New research shows crustaceans feel pain.

Originally posted by benrl
what do you suppose a lion feels about ripping the legs off a gazelle?

We are apart of nature, not separate from it.

I don't mean to go off topic here but lion's actually suffocate their prey before ripping their legs off: Lionlamb.us. But I get what you mean, they still suffer some before moving on to animal heaven.
However, I would argue that we are different from lions, or any other animal for that matter. That empathy, it can be a curse and a blessing at the same time.

Hey OP, very interesting thread. I'm actually not surprised by this study. I've heard it said before that sea creatures don't feel pain or much of it but I always found that hard to believe. Thanks for this info.

But do they have "ouch" in their nervous systems?
Human pain, and higher animal pain is quite definable and to put it simply, it hurts.
Does pain in lower animals equate to a similar form of suffering?
Or is there just a reaction of negative reinforcement? A reaction without the hurt?

reply to post by benrl


I agree with that view but because we have brains and can reason we should demand from us a higher level of respect and care not to behave like we didn't know better.

Originally posted by Garkiniss

The way I see it; if a vegan only eats veggies due to health concerns, I'm fine with that. If they do it because the "poor cute animals are being killed", then they're idiots. It's like, you kill living things all the time. Come down off your high horse and have some of this delicious cow and pig.

edit on 8-8-2013 by Garkiniss because: (no reason given)

Are you f-ing kidding me? If you don't have compassion for innocent beings you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for human. Oh, so cows are the same as a carrot huh? Ok, so I guess you're fine with eating children too. Same thing, right? LOL. If you can't tell the difference between looking in the eyes of a sentient being and the head of a cabbage, there is something seriously wrong with you. And yes, plants feel pain too, but if you really believe that there is no difference between them and animals that's fine. Just realize the fact that you're killing more plants by eating animals than you would if you just ate the plants. Each pound of meat takes vast amounts more plant matter to create it, yet you don't get as much nutrients and energy from the meat as you would if you ate the vegetation to begin with.

Christ, I can't believe people still think like this. So much for evolution

Originally posted by benrl
what do you suppose a lion feels about ripping the legs off a gazelle?

We are apart of nature, not separate from it.

Does not mean we have to be barbaric in our use of other creatures. We have the means to humanely use them, and if we choose not to act humanely then we're one step away from a war criminal. in my opinion.

Originally posted by spacedoubt
But do they have "ouch" in their nervous systems?
Human pain, and higher animal pain is quite definable and to put it simply, it hurts.
Does pain in lower animals equate to a similar form of suffering?
Or is there just a reaction of negative reinforcement? A reaction without the hurt?

What exactly is pain? That's a hard question to answer from the outside. Even with humans, theshholds vary greatly. Elwood showed there was a level of trade-off with the hermit crabs as they would still put up with some shock if the residence was one they preferred. Without the ability to "be" a crab, we might really never know what exactly they feel.

Most definitions I've found are centered on a response in the brain and nervous system. With studies like this coming out we might need a new definition. According to Elwood, the memory of the shock and avoidance is enough to define their reactions as painful.

To those people saying that plants feel pain, there is no good evidence of that. Crustaceans still need their nervous system to feel pain. Plants dont have any. It is hard to determine whether an organism feels pain, because merely reacting to stimuli does not prove much. Even bacteria does that.

en.wikipedia.org...(paranormal)

The idea that some invertebrates can feel pain is nothing new. I think animal rights laws should apply to them, too. Better safe than sorry.

Originally posted by smileyface64261

Are you f-ing kidding me? If you don't have compassion for innocent beings you're nothing but a pathetic excuse for human. Oh, so cows are the same as a carrot huh? Ok, so I guess you're fine with eating children too. Same thing, right?

First off: Thanks for proving my point.

Second: There's a big difference between cannibalism, and understanding one's place in nature. How is a cow more "innocent" than a carrot? Is it because you don't understand a carrot's thought process or its ability to "feel" so it doesn't matter to you? By that rationale I'm guessing you're okay with outsourced slavery abroad because you don't speak Chinese or Indonesian. GMAFB.

