The Trayvon conversation that ended my 8 year friendship.

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

its a twisted and scumbag thing to bring that up. Was it a drug deal gone bad? no..so you only brought up what he does in his past time for what? To disrespect the dead in order to justify...what?

Sorry you feel that way, I'm not disrespecting anyone, just pointing out that that kid was adult enough to do adult things. .

I suppose the whole underlying argument for the TM crowd is this "Trayvon was immature and not wise enough to make a proper judgement call" "We can't fault a child for making bad choices because, he was just a child" "He had every right to accost someone because "fight or flight" is something kids do and we as adults need to be understanding that kids make mistakes"

This is what it all boils down to right? Kids make mistakes. But how was GZ supposed to know he was only 17? I'll say it again. He was 6'2. Besides, last time I checked, the mantra for stranger danger was to run home or to the nearest safe place. Not accost, break nose and climb into a full mount position. We don't teach our kids that. Well, maybe you do...

This is the thing. If GZ didn't have a gun and it played out in TM favor, there would be one of two results. GZ would have been knocked out w/possible concussion, came to, call the police and TM would be up on assault charges. Or two, GZ died and TM would be up on murder charges. Either way, TM would be arrested. So, if both possible outcomes results in a criminal charge, then it's logical to say that Trayvon committed a felony offence. REGARDLESS of a hypothetical outcome or the actual outcome. And seeing he was so close to his 18th birthday, you can be guaranteed he would have been charged as an adult.

The ending in this tragedy does not preclude TM's actions.

Agreed more or less with what you said.
If some hefty 12 year old came at me, I would defend myself.

Consequences.
Zimm stalked some dude. there are consequences for that, such as potentially getting your head punched.
Not legal consequences mind you, but consequences nonetheless
Trayvon decided to turn and challenge the stalker verses run home.
There are consequences for that also...in this case, he lost the fight, and life.
Hopefully both sides teach future conflicts that its best to maybe just stay behind a bit (like in the car) and to simply run home if some creep is following you.

But if Zimm didn't have his gun at that point. I imagine your right...he probably would have gotten his butt kicked by a 17 year old he profiled, or who knows, he might have turned the tide and had a tie. They however both would have lived through it in the end...but I digress.

Future note though, it doesn't matter if in his spare time the person was a crack dealing pimp...this isn't a message about don't shoot kids, if someone is threatening your life, you defend yourself with appropriate measures. The discussion was about (from what I gather), was shooting appropriate.

And to that....we will never truly know...but there is no evidence to show matter of factly that it wasn't.

What the outcome of this will be is more cameras everywhere. Surveillance nation

reply to post by SaturnFX

And to that....we will never truly know...but there is no evidence to show matter of factly that it wasn't.

And this is exactly why GZ got off. Just not enough evidence. My 17 y/o has anger issues and is on his own now in a big city of organized crime, mental health issues and addicts everywhere. He can easily find himself in TM's situation if he ever decides to act on impulse. I'm trying to teach him to look the other way.

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

And to that....we will never truly know...but there is no evidence to show matter of factly that it wasn't.

And this is exactly why GZ got off. Just not enough evidence. My 17 y/o has anger issues and is on his own now in a big city of organized crime, mental health issues and addicts everywhere. He can easily find himself in TM's situation if he ever decides to act on impulse. I'm trying to teach him to look the other way.

Alternatively, he can end up like Zimm. Going all wannabe Bronson (age check).
Never know. just hope for the best, and if he decks some dude that follows him and catches a bullet...well, its not like you can't understand punching a stalker, but the question is, would you be able to understand him being shot over it?
Not guilty...
But that doesn't mean innocent.

It is easier to find a side on this sensationalized case and stick to it verses understand both.

Only true lesson here: violence begets violence. Tray shouldn't have thrown the punch. his mistake...and there is that whole lack of wisdom thing I discussed.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Going all wannabe Bronson (age check).

lol, I know who Bronson is. I'm 42.

if he decks some dude that follows him and catches a bullet...well, its not like you can't understand punching a stalker, but the question is, would you be able to understand him being shot over it?

