The Trayvon conversation that ended my 8 year friendship.

reply to post by FlySolo


What is fascinating about this exchange is you are fighting about the version of the polarized talking points created by the media and those involved. Neither of you have any dog in this fight, not any actual connection to the events in any way, yet both of you are invested to the point of fighting. Whatever this is, this "event" it only involved a few people at best, just like the kid who was shot a few miles from me last month - yet because you both watched TV, you are both invested, and experts and fighting. Were you fighting over actual events you both were involved in, like a dividing wall between neighboring properties, I can see the fight part, but fighting over this is beyond silly - you're fighting over fantasy, coming to blows over: "who'd beat who, 72 dolphins or and Brady-patriot team."

reply to post by FlySolo


Looks to me that you're better off without him. I didn't read everything, but a lot and skimmed through the rest. Find yourself some more subjective friends who aren't afraid to view the world through their own eyes.

I guess I don't fully understand peoples issues with racism...not like don't understand the distaste of it, I get that, but why are people suggesting Zimm isn't or wasn't racist...of course he was/is. lots of people are. every color has a bunch of racists..human nature.
And sure, he totally profiled Tray.

Neither of those are crimes..you can be the leader of the kkk and think all (insert non-white color here) are up to no good...and its your right to walk and follow them if you want. Your gonna be labeled creepy and invite confrontation of course, but its your right.

Our rights give us the ability to do such things. our wisdom gives us the intellect not to.

So sure, George is a racist, doesn't matter. it came down to was Zimmerman in fear of his life and the killing then justified....

Personally, I am torn...mostly because I wasn't there and there isn't enough evidence to show that...however, there isn't enough evidence to show he wasn't either...

And this justice system (legal system, there isn't much justice) requires beyond a reasonable doubt.

This doesn't mean Zimm is innocent...he simply isn't found guilty. Is he innocent? maybe we will never know....he knows, and its something he will live with for the rest of his days..either comfortably or not depending.

As far as people whom are passionate..meh, media passions. I fully agree with the community about the beginning, the need to investigate the event, and how it was all but ignored until there was a stink raised...but the jury has spoken, and in my opinion, they were correct....they abide by the system of law, not the need for justice...

You and your friend will be fine again in a few months...both trying to change opinions of each other over a case that has no evidence either way...so its demanding a viewpoint be adopted. He isn't a juror nor you...you can totally agree with the jury, or totally disagree, but it doesn't matter because neither are part of the trial. I see your side of things, but I also see how you have blinders on also. in suggesting the jury made the proper call (and they also did with Casey), you then went over and started debating that Zimmerman himself was not racist (there is evidence he is, but being racist isn't a crime..else possibly over half the population would be locked up)...so, there is enough koolaid to go around on that debate.

But ya...its sports team talk...season is over, the grump is happening at the moment, but later on it will be fine.
Go fishing, or clubbing...and I recommend getting off facebook. Not because its some terrible conspiracy of gov keeping tabs on you and such, but because, in reality, you don't want to know every bs thought of the day your 200 "friends" have...it will only eventually cause annoyance and opposition....I don't want my fishing friend my politicial thoughts, I want to discuss best baits. and my political friends probably don't need to know my weird fetishes, etc...these people aren't my super best friends since forever...

everything in its place.

Originally posted by Auricom
reply to post by FlySolo

 

Looks to me that you're better off without him. I didn't read everything, but a lot and skimmed through the rest. Find yourself some more subjective friends who aren't afraid to view the world through their own eyes.

See what you did there though (read again).
Because the person wasn't seeing the world through ops eyes, then they are wrong and afraid to view the world or whatnot...
Difference of opinion...and in a situation like this, with no real evidence either way, opinions is what many people have.
so your suggesting then that because his buddy didn't share the same opinion, and seemed more about justice than law, that the ops shouldn't care about losing that friend....because he thought differently than himself.

That line of thinking is a mirror complaint. the irony is noted.

