A Near Death Experience - Purgatory

reply to post by Darkblade71

Originally posted by Darkblade71
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

That is if you view Jesus as God.

So it is not irrelevant really.
To someone who doesn't, but does understand that Jesus did live, it is a worth while thought to ponder.

Not all NDE's are filled with Jesus pulling someone out.
Some have other things, other people, other experiences.

So which ones are correct?

What a person believes deep down in their subconscious is what they seem to experience to some extent.
After hearing, reading and talking with many people who have had NDE's, I have noticed this.

Some people have loved ones there, some have Jesus, some have hell, some have a void of darkness, some have tunnels that lead to strange lands, some have nothing but coldness and no recollection at all.

It is not all Jesus.

This relates to Ian MacCormack's NDE, who was an atheist and didn't give any thought to God or Jesus prior to his death, but the "problem" with Jesus ie: where it's all 100% pure Jesus.. is that there is no darkness in him or in God (same diff) and that in the process of achieving reconciliation and atonement and transcending the duality and the paradox of sin and evil, yet without making any compromise with it - while resolving the problem at one level, it might have opened up a duality at another, thus creating the very thing (hell) it was meant to obliterate. Then again I'm sure that God has considered this angle... but it still concerns me a little bit, this idea of an all-good God relative to whom it's possible to be separated from, in darkness, and even as a habituation of thought, without end. It would almost be funny, if it wasn't so grave.. and a little scary, oh Lord hear this concern and prayer not just for me but for my fellow man, thank you.

Best Regards, ..

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan


He can say he didn't give any thought to it, but I bet he did, or he wouldn't be calling himself an atheist.
I bet somewhere in the back of his mind, deep down, he was scared of this thought,and it came out in his death.

Hard to say really. It is just a thought I had about it.

reply to post by Darkblade71

Who do you mean, Jesus, or Ian MacCormack?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Ian.

hard to call yourself an atheist without having a thought about if or if not there is a god, just by the title alone you have thought about it.

To call ones self an atheist just by the nature of what it means, means you deny the existence of a creator, at least that is how I see it.

reply to post by Darkblade71

It was a heck of a testimony though, even more powerful imo than Angie Fenimore's from the OP.

About the New Creation he was shown, the way it was done, with him then seeing or being shown his mother and her love as worthy to go back for, would seem to indicate that THIS is the creation with the light spread out everywhere that God wishes to perfect and realize ie: that God isn't about to dump it in favor of a new one, and that mankind and this world is included and integral to the Big Picture or Great Work that is being worked out.

I just don't like this idea of eternal darkness or hell, not because I'm afraid (as a Jesus lover/Jesus freak), but because of my compassion for all people. Therefore, I would like to see Jesus go busting in there, and process the whole lot of them, somehow. Purgatory then or limbo would be absolutely essential for that kind of processing by which a return path to God can be made possible for one and all, whether straight to heaven or via reincarnation.

That said there are some very very wicked people in the world....what to do with them if you're God and there is no escape from a just judgement..?

It's a real conundrum, and one that Jesus appears to have only partially solved if there is such a dump as hell or eternal darkness... hmmm....

Originally posted by NewAgeMan


I just don't like this idea of eternal darkness or hell, not because I'm afraid (as a Jesus lover/Jesus freak), but because of my compassion for all people. Therefore, I would like to see Jesus go busting in there, and process the whole lot of them, somehow. Purgatory then or limbo would be absolutely essential for that kind of processing by which a return path to God can be made possible for one and all, whether straight to heaven or via reincarnation.

That said there are some very very wicked people in the world....what to do with them if you're God and there is no escape from a just judgement..?

It's a real conundrum, and one that Jesus appears to have only partially solved if there is such a dump as hell or eternal darkness... hmmm....

