS here___.

reply to post by Sahabi


May peace arive to you to my friend.
From what i know, the reason why the Quran was comissioned to written wasnt because the Quran was losing parts but , because it takes authority to teach it and with the battle, many people who had authority to teach it were martyred.
Even today i know many muslims that have the Quran memorized. So if 1500 years later so many muslims have learned the quran so easily im pretty sure right around the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) there were many more who had it memorized.

I doubt that that Uthman (r.a) actually tampered with teachings,because he knows very well better than almost any other, that it is a very grave sin.

And second the written down versus of the Qur'an they were trying to find wasn't forgotten it might have been lost its weird i know. Lets say the verse of stoning was lost. The words arnt lost but the paper that it was written down with authority might have been lost for example, Lets say i said "the sky is blue" and my close friends lets say five of them memorized it. They all know what i said when i said it and who i said it to. Lets say one of my friends wrote it down so he can teach it to other people.The authority comes with the people around him bearing witness that I actually said it, so at the bottom lets say they sign it. Now lets say I died and the person who wrote it diedand the written record of it is lost with him. Everyone knows what i said but since that peace of paper is lost, it is harder to spread the word now , because all these different tribes have different dialects, its harder to teach them because the Quran came down in 7 diferent dialects. So To teach it with authority the Quran was written in the form of the Qurashi dialect and passed around and the other dialects were destroyed to stop the confusion. At this time many people were reverting to Islam such as the Persians and the Ethiopians. It would be very difficult to try to teach them in 7 dialects. So to teach them in one, the same dialect of the Holy Prophet(pbuh).

logical7
his wife died due to the economic bycott imposed on his tribe because he did not stop preaching his message.

Considering his 'message' was fake and violent, I'm not surprised that people would try to stop it. But you notice they tried to stop it through peaceful means .. whereas Muhammad just went around stealing and having people murdered. The people were right in trying to stop it. Too bad they failed to do so.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Hey FF!

Commanding the community not to sell anything to a small group of people, not to share any food, any cloth, any shelter, any water, so that people ended up having to literally boil their boots and starve to death is not peaceful. Divorcing en masse, any converted women, and disallowing and cancelling marriage to those from the tribe Muhammad belonged to is not peaceful. Torturing and killing convert slaves and the weaker members of society who have no protection is not peaceful.

I find it interesting what it reveals about you when you call these early converts "peasants" and "goat herders" in a misplaced attempt to be derogatory towards them. Many of them were, yes. Most of the early converts were from the "least important" and neglected parts of the society at the time. Same with Jesus's followers, really.

I think you have a skewed understanding of the origin of Islam in Arabia. Somewhat unrelated, but I find it interesting also how you were less extreme in your views when you were a catholic (I seem to remember you being one in earlier ATS days).

babloyi
you were less extreme in your views when you were a catholic

(I seem to remember you being one in earlier ATS days)

1 - I am not 'extreme'. I am factual. If you want to see extremists, look at some (two in particular) of your muslim brethren on this site who run around pushing sharia and Islam, telling lies about how wonderful it is to women and the world. Those are extremists.
2 - I was RAISED Catholic.
I am now 50+ years old and my religious/spiritual views can't be put in any box.
It's been like that for YEARS. (thank God).

reply to post by babloyi

Islam was (and still is) dangerous and those early people knew it. They protected themselves from it in the best way possible. They would'n't have had to protect themselves in an economical manner if Islam had been peaceful. But it wasn't. Unfortunately, they failed and Islam spread at the point of a sword. Now we all have to suffer because of it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I'm sorry, you're pretty extremist in your views.
Like just now, where you said that torturing and killing and starving muslims is the best way possible to protect oneself.

babloyi
I'm sorry, you're pretty extremist in your views. Like just now, where you said that torturing and killing and starving muslims is the best way possible to protect oneself.

