Snowden issued Russian entry papers, reportedly leaves airport

Originally posted by xavi1000
Are you still on the fence about Snowden ?

I"m still split. His whistle blowing about NSA spying on Americans was heroic.
His going overseas and cuddling other countries who are just as bad or worse
than the USA tarnishes that 'heroism'. IMHO

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
Are you still on the fence about Snowden ?

I"m still split. His whistle blowing about NSA spying on Americans was heroic.
His going overseas and cuddling other countries who are just as bad or worse
than the USA tarnishes that 'heroism'. IMHO

Can you really blame him though? He knew what the authoritarian US government would do to him and he also knew and was correct that American citizens wouldn't do anything to protect him.

He would be rotting in a jail cell right now and most likely for the rest of his life while we all debated the morality of it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
Are you still on the fence about Snowden ?

I"m still split. His whistle blowing about NSA spying on Americans was heroic.
His going overseas and cuddling other countries who are just as bad or worse
than the USA tarnishes that 'heroism'. IMHO

No splitting , no fence here ...as a proud American women stand up for him ..even on internet .

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Putin just spit in Obama's face. Shows the world how impotent Obama is.

My feelings exactly. If people think Putin is some big warm hearted Grandpa type that gives a hoot whether Snowden lives or dies as a person? Hey, I have this bridge I need to sell and I'll make ya a once in a lifetime deal on it! Really!

Seriously... Putin is having a ball and he can only do this because we have a wimp in the White House that makes Carter look like a bully. Putin could have a full lecture hosted by Snowden, broadcast world wide for every person on Earth to listen to ...and Obama would probably just bitch quietly and pout about it.

Oh...how it would be nice if Putin ran THIS country. I HATE even thinking that ...but with this worthless bowl of Jello we do have??? I'd give my left arm for a man with balls. Anyone.. Really... ANYONE with the courage of conviction to stand for ANYTHING but their own political gain.

Good on him, now he can go shower, smelly bastard!!! I think that transit zone had a hotel in it, so he could of been living like a king no ones seen him... I hope ol' boy is ok.

Russia is not one of my favorite countries in the world but I must give it to them. I'm glad Snowden got asylum even if it's temporary. Glad they came to their senses

reply to post by rainprincess64

welll couse there are peacetalks now between israel and the palestins.... Russia has now something to negotuate

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Oh...how it would be nice if Putin ran THIS country. I HATE even thinking that ...but with this worthless bowl of Jello we do have??? I'd give my left arm for a man with balls. Anyone.. Really... ANYONE with the courage of conviction to stand for ANYTHING but their own political gain.

Good morning Wrabbit,

Could you please clarify what you would prefer Obama to have done with respect to Snowden? Additionally, I presume this above quote is just your stance on attributes for leaders and not necessarily a comment on the legitimacy of Snowden seeking asylum is Russia.

Some how I dont think an aggressive or secret extraction, similar to Iran Hostage situation, will work with Russia.

Furthermore, has the US not flouted international law at an attempt to capture Snowden and return him to the US? The is pretty ballsy to me. How else do you play hardball with a nation like Russia, besides perhaps the further encroachment of missile defense sites around their country...

Link

Below the picture of Edward is a couple of video's. Towards the end of the first video the woman reporter said, "A recent poll shows that about half of American's support the NSA's electronic collection data program".

Either they are full of BS or 150 million Americans have their heads up in the clouds and are totally ignorant. How can anyone be happy with their government collecting, copying, eavesdropping on all their electronic communications?? You might as well live in a glass house with cameras everywhere too and donate your first born child. Maybe the US government needs to play mommy and daddy roles, because apparently there is 150 million idiots in the world.

World headlines in the last two weeks

"Woman has baby" "Man leaves airport"

reply to post by TrueBrit


I only came to appreciate twitter when I started digging deeper into the circumstances of Michael Hasting's disappearence. When nobody seemed to be making the connection between Snowden's NSA revelations and Hastings' car crash it gave me the final nudge to finally join ATS. Searching his tweets for certain persons and terms proved to be an excellent tool to bring myself up to speed on what looks more and more like a very complex matter.

Personally I also hate to read through a wall of text when trying to decide wether or not to follow a thread. Currently I prefer to spend my time on further research and trying to gain a better understanding of what the heck is actually going on than on formulating and polishing my thoughts. Using the tweets for me is a compromise to share my findings - if I were to reformulate everything in my own words I would hardly find the time to make threads at all.