Didnt jesus say of his own torturers, "forgive them for they know not what they do".
If god is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, is omnipotent and omniscient, creator of all things, isnt it logical to conclude that he has dominion over "the eternal flames of damnation". Even in purgatory is it not possible to renounce your sins and ask for forgiveness from god. Now that you mention it, do the burning flames of eternal damnation and suffering sound like the creation of an all loving god?
I can imagine some people will see eternal darkness as quite appealing.
There are people that like to hurt themselves and others, they enjoy suffering(dont ask me why) wouldnt eternal suffering seem like heaven to them?
But on the subject of suffering...
In life I have learned(only through suffering) how to have empathy for others, how to understand the struggles of others. How to avoid hurting others. And through seeing the struggle of others I have learned that much of my suffering has barely been suffering at all.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I didn't like the part about people being there for what seemed like forever and that they gave up hope. That doesn't seem like a very loving God to do that. But then again .. look at Earth ... God doesn't seem to get involved much here either.

He's also the God who created Hell. A place where people are there for literally forever, and have no hope of ever not being tortured for the eternity of their existence.

And they only have 60-80 Earth years on average to figure out how to live exactly according to his rules (if they even hear those rules) and believe in him with all their heart (if they even hear of his existence) or he will send you to a prison where you're lit on fire and stabbed for all of eternity. Most of those being tortured were perfectly pleasant people with hopes and dreams and children, but they were Hindu, so eternal torture for them and their children.

Please tell me what is loving about that?

I have have some hope that there is an afterlife, but I think anyone who hopes for a Christian afterlife needs to reevaluate what that means.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by OneManArmy

 

As attitudes have changed, so has the churches stance to remain relevant. Even to the point that the pope said just the other day that "who is he to judge gays" The church changes with the times, it might be a bit slow(arrogance of the leadership does that), but it does change.

Except that the church does not change its doctrine and core message. They may have a different way of saying it today than in 1960 or 1500, but it's still the same thing. Why did the Pope say "who is he to judge gays?" Because the church has always taught that it is the act of sexual immorality that is the sin, not the fact that one is gay. We don't burn witches anymore, thankfully, but not because the church has decided that witchcraft is okay.

Now, you may have a point about other offshoots from the Roman Catholic church -- on the next episode of the Loudmouth show (Sunday night at 7:30 Eastern on ATS Radio, lol) I have a go at the American Episcopal church which, while trying to "stay with the times", has actually begun to jettison orthodox Christian doctrine, such as the resurrection and Christ's divinity -- they are losing mass amounts of members as a result, but they're still doing it, in an effort to become a "modern church."

But the Roman Catholic church, which points to Apostolic succession as evidence that it is "the" church that Christ founded at Pentecost (something I personally take issue with, but...), does not create new doctrine, it just clarifies what it already has, so it is unlikely to fall into the trap that the Episcopalians have, and it's why many former Episcopalians are now Catholic.

......Really??? I though this was a thread about NDE's.... Not the Bloody Roman Catholic Chruch...

Originally posted by evictiongnostic

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I didn't like the part about people being there for what seemed like forever and that they gave up hope. That doesn't seem like a very loving God to do that. But then again .. look at Earth ... God doesn't seem to get involved much here either.

He's also the God who created Hell. A place where people are there for literally forever, and have no hope of ever not being tortured for the eternity of their existence.

And they only have 60-80 Earth years on average to figure out how to live exactly according to his rules (if they even hear those rules) and believe in him with all their heart (if they even hear of his existence) or he will send you to a prison where you're lit on fire and stabbed for all of eternity. Most of those being tortured were perfectly pleasant people with hopes and dreams and children, but they were Hindu, so eternal torture for them and their children.

Please tell me what is loving about that?

I have have some hope that there is an afterlife, but I think anyone who hopes for a Christian afterlife needs to reevaluate what that means.

That was funny!

And because it cannot be true, the doctrine of salvation held by much of Christendom must be false.

Good post.

Something has obviously been lost in translation.

reply to post by OneManArmy

No one that reads the new testament is reading the words of Jesus, nor are they reading the words of god.