Riiiight .. like sitting around a campfire with those maniacs and holding hands would have brought peace and freedom .... sure. (sarcasm). It's not extremist to protect oneself from an invading horde of mass murdering religious fanatics who had a 'take no prisoners' mentality. Playing nice with them wouldn't work ... so cutting off trade with them was the next step. Too bad it didnt' work. The only 'extremists' were Muhammad and his band of cutthroat death merchants.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You are a fine example of ignorance. You are scared of what you do not know so you make all these assumption of what these so called death merchants would do. Islam is the fastest growing reliwgon not because of deception but because it shows the light at the end of the tunnel.

DuecesxGeneral
Islam is the fastest growing reliwgon not because of deception but because it shows the light at the end of the tunnel.

WOW ... and you said I'm the one who is ignorant.
Save the taqiyya and kitman for someone less educated ... maybe they'll buy it.

Try telling that crap to the women in Iran who are barred from getting a higher education because the Islamic government doesn't want them 'too educated to marry men'. Can't have women being able to be independent or highly educated. Nope. Iranian women now banned from 77 University Degrees . Or try telling that to the girls in Afghanistan who just want to go to school and can't because the good-muslims are too busy bombing the schools the girls go to. Or try telling that to the women in Saudi Arabia who aren't even allowed out of the house to drive themselves to the doctors office. Or try telling that to the homosexual men in Iran who are put to death simply for being born gay. Or try telling that to the Christian pastor in Iran who got the death penalty for refusing to 'convert to Islam'. etc etc

All based on the corrupted and debunked Quran.

Islam is a light at the end of the tunnel ... my backend.

double post

reply to post by FlyersFan

Your ignorance of the religion shows again. So let me explain it to you:

They didn't "cut off trade". This was when the muslims probably numbered less than 50, living IN Mecca with their oppressors, being barred from buying food, having food and water shared with them, even from their family members, the married converts being divorced, any marriages being planned banned, slaves and weaker members being beaten and tortured and killed. The muslims had no "invading hordes". This was long before the allowance to fight against oppressors was revealed.

Your blind hatred of Islam and muslims sometimes trips up with all these "FACTS!!111!" and being FACTUAL and FACTS FACTS.

Another example of that, your constant repetition of that statement about Iran. Read your own link. While I feel no obligation to defend Iran, women aren't "banned from getting an eduaction". Some universities have been ordered to restrict some degrees for women. The huge number of women educated in these technical fields in Iran makes me very happy (over 75% according to your link).

You know how many women I saw studying computer science or electrical engineering in a major university in one year the UK? Zero. In the US? I think there were 2. In Egypt? About 20-30 in a class of a hundred. In Pakistan? about 15 in a class of 60. I am very glad that in these countries, despite what other hardships women might sometimes face, they're freed from the idiotic gendered ideas of what subjects it is cool to study and what it is not.

reply to post by babloyi

You know how many women I saw studying computer science or electrical engineering in a major university in one year the UK? Zero. In the US? I think there were 2.

What year was that?

My daughter (in the US) just finished her master's degree last year, and is now working as a Materials Science Engineer for a major corporation. I've no idea where you're getting your stats, but....

women are able to study WHATEVER THEY WANT TO in the U.S.A.

So, you're fine with Iran banning women from some fields of study? Why is that????

reply to post by wildtimes

Did I say I was fine with that? Besides, that isn't what is happening either. Read the link, please.

Congratulations to your daughter. I am sure women in the US are able to study whatever they want, but statistics show that they don't want to study technical fields. This is something of an off-topic, but I did a thread on this very subject a while back (where in the end I was hilariously enough accused of denying women the right to study whatever they want), and I encourage you to check it out if you are interested:
Is Popular Culture Destroying Women?

And for your information, it was in 2010-11.

babloyi
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Your ignorance of the religion shows again. So let me explain it to you:

They didn't "cut off trade". This was when the muslims probably numbered less than 50, living IN Mecca with their oppressors, being barred from buying food, having food and water shared with them, even from their family members, the married converts being divorced, any marriages being planned banned, slaves and weaker members being beaten and tortured and killed. The muslims had no "invading hordes". This was long before the allowance to fight against oppressors was revealed.

