The state of the world today is the church's fault.

I want to begin this thread by declaring myself a christian. I am not morally superior to anyone, moreover I am worse than most christians b/c I have a past involving the occult which i was (luckily, gratefully) brought out of by the Lord. I am a part-time evangelist, I have my own youtube channel where I call out ppl that I think deserve it, (whenever my depression allows me to post) and I have even forsaken (mostly) the desires of this world.I smoke, I sometimes swear, and I generally have a poor view of humanity as a species. I say these qualifiers not to try to impress anyone, but b/c I want everyone to know that this is not a troll thread.

It's hopefully, in some small matter of degree, a wake up call to those not tainted by this world.

It is OUR fault what is going on in the world today. Not "their" fault. Not "the times" fault, not even God's timetable.

Ours.

How can I say this? Bear with me while I share some facts with you, that point out scripturally why I say this.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(Greed) The world HAS prevailed against the church. Morever the church has stopped moving forward against the world. Gates are not offensive weapons, gates are defensive positions. Bulwarks to hold back the enemy, but the church has stopped moving in a forward direction, she has sided with the world. She has sold out the Lord for 30 pieces of silver.

Matt 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

(Apathy) The church is ineffectual b/c the church is not different than the world. The world calls the church out on it's standard of behavior, and guess what? The world is RIGHT! I say they are right to condemn, call out what they see, and we are too stiff-necked to take the reality check that they MIGHT have a point. Doesn't the bible say to "Go out ye into all the world.."? Yet we don't, we bring ppl to PASTORS so they can witness, so we don't HAVE TO. We are not "persecuted for His namesake", we diffuse our responsibility. The bible says to "feed the hungry", NOT cut a check. We think by acting the way the world does, we absolve ourselves of responsibility, but instead we only share in her lack of moral compass. We remove ourselves, our light, our HUMAN TOUCH from the needy, just as the world does, but b/c of our motives, our "intent" we feel "more holy".

In other words we don't CARE.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

(Hypocrisy) I'm amazed at this one. I'm amazed of the sheer ignorance involved. I am not pro-homosexual. I do not believe that homosexuals should be allowed to "marry". Call it whatever else you want, civil unions, whatever, but not marriage. Having said THAT, however how can christians yell, kick & scream about the abomination of homosexuality when adultery is so prevalent among "the faithful"? This isn't MY interpretation, it's in the bible that those that commit homosexual acts and those that "fool around" are in the same boat! Why should the world take you seriously? Your vows, both to God & your spouse, mean NOTHING! And yet you care about "the world & their souls"? Pfftt.

1st Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(Idolatry) We have replaced God with our own version of god; we have replaced God with man. We do not hold OUR OWN accountable, and YET expect the world to do just that with their own!



Someone tell me why this man still has a church? Or even his son, since his father taught him? He DENIES JESUS AS MESSIAH! HE SHOULD BE RUN OUT ON A RAIL! And yet he's still there, and many like him have said things just as bad, (or worse) and yet we beat those that disagree with "touch not my annointed". They have their own tv shows! They're on tv, touted as "men of god"!

They have nothing to do with God!

If you want the world to take your & His message seriously, you have to start with YOU first! You have to believe what you SAY, you have to LIVE what you say, you can't just pay lip-service to it. The world sees it, the world knows it, and the world calls you out on it (and rightly so) and yet you get offended.

May I say BE OFFENDED?!

Otherwise, the declining immorality & "the love of many will wax cold" is indeed OUR FAULT. And hence, why I made this thread in the first place.

reply to post by schadenfreude

It is OUR fault what is going on in the world today. Not "their" fault. Not "the times" fault, not even God's timetable.

First off, I think this is a good thread, and good OP. However, I'm a little hazy on who "we" is? You start by saying you are a Christian...and use appropriate scripture to shore up your valid points....

but I'm not clear on who you're holding accountable. Christians? Humanity? Or individuals who don't walk the talk?