Your argument falls flat on it's face simply because there isn't a SHRED of evidence to support your claim.

That is the reason WHY those who make this claim never back it up with any evidence.

In numerous NDE's, Jesus refers to the Bible as "my word" or "my book".

CJ's Testimony of a Face to Face Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ

This quote is the key point: "You don't believe my word the Bible."

"It's My responsibility as God to protect My word for you."

Dr. Richard Eby was a professor and obstetrician who fell off a second story balcony in Chicago and hit his head and died instantly and found himself in Paradise. When he came back to a bloodless corpse in the hospital morgue, the athiest Doctor refused to believe he was alive and told him to 'shut up and don't give me any of that #' because he knew that Eby had been taken into the hospital as a totally bloodless dead body.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesus, where am I？I gasped！ Suddenly in a new body in a new place with new life, I was ecstatically joyful: no pain, no tears, no sorrow, no memory.

Instantly, before I could complete my query, that same Voice in a tone of gentle thunder echoed within my head:　"Didn’t you read my book？"

　　He was speaking to me (in fact, in me) with a speed greater than lightning, and in a language of sweet purity unlike anything that an earthly tongue could utter. I gasped again. I had HIS MIND, impossible as it seemed！ Every word clearly meant exactly what was being said. We seemed to have a joint mind: I would ask, and He would answer. (The speed of this communication in such a MIND is hard to describe in human terms. Perchance I can now liken it to a printed page on which the questions being typed have the answers typed upon them, line upon line, at the same time, instantly.)

　　Yeshua began His answer: "If you had read My Book you would have known all the answers."

"In fact, everything that My children need to know about how God thinks and works and judges and rewards, either before or after the Cross, is already in My Book. That is why I commanded mankind to ‘engrave My Words upon their hearts,’ and to pass them along from generation to generation. I wanted everyone to hear and know just Who I AM, the Messiah, their one hope of Salvation, their Most High God."

Dr. Richard Eby dies, visits heaven, and returns with a startling message

Originally posted by evictiongnostic
He's also the God who created Hell. A place where people are there for literally forever, and have no hope of ever not being tortured for the eternity of their existence.

He's also the God who created Heaven.

But, He will never FORCE anyone to go there.

The choice is yours and yours alone.

"I'm a gentleman Nick, I'll never force myself on you or anyone.

Nick, what would be more unjust and unfair, for me to steal you at the moment of your death and force you to live in my presence and in my will for all eternity.

Hell on the other hand is a place where you'll be completely free from all of my "though shalt nots"... FOREVER." The Encounter @ 49m 42s

"Nobody goes into hell blindfolded. In one way or another, I've revealed myself to everyone."

The Encounter @ 51m 40s

She describes spirit prison, where you await judgement, others may go to spirit paradise where they rest after a sort and also await judgement. Fits LDS Mormon doctrine to a tee.

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Your argument falls flat on it's face simply because there isn't a SHRED of evidence to support your claim.

That is the reason WHY those who make this claim never back it up with any evidence.

LMAO. Said the pot to the kettle.

Like there isnt a shred of evidence to say that Jesus ever existed as a real person, same can be said of Moses.
Its also debateable if Muhammed ever really existed.
You provide the testimony of Christians as evidence of Jesus's existence. Shame on you.
The testimony of individuals does not constitute proof, its is merely circumstantial, hearsay doesnt stand up in a court of law and nor should it here. Whose to say that those making these testimonies dont have an ulterior motive?
Now can you please provide some proof of your own?, lol
Because you own argument is lying very much on its face right now.

Originally posted by evictiongnostic
Please tell me what is loving about that?

I can't. I simply can't.