Your blind hatred of Islam and muslims sometimes trips up with all these "FACTS!!111!" and being FACTUAL and FACTS FACTS.

Another example of that, your constant repetition of that statement about Iran. Read your own link. While I feel no obligation to defend Iran, women aren't "banned from getting an eduaction". Some universities have been ordered to restrict some degrees for women. The huge number of women educated in these technical fields in Iran makes me very happy (over 75% according to your link).

You know how many women I saw studying computer science or electrical engineering in a major university in one year the UK? Zero. In the US? I think there were 2. In Egypt? About 20-30 in a class of a hundred. In Pakistan? about 15 in a class of 60. I am very glad that in these countries, despite what other hardships women might sometimes face, they're freed from the idiotic gendered ideas of what subjects it is cool to study and what it is not.

Im not sure where you were was this an online course? I work at a major university and half the undergraduates are women. also thought you should see a census report for 2012 note 45 percent of bachelors degrees for people from 25 to 39 are women.But yet its ok with you women not being allowed to take certain courses might i ask why?

The figures come from the Census Bureau’s annual Current Population Survey, and were released along with a series of reports taken from another ongoing canvass, the American Community Survey. One of those, examining major fields of study, shows that taken together, engineering and science are the most common areas for bachelor’s degrees, representing 34.9 percent of the total.

The persistence of men in those fields is waning, a significant trend given that engineers and people with science backgrounds tend to be in high demand, and have above-average incomes. Among college graduates 65 or older, only 23 percent of those with degrees in science or engineering majors are women; among people 40 to 64, the proportion of women rises to 36 percent; among those 25 to 39, 45.9 percent are women.

reply to post by dragonridr

It wasn't an online course.
It was a fairly major univeristy.
Why does the census put such strange qualifiers? "25-39"? What about the total? And I was talking about technical degrees.

When did I ever say I was okay with it? Do people even read what I say? Or just check the first line, start seeing red, and respond in a rage? Honestly, this is quite far removed from the topic at hand. I also encourage you to read that thread I linked to Wildtimes. Maybe you can respond there if you like.

babloyi
Your blind hatred of Islam and muslims

I don't hate muslims. I pity them. Just as I pity fundamentalists of any religion.
I hate the ignorance of religious fundamentalism. Just ask the christians in the religion forum.
And you story about innocent small numbers of muslims being supposedly poorly treated...
I'm not buying it. They were never innocent. They stole and killed from the start.
Source - 'Why I am not a Muslim' by Ibn Warriq' (someone you guys just hate for truth telling)

women aren't "banned from getting an eduaction". Some universities have been ordered to restrict some degrees for women.

Dead wrong. Women in Iran are now banned from getting 77 higher level degrees - engineering, medicine, etc - because the Islamic leadership in those countries don't want women to be educated and independent. If they are, then they won't want to marry the moron men who want to keep them down. That's EXACTLY WHY.

And as for your statement about women engineers .. my daughter is currently in college getting a chemical engineering degree and her dorm is full of females getting engineering and medical degrees. And there are no government restrictions in the USA against women getting higher end degrees based on ignorant archaic religious ideas about women being too educated to want to get married.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
I don't hate muslims. I pity them. Just as I pity fundamentalists of any religion.
I hate the ignorance of religious fundamentalism. Just ask the christians in the religion forum.
And you story about innocent small numbers of muslims being supposedly poorly treated...
I'm not buying it. They were never innocent. They stole and killed from the start.