LOL. If you can't tell the difference between looking in the eyes of a sentient being and the head of a cabbage, there is something seriously wrong with you. And yes, plants feel pain too, but if you really believe that there is no difference between them and animals that's fine. Just realize the fact that you're killing more plants by eating animals than you would if you just ate the plants. Each pound of meat takes vast amounts more plant matter to create it, yet you don't get as much nutrients and energy from the meat as you would if you ate the vegetation to begin with.

Yet substituting animal meat for plants counters that affect. It's the checks and balances effect.

If everyone stopped eating meat today, imagine how much vegetable consumption would spike tomorrow. The animal population, you know, the one that is now growing larger and larger because it isn't being consumed, would be eating more and more vegetation, and then there are the 7 billion people on this planet consuming those plants as well. Great logic.

I'm all for the humane treatment of animals. I don't like the idea that my burger came from some muddy grassless farm where cows were packed into tiny holding pens, but I also don't deny the fact that human beings are omnivores.

Christ, I can't believe people still think like this. So much for evolution

Yeah, so much for evolution. You do realize that mankind, evolutionarily speaking, owes its lineage to meat consumption, don't you? There's a direct connection to the amounts of meat the first humans ate to the increased size of the brain in the genus Homo.

So from all of us bacon eaters out in the world... you're welcome.

Originally posted by Maslo
To those people saying that plants feel pain, there is no good evidence of that. Crustaceans still need their nervous system to feel pain. Plants dont have any. It is hard to determine whether an organism feels pain, because merely reacting to stimuli does not prove much. Even bacteria does that.

en.wikipedia.org...(paranormal)

The idea that some invertebrates can feel pain is nothing new. I think animal rights laws should apply to them, too. Better safe than sorry.

edit on 9/8/13 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

Wrong. The suppression of plant/pain research has been going on for years. No one wants to think about the fact that in order for one life to continue, something else's life must first die, and possibly suffer in the process. This instinct to reduce suffering, or at the very least, reduce guilt about killing another living thing harkens back to primitive humans and the desire to inflict a "quick death" to their food or foes.

The truth is plants initiate a massive hormone and chemical barrage internally when they suffer any kind of injury. This response is akin to the nerve response and endorphin release when an animal is injured. The similarities cannot be disputed. Even aspirin, which suppresses pain in animals, can also suppress the pain in plants.

When plants are attacked or damaged the chemical processes inside the plant go to red alert to address the situation. In the case of insect attack, plants produce specific compounds that produce insect gastro-intestinal distress. These defense compounds are triggered by a hormone, jasmonic acid, which acts like a shot of pain, kick-starting the plants defenses. But new research shows that just as aspirin can stop pain in animals, it can also stop the pain response in plants, suppressing their defensive response to attack.

The function of aspirin in animals is to block the production of prostaglandin, which triggers swelling and pain. Aspirin binds to the active site of the enzyme that is critical to producing prostaglandin. It essentially renders the enzyme dead and prevents prostaglandin from building up and creating a reaction. In plants, aspirin blocks the production of jasmonic acid by similarly binding a critical enzyme. Jasmonic acid is a hormone that is made when plants are in distress. This pain signals the production of plant-defense compounds, warning the plant that it is under attack. It can also volitalize and warn nearby plants, a chain reaction that's like a warning signal to other plants.

Published in The Journal of Biological Chemistry

Authored by plant biologists Zhiqiang Pan of Arizona State University; Bilal Camara of the Institut de Biologie Moleculaire des Plantes, Strasbourg, France; Harold W. Gardner of the United States Department of Agriculture; and Ralph A. Backhaus of Arizona State University.