Anyway, S/F

i was just thinking about something along this same line yesterday (and the day before and the day before that). the conclusions i reached were different, however. For example: Christians have fought tooth and nail, every single decision that was made that would change the face of our nation (the usa) from one that was family oriented and successful, into one that was self and government-oriented and enslaved. And when I say we fought, i mean we voted, we picketed, we protested, we gave speeches and sermons, we warned, pleaded, cajoled, and it still went straight down the tubes. This was not planned by man, it was planned by God.

Ever read THE VISION by David Wilkerson? If not, you should.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

It is OUR fault what is going on in the world today. Not "their" fault. Not "the times" fault, not even God's timetable.

First off, I think this is a good thread, and good OP. However, I'm a little hazy on who "we" is? You start by saying you are a Christian...and use appropriate scripture to shore up your valid points....

but I'm not clear on who you're holding accountable. Christians? Humanity? Or individuals who don't walk the talk?

Anyway, S/F

I'm holding "churchianity" responsible. Genuine Christians are already doing these things. I'm not the only one that has been convicted or feels this way.

reply to post by schadenfreude

I'm holding "churchianity" responsible. Genuine Christians are already doing these things. I'm not the only one that has been convicted or feels this way.

All right, then. Thanks for clarifying. Of course you're not the only one!

And I agree about Hagee and his ilk. I'm not part of any "organized religion" or creed

reply to post by schadenfreude

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(Greed) The world HAS prevailed against the church.

I admire your effort, so in a way it pains me to point out a glaring detail you seem to have overlooked, but gates are defensive apparatuses, not offensive weapons.

reply to post by undo


I have read the Vision, and I respect the hell out of Wilkinson. Let me share with you my favorite piece (synopsis) of one of his best sermons.



We either believe what the bible & the Lord says, or we don't. And hey, if you don't "believe" THROW AWAY THE JESUS TITLE ON/IN YOUR LIFE! You're not doing the rest of us any real favors. You're just giving God a black eye by your "witness".

God says we can do MORE THAN HE DID!(Greater works than these will you do!"

Where are they?

Stop blaming the world, and start blaming yourself. Even the bible says "judgment begins at the house of God."

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I suggest you re-read that, b/c that was exactly my point. I said that exact same thing later on.

seriously.

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I suggest you re-read that, b/c that was exactly my point. I said that exact same thing later on.

seriously.

Don't get snarky, I stopped reading at the comment after the verse which is a non sequitur to the verse you posted. Jesus never said the world wouldn't prevail against the church before His return. What He meant is the gates of hell keeping men's souls there inprisioned would not prevail against the gospel. Millions of souls have been redeemed in 2,000 years.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I suggest you re-read that, b/c that was exactly my point. I said that exact same thing later on.

seriously.

Don't get snarky, I stopped reading at the comment after the verse which is a non sequitur to the verse you posted. Jesus never said the world wouldn't prevail against the church before His return. What He meant is the gates of hell keeping men's souls there inprisioned would not prevail against the gospel. Millions of souls have been redeemed in 2,000 years.

I'm not being "snarky" you made a false accusation, and I am calling you out on it. You said I didn't say the gates of hell are defensive.

(Greed) The world HAS prevailed against the church. Morever the church has stopped moving forward against the world. Gates are not offensive weapons, gates are defensive positions. Bulwarks to hold back the enemy, but the church has stopped moving in a forward direction, she has sided with the world. She has sold out the Lord for 30 pieces of silver.

Why do you accuse ppl of things they didn't say, when in fact they DID?

Furthermore the number one verb in the OT is "GO". If we're not moving forward, we are being stagnate. God can't reside in a stagnate vessel. Healthy things GROW. The church is not growing, her numbers are lateral, not vertical. That is not the sign of something healthy or even alive.

reply to post by schadenfreude

(whenever my depression allows me to post)

The depression you suffer from is likely being caused by listening to that stuff all the time
I don't want to sound disrespectful. But it's sad to see someone so gripped with religious mania that it is basically destroying their life.

Stop listening to that horrible, mind altering poison, and your mood will become more positive i am sure.