This woman committed suicide because she was totally self absorbed. Depression happens if the false self is strong. Ego believes everything is about them - it is the 'poor me' attitude.
In my opinion after watching the video (thanks NewAgeMan) she was so absorbed in her own suffering in life that when she died that she carried on being absorbed in the thoughts of despair. Thoughts is all she was left with because that was where her attention went in life - so she was asked 'Is this what you want?' - meaning 'do you like living this way only surrounded by darkness (thoughts about how bad everything is) - or would you like to see the light?'

I have read another account of a NDE (not suicide) and the man said it was just darkness. In the darkness, he thought there is something missing - and as soon as the word 'light' happened there was light. It seems that the despairing might not be able to do this as they are lost in thoughts.
Maybe all that is required is to just remember that the light dispels the darkness.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I had a member on my paranormal thread that had some extremely fantastic dreams that I analyzed for him. One was about Purgatory.

I thought you might find it interesting:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Timical's dream of Purgatory:
I was standing on a dirt path and there were walls all around. The place felt very much like a labyrinth. There was no roof, just an evening sky when transitioning between daylight and nightfall. The temperature was mild, not cold and not hot. Just very neutral. The walls and structures were a brownish off white, as though they were covered with dirt that floats in the air that then settles on the structures. Everything was a mix between being brand new and in ruins, it all just seemed some what "worn in" and most of the walls were linked together by archways that led to different areas.
I again had my escort with me, it was similar to the one in the heaven dream as it had no sexual orientation. It gave me a small green orb which I then carried with me as I walked around. We went down the path a little bit, passing by various paths some of which had broken archways over them. Down the path, not too far from where we started, there was an opening in the wall to my left under an archway that a longer path than any other I had seen previously extended from.
There was fountain at the end of the path which was what convinced to me to that way down that path. Now, laying everywhere on the ground, excluding the original path, there were people propped up against each other and leaning on the walls. It was clear as to how old everyone was and their sex. However, everyone was pure white, including their clothes. They possessed no color what so ever.
We walked up to the fountain, which was not operational and contained no water, and then looked around the area at all of the people. There was a man sitting on the ground leaning on the fountain. My escort told me to give him the orb to know who he is. So upon this instruction I bent down and held the orb in front of the man not really having idea of what to do.
The orb then floated into the man's chest and I had vision that consisted of that man's life and why he was there. When the vision ended the orb left his chest and came back into my hand. I thought, "Wow that was awesome, let's do some more!" My escorted laughed and held up its hand as though to convey for me to continue.

I looked around and surveyed the area. All around the fountain were rooms missing the walls facing the pathway and fountain, all of them had a roof. In all these rooms, were multiples of people just laying around. Off to the right of the fountain in a large, dark room I felt a very strong presence so I went to investigate.
There was a.... grim reaper type of entity standing in the corner holding a sword and shield(just a side note, there were several of these "grim reapers" randomly spaced out all over the place that seemed to just be keeping watch).
My escort told me to not be concerned with them as they were "on duty", given my military training I understand this fully and know not to disturb them. In this room, as with all the others, the ground is covered in hay(not sure if this is meaningful).
There was a certain man leaning against the wall that I was interested in so I walked over and placed the orb in his chest. He was a bad man. A murderer and thief of all sorts. I was not pleased with him and was glad he was stuck there. I left the room in disgust and walked to the area behind the fountain.

There was a woman on the ground that I felt pity for, but was not sure why. After placing the orb in her chest I saw that she was married to an "unlovable" man. He was simply, just not a good husband. She left him and ran off with her lover in the middle of the night to escape her life and start a new. They both died on a boat before they reached where ever they were trying to escape to. I felt very sad for her and wanted to help so I took her by the hand and she became animated. She was instantly crying and thanking me at the same time for helping her.
We took about three steps in looking for the way out of there before we were rushed by two guards who then took her back to her resting place.
My guide tried to tell me that we were not there to help these people as they have already made their choices.
I was very sad that I could not help this woman as I feel it was well with in her rights to do what she did.
My escort then put its arm around me as we walked and said that this was all for now and that now we should leave. I then awoke..... still sad for woman.