Who would be surprised at this "revelation?
Pleasure and its opposite, pain, are necessary components for a living system be it an elephant or an single-celled animal to survive. Rudimentary forms of biological intelligence. The use of pain is a shortcut to doing the right reaction to a stimuli rather than the creature having the particular knowledge about the experience to say, "Oh, I just know that is going to hurt so I'm not going to (touch, eat, or ignore) do it,

How much money did that research cost?

reply to post by Garkiniss

TextThe truth is plants initiate a massive hormone and chemical barrage internally when they suffer any kind of injury. This response is akin to the nerve response and endorphin release when an animal is injured. The similarities cannot be disputed. Even aspirin, which suppresses pain in animals, can also suppress the pain in plants.

As I said, just because there is a response does not mean plants feel pain. It is not unexpected that many of mechanisms activated during tissue damage are similar in plants and humans. And nothing in your link says that plants do feel pain. For all we know, pain perception requires a nervous system, and contrary to humans and crustaceans, plants dont even have one.

Here is another recent article about this topic, this time about fish:

phys.org...

reply to post by Aliensun

TextHow much money did that research cost?

Not nearly enough. They are not researching whether crustaceans have mechanism similar to pain, that is established well. They are trying to answer whether crustaceans actually *feel* pain. That is an important and still unresolved question. It is certainly not as simple as you think it is.

30 years ago I walked past a open factory door in an industrial estate and saw a huge cage of lobster /crayfish
lowered into must have been boiling water and those animals screamed and they where screaming and I knew 1%

Originally posted by Maslo

As I said, just because there is a response does not mean plants feel pain. It is not unexpected that many of mechanisms activated during tissue damage are similar in plants and humans. And nothing in your link says that plants do feel pain. For all we know, pain perception requires a nervous system, and contrary to humans and crustaceans, plants dont even have one.

A negative and positive response does equal pain and pleasure. Just because we don't yet understand exactly how that pain works, it doesn't make it any less true.

When an insect attacks a plant, that plant immediately begins producing chemicals as a reaction. Those chemicals were released because something in that plant begans saying "Uh oh... that's not good, that's not good." The same thing happens with people. You get hurt, your brain responds/reacts, and you take steps to remove yourself from harm's way and reduce the pain.

Plants resond to touch, to sound vibration, and to emotion. They react to threats and environmental changes, just like animals do. There's a brain there. Is it a literal "brain" like you or I have? No. It's more like cell-to-cell communication, but it exists. Plants even have 3 different forms of memory: short term memory, immune memory, and even transgenerational memory.

Originally posted by my1percent
30 years ago I walked past a open factory door in an industrial estate and saw a huge cage of lobster /crayfish
lowered into must have been boiling water and those animals screamed and they where screaming and I knew 1%

Actually that "scream" wasn't a scream. It was the sound of steam being released between the meat and the carapace (or shell). Lobsters don't have vocal chords and are, therefore, incapable of producing sound.

Though I'm sure it hurt like hell.

reply to post by Garkiniss


Ha Ha Ha are you sure ? I hope you are and this world is not as cruel as it seems . I mean it , cheers 15 1%
I Just felt that , of course because we feel somin dose;nt mean it's true yehaa
No seriouse your the first person to offer me an explaination of that noise I heard .thanks for that lol ch

Originally posted by benrl
what do you suppose a lion feels about ripping the legs off a gazelle?

When a few men start justifying their actions by comparing themselves to animals, that's where devolution starts. What's next? Should infanticide be accepted morally, because "male lions will often kill lion cubs"?

Your comment was sickening.

Originally posted by kmb08753
Robert Elwood highlights new research, at Behaviour 2013 meeting in the UK, showing that crustaceans feel pain.

Finally someone made a scientific study about it. S&F, OP.

reply to post by kmb08753


Hmmm...Lobster institute?

Neither insects nor lobsters have brains.

Hmmm, ok.

Lobsters may also be killed or rendered insensate immediately before boiling by a stab into the brain, in the belief that this will stop suffering. However, a lobster's brain operates from not one but several ganglia and disabling only the frontal ganglion does not usually result in death or unconsciousness.

You can find that information above listed here in the Wiki which is actually a fairly interesting read since I know very little about the tasty beasties.

Did you know they can get to 60 years of age? 44lbs was the largest one recorded, I wonder who got to eat that one?