If he brings his "rock in a sock" out with him or ever gets himself into that situation and gets shot, he would only have himself to blame. People here don't mess around. I've lectured him repeatedly about that. What he does with that information is his choice now.

Not guilty... But that doesn't mean innocent.

agreed.

It is easier to find a side on this sensationalized case and stick to it verses understand both.

This is where the cognitive dissonance comes in. People don't like to be in the middle of agreeing with both sides. It puts them in a state of uncertainty about their belief system. Much easier to pick a side and stick with it.

Originally posted by FlySolo
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

its a twisted and scumbag thing to bring that up. Was it a drug deal gone bad? no..so you only brought up what he does in his past time for what? To disrespect the dead in order to justify...what?

Sorry you feel that way, I'm not disrespecting anyone, just pointing out that that kid was adult enough to do adult things. .

I suppose the whole underlying argument for the TM crowd is this "Trayvon was immature and not wise enough to make a proper judgement call" "We can't fault a child for making bad choices because, he was just a child" "He had every right to accost someone because "fight or flight" is something kids do and we as adults need to be understanding that kids make mistakes"

This is what it all boils down to right? Kids make mistakes. But how was GZ supposed to know he was only 17? I'll say it again. He was 6'2. Besides, last time I checked, the mantra for stranger danger was to run home or to the nearest safe place. Not accost, break nose and climb into a full mount position. We don't teach our kids that. Well, maybe you do...

This is the thing. If GZ didn't have a gun and it played out in TM favor, there would be one of two results. GZ would have been knocked out w/possible concussion, came to, call the police and TM would be up on assault charges. Or two, GZ died and TM would be up on murder charges. Either way, TM would be arrested. So, if both possible outcomes results in a criminal charge, then it's logical to say that Trayvon committed a felony offence. REGARDLESS of a hypothetical outcome or the actual outcome. And seeing he was so close to his 18th birthday, you can be guaranteed he would have been charged as an adult.

The ending in this tragedy does not preclude TM's actions.

Very well said!!

I had not thought of some of those things- I now have new arguments to make when friend/family gets upset during conversation abuout the verdict.

Thanks for sharing!!

Friends have disagreements and sometimes stop talking for a while, but usually, it passes and we can all be friends again. At least we all know where the other stands.
Anytime I get the argument that: "He was just a kid with skittles and a watermelon tea" I always retort: "What the hell does that have to do with violently attacking and trying to kill someone?"
Trayvon was the one using racist remarks, not GZ!

Trayvon had the chance to go back into his dads apartment, but he chose to track down GZ and confront him because he thought he was a "creepy-ass cracker". Seems a little paranoid and violent, which is the exact symptoms of drinking LEAN(made from cough syrup, skittles, and watermelon tea).

I've seen many 17yo's who could fight like men, so this notion that he was just a little, harmless kid is ridiculous, at best. The evidence clearly showed what happened and it's time to move on to greener pastures. GZ should be left alone to live his life and the Martin family should use this opportunity to educate misguided youth that: ANYTIME you decide to attack someone, you should know that they could kill you in an instant.

reply to post by Fylgje


Abosolutely!

I respond with the exact same answer.Each time, they then say, "Well, he beat him up cuz Zimmerman was following him."

Me: "And that's justifcation for physical assault?"

Friend: " Yes! He was scared!"

Me: "Then why didn't he make it home? He was ahead of George Zimmerman the entire time. They were never side by side, nor was George ever ahead of him."

Friend: "He went to Zimmerman to ask him why he was being followed."

Me: "Exactly - indicating that HE is the one to initiate the confrontation."

Friend: "No. He asked him why he was being followed. That's all."

Me: "Then how did he come to blows with Zimmerman?"

Friend: (Crickets.....crickets....crickets...) "Zimmerman should have never got out of his car!"

Me: 'Why? Because he should have KNOWN Trayvon was going to assault him, like some sort of wild animal??"

Friend: "Whatever...I'm done discussing this."