Back on topic:

I am starting to wonder if we are going to see that anouncement on the Manning verdict today:

Snowden's lawyer said he would speak to the media after a day or so acclimatising. WikiLeaks said it would release a statement by Snowden on the Bradley Manning whistleblowing case – which has been compared to his own – later today.

(from the Guardian's live coverage)


That topic has its own thread (made just before the story broke about Snowden leaving the airport):

Snowden To Release Statement On Manning Verdict – WikiLeaks

Originally posted by MDDoxs
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Oh...how it would be nice if Putin ran THIS country. I HATE even thinking that ...but with this worthless bowl of Jello we do have??? I'd give my left arm for a man with balls. Anyone.. Really... ANYONE with the courage of conviction to stand for ANYTHING but their own political gain.

Good morning Wrabbit,

Could you please clarify what you would prefer Obama to have done with respect to Snowden?

Good Morning back at ya! It is a nice morning too, isn't it? Sunshine and 78 degrees here.

Anyway... Well, what could Obama have done? In real world ACTION? Nothing. Nothing at all. We can't "send a team" into Moscow any more than Russia could send a team into Washington (altho who knows if Obama would even permit media to report it, let alone complain, if they did). However, there is A LOT of room between armed incursion and mumbled comments of unhappiness as if impotent to do anything at all.

If I were Obama, I'd first recognize the Soviets/Russians (Putin is very much both and from the age of childhood, in my view of him) don't play and they don't do ANYTHING without calculation and at least a couple meanings beneath the most obvious. We play checkers in America. They play chess in Russia. Obama can't seem to grasp Chess.

Some how I dont think an aggressive or secret extraction, similar to Iran Hostage situation, will work with Russia.

Of course it wouldn't. If captured, Russia may well execute our people on live TV for the shock and 'How dare you!' factor. If not shoot them, they'd sure put them on show trial that would throw Obama's best headlines to the back of the Metro section for weeks. Nothing would be accomplished but to make this even worse. The idea would have been not to let it GET this far...but Putin would have needed some reason, Any reason, to think the cost was more than the enjoyment factor of sticking it in our eye.

Furthermore, has the US not flouted international law at an attempt to capture Snowden and return him to the US? The is pretty ballsy to me. How else do you play hardball with a nation like Russia, besides perhaps the further encroachment of missile defense sites around their country...

Yes, I'd say we have flaunted international law and pretty hard, too. The near kidnapping of Evo Morales wasn't ballsy. It was reckless and foolish to the point of causing facepalms the world over, I'm sure. What moron actually detains a head of state on a rumor that MAYBE a criminal target is present?

-----

So what TO do? Well, how about the strongest objections and protests through the UN. How about direct protest by way of our Ambassador in Moscow and theirs called to the White House in Washington? What deals, offers and other matters are currently between Russia and the US to be decided in other matters ...and can be directly linked for outcome in ways Russia DOES care about?

There are a ton of things that can be done and WERE done for international matters before 'cowboy' diplomacy became the only method the US ever seems to reach for. Recall the days before G.W. Bush? Back when the US didn't either kill problems or pretend they didn't exist at all as the only apparent extremes to choose from? That, alone, is part of the real damage Bush and Obama have both done.

-----

....this situation just highlights the outcome of the damage in neon. We won't shoot Snowden, let alone Putin...and everyone knows by now, we won't do anything ELSE, short of it ...because we rarely, if ever, do anymore...so basically, we have no credibility to so much as object or say 'wtf?' at this point.

*** Oh, and yes, you're right about Snowden. This isn't about his PERSONAL case details anymore. This is into matters of 'high principle' between nations and how we operate with others in the world on very sensitive matters.

Now this guy is really NOT SAFE unless he is under the KGB protection.

Snowden has one year to find a Russian girl to marry and get his permanent residency in Russia.

I do not think any other government like that of Venezuela or Equador would be able to with stand the US pressure.

Originally posted by victor7
Now this guy is really NOT SAFE unless he is under the KGB protection.

You really think that the KGB and Russia are protecting this fella?
He isn't safe with them. He's just jumped from one frying pan to another.
Putin will milk Snowden for all he's worth and then feed him to the dogs.
(once Putin is done rubbing Obama's nose in 'it' )

reply to post by FlyersFan


Snowden will be treated well in Russia. This to show the future American defectors that Russia will take care of them well and more defectors are welcome.