My analysis for this dream will be continued on the next page, due to running out of characters...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
My Dream Analysis for Timical on the post above:

The dirt path is representative of situations where people have been less than honorable and may have acted in a devious manner. The walls having no roofs symbolizes there is no barrier between the consciousness, mentality, and beliefs of the people here.
The sky transitioning between daylight and night fall indicates this place is like a “twilight zone” where souls go to contemplate on the bad choices they made during their lifetime. The labyrinth indicates their desire to get to the center of their problem during contemplation. It also means they many feel lost with no way out.

The souls in this place are confronted by limitations, obstacles, and boundaries obstructing their progress (dirty walls). The dirty walls and structures in this place are symbolic of the “dirty souls” who have contaminated it.
Although the walls signify limitations, obstacles, and boundaries, they are connected together by archways which represent new areas of opportunity. If the soul realizes its errors during contemplation, they may possibly be able to move into one of the other rooms leading to the fountain (which represents Jesus). Each room seems to represent different levels of sin. Archways also represent our support system, which are God and his angels.

Your guide handed you a green orb. Orbs symbolize truth, and a sudden understanding or realization. The color of green corresponds with the heart chakra. The heart governs passion, love, and healing.
You held the orb in front of a man and it entered the man’s chest (looked into his heart), and gave you the realization of his life and why he was there.

The broken archways you saw when you started walking down the path symbolize the support system (God and angels) have broken away in these areas.

You came upon a wall that had an opening. This symbolizes an escape from the boundaries, limitations, and obstacles that leads down this long path. The path had a water fountain at the end, but had no water. Jesus is called “the fountain of the living waters”, or “the fountain of life”. This fountain represents Jesus, but had nothing to offer the people here to “quench their thirst for knowledge”. They had to help themselves through deep contemplation on their life.

You noticed people sitting on the ground, and leaning on the walls. They were pure white. This seems to indicate souls who recognized the error of their ways during contemplation in the other rooms. They purified their souls from sin, indicated by the color of white. Now they wait for “judgment day”.

The rooms around the fountain had no walls (barriers) to the fountain, but they had a roof, which is a barrier sheltering their consciousness and beliefs. The people here will have to break through their current belief system before they can free themselves of sin.

One of the rooms was dark with what you called “grim reaper” type beings standing guard, although they weren’t actually grim reapers. Their sword and shield represent strength and authority and physical protection from the bad souls escaping.
The hay on the ground represents the necessity of hard work to get their souls cleansed. This room is occupied with souls who have sinned on a much darker scale. You left this room in disgust, and entered another room behind the fountain.

You took pity on a woman in this room and tried to help her, but your guide told you that you couldn’t because she had already made her choice (during her life on earth). She must realize her mistakes through soul-contemplation on her own so she can grow in spiritual wisdom, without anyone’s help.

Your guide then tells you it is time to go. He sends your spirit back to your body and you wake up.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
This woman committed suicide because she was totally self absorbed. Depression happens if the false self is strong.

This woman easily could easily have chemical imbalances. Depression happens when the body chemistry is off. And having clinical depression doesn't make a person evil or self absorbed. It's a medical condition.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
This woman committed suicide because she was totally self absorbed. Depression happens if the false self is strong.

This woman easily could easily have chemical imbalances. Depression happens when the body chemistry is off. And having clinical depression doesn't make a person evil or self absorbed. It's a medical condition.

edit on 8/10/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

That is what the pharmaceutical companies would like us to believe.
Being separate from the light is what causes life to be uncomfortable, the mind takes one's attention away from what is real now.
It is the mind that one wants to escape and this woman found that death was no escape and was shown that what she was missing was the light of consciousness which is always present.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It's a medical condition.

That is what the pharmaceutical companies would like us to believe.

No. That's reality. Autoimmune diseases and neurological diseases and chemical imbalances
cause depression. It's a medical condition. It's just as much a medical issue as cancer is.