This is why I'm glad I live in Canada. Pretty much every country in the world has a former resident that lives here. Usually the diversity is in the more populated areas, then the country sides. Racism is almost an utter joke sometimes depending how well you know the person, if you wanted to make such jokes. There still a few problems here and there, but not on a huge scale.

Zimmerman seems to be an utter coward really, then a racist. I mean he not white, so how could he be racist right? I mean us white people conquered the planet with the other races help, due to a few sell outs who back stabbed their own kind, am I right?(Im being sarcastic btw.)

I think Zimmerman going to have a whole heap of trouble with not only the black, but the cops in that community as well. I mean if any riot cops get hurt or killed, a few of them might even place the blame on Zimmerman. Plus I would not be surprised if he in the witness protection, and is half way across the states.

And to think, people want to start worrying about other worldly visitors. No wonder why they stay up there, cause who know what problems they would want to bring.

exact same thing happened to me yesterday. 1 V 3...

2 hours of wasted time. No one changed their minds.

OP, I can relate. I posted about this very thing happening to me on my thread about blacks who 'Dare to be Different".

I'm black and supported George Zimmerman from day one, and was very happy with his acquittal.

My friends and family are all still upset at me because I chose to look at the facts and the evidence of the case and never once allowed 'racial hatred' to overcloud my judgment.

I think its (friendships ending over this case) happening to more people than we know; its almost the Civil War all over again.

reply to post by SaturnFX


No, his mind is closed to another perspective leading the OP's friend to bash him (by calling him a troll) just because his opinion was different then his. You can agree to disagree, something his friend should have done. Nothing wrong with an honest, heated debate. But when you're so biased and unable to see things from both perspectives, something's wrong.

Just because someone believes something different then I, doesn't mean I think they're trolling. And doesn't mean I can't carry out a discussion with that person. If I took offense to what my friends believed, I'd have no friends left.

It's called keeping a cool head.

**Edit**
Also, justice is subjective. In my opinion, justice was served. A criminal attacked a man who then used self defense who has been found not guilty.

I just simply delete those people like the feminist "friend" I had recently who would get mad at you if you tried to talk about equality rather then women being all powerful and knowledgable but unable to use it due to men.

Originally posted by Auricom
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

No, his mind is closed to another perspective leading the OP's friend to bash him (by calling him a troll) just because his opinion was different then his. You can agree to disagree, something his friend should have done. Nothing wrong with an honest, heated debate. But when you're so biased and unable to see things from both perspectives, something's wrong.

Yes, name calling and strawmen argument is of course a sign of a weak argument, Just saying, there are two opposing opinions here on the idea of justice, both being valid given there is no solid evidence either way.
Zimmerman was found not guilty, this is fine, there wasn't evidence to convict..but to some, there was enough circumstancial evidence to find the man distasteful (validly, because..he is a racist..he is..lets not pretend otherwise).
The system does not punish those people find distasteful though....otherwise as I said, over half the population would be jailed. We have a right to opinions, in the absence of evidence, both sides are equal.

That's all I am saying. both argued a opinion...a viewpoint. one angry justice wasn't served (and it wasn't), and one angry justice was served (and it was). Because as you suggested, justice is subjective.

Also, justice is subjective. In my opinion, justice was served. A criminal attacked a man who then used self defense who has been found not guilty

Just wanted to correct a thing here
a man attacked a man..not a criminal...the kid wasn't some monster, he was just some kid. Probably freaked out about being stalked and profiled, and it was a mistake clearly for him to confront...although I can't say I would have done differently if I was simply walking home and someone was following me...I wouldn't have started swinging unless swung at first, but I don't think I would just keep walking either. I have the common sense to ask why I am being followed and explain I live nearby. I have been asked that before in my own neighborhood, I understand it, and am actually kinda glad people will confront a person and ask random people at night who they are.
Its not their right to know, its not my responsibility to tell.
that's when wisdom kicks in.