Russians are not like Americans in that after using Pakistan to chase away the Soviets in Afghan, the US totally abandoned the Pak and rest is history. Pak sponsored Talibian in Afghan and then Osama and then AQ and then 911 and then trillions of dollars blown up in chasing barely trained terrorists armed at best with old Soviet or Chinese AKs.

Wonder if people like Snowden would have prefered to stay if trillions not blown up in wars were actually used to rebuild US infrastructure and balance the books.

finally good news

Originally posted by Rosinitiate
Just saw it this morning on CBS morning news. Makes you wonder really...10 years ago i don't think Russia would have had the motts to permit this against the pressure of the USA.

Make no mistake, this action shows everyone that Americas influence has deteriorated immensely from the days just after 911. The world embraced us (regardless if it was false flag) and we squandered it. Any relatively morally astute person would have seen the unintended consequences written all over these types of behaviors but somehow it was all over looked?

If there was ever a time "we the people" could get our country back it is now while other countries can afford to thumb our government. Maybe time to turn off the TV you happy little slaves?

IMO , I think it does the opposite. Didn't Maverick Putin say that he would grant Snowden his papers AS LONG AS he promises to not release any harmful information against the US?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Wrabbit, thank you for the reply. It is quite nice up here as well. I am presuming I am North of you

However, there is A LOT of room between armed incursion and mumbled comments of unhappiness as if impotent to do anything at all.

I would agree here. However, my feeling is that if the US has a chip to play, Snowden would have already been returned by now.

If I were Obama, I'd first recognize the Soviets/Russians (Putin is very much both and from the age of childhood, in my view of him) don't play and they don't do ANYTHING without calculation and at least a couple meanings beneath the most obvious. We play checkers in America. They play chess in Russia. Obama can't seem to grasp Chess.

I would say your spot on with your assessment. I believe there are far reaching implications for protecting Snowden that will be of some benefit to Putin and his government.

Though I would partially agree with you chess vs checkers analogy, I would have to say that when two super powers face off over a contentious issue, both sides tend to end up in a stale mate. By that i mean, the end result will always be the same if things degraded quickly, which would be the scouring of human life from earth through conflict.

Of course it wouldn't. If captured, Russia may well execute our people on live TV for the shock and 'How dare you!' factor. If not shoot them, they'd sure put them on show trial that would throw Obama's best headlines to the back of the Metro section for weeks. Nothing would be accomplished but to make this even worse. The idea would have been not to let it GET this far...but Putin would have needed some reason, Any reason, to think the cost was more than the enjoyment factor of sticking it in our eye.

However, from time to time we see accused spies being ejected from either country. Wasn't the last one an American diplomatic assistant that was recently banished from the country over alleged spying and bribery of a Russian official. ?

Yes, I'd say we have flaunted international law and pretty hard, too. The near kidnapping of Evo Morales wasn't ballsy. It was reckless and foolish to the point of causing facepalms the world over, I'm sure. What moron actually detains a head of state on a rumor that MAYBE a criminal target is present?

Nothing more dangerous then desperation. So i think i would agree with you that that this was a reckless act.

So what TO do?

You have offered valid options for sure, but I will reiterate my comment from above. If the U.S. had a chip to play, Snowden would already be sitting in some dark cell in mainland U.S of A.

so basically, we have no credibility to so much as object or say 'wtf?' at this point.

I think that is the only outcome in this day and age when running into another super power. There is nothing to do but threaten and look like a fool in the process. If the situations were reversed, I think the U.S would do the exact same thing and Russia would act similarly. Now, Putin is a bit more unstable and unconvential, so I am I cannot say for certain he would follow the same path.

Oh, and yes, you're right about Snowden. This isn't about his PERSONAL case details anymore. This is into matters of 'high principle' between nations and how we operate with others in the world on very sensitive matters.

I figured as much and yes this situation has certainly highlighted Geopolitical power struggle. Whether that be between the U.S and its Block or Russia and South American countries.

Sometimes I wonder how some politicians can continue on with their daily political activities knowing that some states will simply brush the rules and regulations aside.

And assassination attempt in 10, 9, 8, 7, 6,..................

Hopefully not

Originally posted by Samuelis

Snowden was unaccompanied when he left the airport in a regular taxi, Kucherena added.

Let's hope he doesn't get accidented now he's out in the open. I hope the taxi wasn't a Mercedes.

edit on 1-8-2013 by Samuelis because: (no reason given)

Or he might get exchanged through a backdoor deal and sent back for other spies that might be captured soon (few weeks/months from now) in US ?