Originally posted by schadenfreude
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I guess there's lots of people going to hell. But I have questions about this verse:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

There's too many contradictions in the bible. We are told in Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man.....

But back to Romans 4, Abraham is credited by having faith which is what gets him into heaven, no works, just faith: 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


But on the flip side: James 2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ...

Some people may call this cherry picking but the word is the word. I used to naively take it literally, now I know better. It's sometimes difficult to know what is literal or figurative.

Putting the blame on the church is wrong. Which church? Do you consider Mosques churches? Maybe religion as a whole in general but once again, no personal responsibility or accountability.

I can't help myself, God made me do it.

Originally posted by Atzil321
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

(whenever my depression allows me to post)

The depression you suffer from is likely being caused by listening to that stuff all the time

I don't want to sound disrespectful. But it's sad to see someone so gripped with religious mania that it is basically destroying their life.

Stop listening to that horrible, mind altering poison, and your mood will become more positive i am sure.

The depression I suffer from, is from my OWN inadequacies, and those I see around me.

Let me be clear here, I am not judging anyone by that statement. (Except maybe myself.) God is able to do all these things, and yet us in America don't see it. Why? Isn't that what atheists ask all the time?

Maybe we don't see it b/c there's a lack of holiness on OUR part. In Africa where ppl WALK 20 miles ONE WAY for a church service, that's faith. That's WANT TO. Here in America we can't even DRIVE two-three miles to church b/c at noon the game is on.

Why should God honor that kind of "faith"? That is no faith, that's lip service. And sadly, (imo) that's the norm.

But i thank you for your concern. It isn't "mania" for me, it's a way of life for me. (the miracle for me isn't that I'm depressed and hope to one day be free. The miracle for me is that, despite how I feel I can post & teach, and call out anyway in SPITE of how I feel.

True Christianity doesn't have anything to do with feelings or emotion, they're irrelevant. You're supposed to get offended, as a christian, Jesus said so. Guess what? Get over it & move on.

I'm trying to do just that, pushing through my depression.

Originally posted by schadenfreude
It is OUR fault what is going on in the world today. Not "their" fault. Not "the times" fault, not even God's timetable. Ours.

Gotta disagree with that. I'm not to blame for anyones sins except my own.
Blame the sinners for their own sins. Blame the guilty for their own crimes.
I do what I can and take care of my own situation trying to keep it as clean as possible.
Not all of us are called to be world evangelizers. We do what we can but we are
not responsible for the sins and/or crimes of others. IMHO

regarding divorce: jesus told them when they inquired about the laws regarding divorce, that moses was wrong. that even thinking about it, was the same as doing it. furthermore, the text says over and over again, that you can't do anything that pleases god, because every decision you make, you make out of self interest, even when defending someone else. psychologically, you still have a rationale for doing it related to self preservation which is the human condition. does this mean we sin because grace is available. well no, but it also doesn't mean that we even have the slightest idea what we are talking about when we condemn each other. lol

reply to post by schadenfreude


A "christian" countering his own religion? I dont think so. You've watered down the term quite a bit in your post.

A christian is more than someone who believes in Christ. It is someone taking up the cross and being CHRIST LIKE. That's hardly the case here.

You're taking scripture and arguing against it. How can you be a christian if you're calling the bible, the origin of your "faith" a lie?

That's like me saying "I'm not a racist, but all black people are criminals".

reply to post by StoutBroux


Let's take these one at a time, b/c unlike most ppl I don't agree with "b/c the bible says so" as an answer. (Not that I don't believe that answer, but you won't, so what's the point. I have ZERO PROBLEM defending my faith to those that don't believe. Paul says "be all things to all men" so as long as you are willing to listen, I am willing to show you. (Or make the attempt)

Your argument faith/works is an old one & an often misunderstood one. There's a dichotomy involved here that most can't see. Let me give you an example.

Let's say you love your mother, but you don't call her once a week/month/whatever. Do you truly love your mother? Do you take out her garbage for her when you leave? Now, despite all these things, IS SHE STILL YOUR MOTHER? Of course she is, your treatment of her has NOTHING to do with your bloodline of who/what she is to you & vice versa.