Reality doesn't care if "you're not buying it". And your statement is the most ridiculously obvious display of your complete lack of any knowledge on the subject ever. I mean, I rolled my eyes whenever you capitalised your "FACTS!!11!" and so on in your indoctrinated way, but there it is, proof in grey and white (at least in my colour theme). This is what I meant by "extremist". Why don't you go ahead and asked your trustworthy author of this thread about this topic if you don't believe me? Or whatever, believe what you like. I mean, obviously, in your mind there is not even the possibility that muslims could've been nice guys who were oppressed. It is all EVIL EVIL KILLER MURDERER THIEF FACT (did I miss any of the ones from your word-repetition brainwashing?).
I'm sure ignorance is bliss.

FlyersFan
Dead wrong. Women in Iran are now banned from getting 77 higher level degrees - engineering, medicine, etc

My mistake. I was referring everyone to your link, believing it to be comprehensive. Here is another one:

Iranian university bans on women causes consternation
More than 30 universities have introduced new rules banning female students from almost 80 different degree courses.

Which is what I said. In 2012, due to the Iranian government under Ahmedinejad, some universities had been ordered to restrict some degrees for women. And medicine, which you so gleefully included, wasn't mentioned.

babloyi
I'm sure ignorance is bliss.

The mantra of those indoctrinated in organized religions ...

In 2012, due to the Iranian government under Ahmedinejad, some universities had been ordered to restrict some degrees for women. And medicine, which you so gleefully included, wasn't mentioned.

Downplay much?? 36 Universities. 77 Higher Degrees. Biology included (which is needed for different medical degrees). Also included - Engineering, nuclear physics, computer science, business, accounting, chemistry, mathematics, forestry, industrial engineering, english literature, english translation, hotel management, All based on Islam. All because the men don't want the women to be educated and independent of them.

New York Times
Iran Bans Womens University Degrees

Thirty-six Iranian universities are participating in the ban, which will make many higher-education classes exclusive to men as of next academic year, the Telegraph reported.

Telegraph

Senior clerics in Iran's theocratic regime have become concerned about the social side-effects of rising educational standards among women, including declining birth and marriage rates.

Oh ... and the women had been outscoring the men in tests and doing better in school.
The jealous neanderthals couldn't handle it. So they banned the women from school.
'light at the end of the tunnel' ... yeah right.

babloyi
in your mind there is not even the possibility that muslims could've been nice guys who were oppressed.

in reality the muslims weren't the nice guys who were oppressed.
but in your mind, I'm sure they always will be ...

reply to post by FlyersFan

FlyersFan
The mantra of those indoctrinated in organized religions ...

And seeing your statements, obviously not exclusive organised religion, but whatever you were indoctrinated with as well:
Constantly caught out in a lack of in-depth knowledge- check
Constant repetition of stock (programmed?) phrases- check
Denial and refusal to accept when confronted with a truth contrary to what they've been programmed with- check

About the universities, are you even reading what you're linking? It is exactly as I said.
How am I downplaying anything? Should I asked you "exaggerate much?" Women aren't banned from school (or university or college). THAT statement is categorically false.

Again, not that I have any reason to need to defend Iran, but with 90% of degrees still open to women in those specific universities (with the remaining universities having no such ban), and a certain number of degrees closed to men now, what you're saying is absolute BS. The percentage of women in Iranian universities STILL outnumber the men in Iranian universities (and the women in US universities as well, hilariously enough).

babloyi
Women aren't banned from school (or university or college). THAT statement is categorically false.

That was from what was previously said about Afghanistan and places other than Iran. Girls schools are blown up and girls shot for wanting to learn to read. All based on religion.

The truth is that in Iran the major paying job fields are now being closed to women because they won't be able to get the education for them. No biology classes?? That means no medical degree. Engineering? Nope! Only men can get it. And it's all based on RELIGION.

As I said ... this isn't 'light at the end of the tunnel' as the previous poster said.
It's just ignorance based on religion.
It would be just as bad if Christian fundamentalists ran a country.

As for the rest of your personal attack deflection ... I'm not going to bother with it.
It's silly and irrelevant (and frankly you described your muslim buddies who post here)