HOWEVER, your relationship stinks. Your respect for her equally is disdainful. You don't do these things to "be her son" you do these things out of appreciation for what she is to you, your mother! That is the dichotomy that exists in scripture that alot of ppl can't/won't reconcile in regards to Jesus Christ.

Alot of ppl say "well if you don't do ANYTHING, just sit on your butt and be "saved" ur gonna goto hell. I don't quite believe that. I 85% do, but there's one verse in the bible (more than one but this is the most pertinent) that gives me pause, it's 1st. Cor 3 14-15 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This isn't about salvation. (Bloodline) But about relationship. (works/rewards) And it's that relationship, by allowing God to be God in our lives, (and not when WE choose to ALLOW him to be KIng) that allows these relationship rewards to manifest. And even THAT is not by our own flesh, it's by HIS spirit and ONLY His spirit that this is even possible!

Abraham wasn't saved b/c of what he did, Abraham was saved b/c he believed on/in the future Messiah that was prophesied. That is why he was saved.

You say blaming the church is wrong. If God gives you the tools, Spirit & heart to do these things, and you don't obey, submit yourself to Him, forsake your own life/wants/desires, is that truly God's fault, or yours?

The bottom line (in my mind) is that Christians refuse to see themselves as slaves, yet the bible says that is precisely what you must become, a bondservant to Christ. (That's what a slave is) So when you decide not to forsake all for "the kingdom" why do you think you deserve any part of the kingdom at all? (Or, more technically, how can you have a relationship with a holy God, when you refuse to remove yourself from an unholy world?)

That's all I am calling out, more personal accountability, which, not surprisingly, the world has for centuries. (And lets be clear, not for any such altruistic purposes, mainly for derision, but even though their intent isn't for Christianity's best interest, does NOT make it any less valid.

That is all I am saying. Hope this helps.

your sin, which you are not initially responsible for, is being born in human flesh. which, unless you argue that you made the choice to become human before you were born, is not your fault. the human condition is what has the big guy ticked off. the big guy though, i suspect is the dude who owned this planet (remember he tried to give it to jesus in exchange for his fealty and jesus declined to acquiesce to his request). to solve this dilemma, consider who the accuser is and what the word accuser means.

reply to post by schadenfreude

You said I didn't say the gates of hell are defensive.

I didn't' "say" that, now you have the immeasurable pleasure of taking your own advice and re-reading what I said. My, my you are a testy little one aren't you? Relax, this is just a simple dialogue. I already admitted I stopped reading the OP at the period of the sentence I originally copy/pasted.

You'll have to pardon my contempt. Let me explain myself for a brief second. You see, I expect attacks on the body of Christ from those outside if Christianity, after all you need to be fairly good-natured when toying with the human puppets of demons (hat tip The GUT), but what really gets under my skin is when Christians assume the role of accuser of the brethren.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by schadenfreude
It is OUR fault what is going on in the world today. Not "their" fault. Not "the times" fault, not even God's timetable. Ours.

Gotta disagree with that. I'm not to blame for anyones sins except my own.
Blame the sinners for their own sins. Blame the guilty for their own crimes.
I do what I can and take care of my own situation trying to keep it as clean as possible.
Not all of us are called to be world evangelizers. We do what we can but we are
not responsible for the sins and/or crimes of others. IMHO

There are five offices in the church. Apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher & evangelist.

And there are nine gifts from the HS. Discernment, tongues, interpretation, prophecy & faith. Healing, wisdom & miracles.

Which one of the main five are you? Which one of the nine gifts do you have? Do you know? Most don't. Most don't CARE to know, then whine & moan b/c their life is so "ineffectual".

14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

If we as a church can't agree that this applies to US, if we can't even agree on REALITY, then we have more serious problems then passing the buck.

"It's always the other guys fault, not mine."

I said at the get go I'm first in line here, so don't try and single me out guys.