The kids biggest fault, if what the defense says is true, is lack of wisdom...but that doesn't make him a criminal, it makes him a kid.

reply to post by yourmaker


That's not even true feminism; that's more like female chauvinism. I am ALL about equality. True, hardcore, down-to-the-bone equality for all people, regardless of age, sex, race, religion, etc. When certain groups are given certain privileges for being a minority or for having previously been limited in the past, that is reverse discrimination not equality. Sigh, I just wish people like that "friend" would understand....

Thanks for this thread. S&F. I think you are right about the fact that this is causing lot's of division among long time friends etc. The only thing we can do is try to put the facts out there without getting too emotional about it. Aside from posting my own rant on my own page about the media and it being the single most form of control over the American people, I didn't post on the TM GZ thing on FB.. except once. (It's posted below) I definitely understand the frustration of people not understanding. The best thing to do is try to speak with like-minded individuals and come to places like ATS to blow off the steam.

The little fb exchange I had was not nearly as heated or lengthy as yours but I tried to tread lightly. Oh, and I'm not pasting the whole convo from the beginning, only the part where I injected my thoughts. Lucky for me, there was someone else already there who saw it the way I did.. and surprisingly, that person is a liberal!! (most of my friends are, so it can be really hard sometimes

Someone else: ____, he was not told NOT to follow, he was told, "We don't need you to do that" when he suggested he follow. A difference there. My problem is a child is dead, but not the child the mainstream press is showing in pictures.

Her: ____-- And yet HE DID IT ANYWAY when told that they needed him NOT to do that. Pretty clear to me. We will have to disagree. End of comment.

Me: 9-11 dispatchers have no legal authority over anyone. Just Saying. I'm not saying GZ should have been snooping around but there is no law against it. Apparently according to the testimonies that area had a lot of burglaries.(but who knows) Either way, the evidence for the prosecution just wasn't enough in this case from a legal standpoint. It's a shame that a young man got killed. Unfortunately for the prosecutors, the evidence for Zimmerman regarding being beaten and head slammed against a curb worked more for the case of self defense than it did for murder.

Her:- _____ I used to work in a police department, so I'm sure I have a pretty good idea about what dispatchers do. Again, if GZ had NOT done what he did, this wouldn't be an issue. I'm betting that if the circumstances were reversed and it was Trayvon who pulled the trigger, we would have a much different verdict. In fact, I'm SURE we would. And hey, if GZ hadn't been doing # he shouldn't have been doing, Trayvon wouldn't have had to defend himself. I'm sorry, but it boggles my mind that you people don't see the whole picture. Trayvon is DEAD. Get it? DEAD. GZ is not. GZ started this whole #ing thing -- DO YOU #ING GET IT? I'm sorry,_______, but we are friends and I suggest we leave this conversation RIGHT here. Again, I used to work in a police department and I'm probably more familiar with that atmosphere than you are.

Me: woops haha, hang on, reading

Her: No more comments on this thread or I will delete them. We will have to agree to disagree.

Her: I'm not angry at you guys personally. I am pissed off at this situation and disgusted to boot. So I'm venting my frustration at that and not you as people. You can be wrong and I'll still like you. But...you're wrong.

Me: ___ I can agree to disagree, totally cool with me. The only thing I can say is that from a legal standpoint whether he did what the dispatchers said or not really made no difference in court. I hope you don't delete my comment but that is certainly your prerogative. It's an emotionally charged subject, but it should not be brought up if discussion is not expected...

Her: I post my opnion on my wall and that doesn't mean it's a democracy. ;P

Her: I'm queen of my page, basically. LOL!

Her: Anyway, I should be off of here. Have a good night, _______!

Me: haha touche' it's your page!


And that's it. I decided to let it stop there because when someone basically admits they don't care what you think, there is no reason to continue on.

reply to post by FlySolo


I'm sorry to hear about your longtime friendship ending. I agree with you in that this case was made out to be about race when it clearly isn't. It seems to me that the media truly doesn't want racism to end it seems and are just trying to fuel that fire just so they have more stories to overly sensationalize. It was determined some time ago before the verdict was handed out that Zimmerman is not racist. The media and the Obama administration clearly tried to make this story into something it is not. I believe part of this is due to the fact the gov't wants to take away our right to bear arms (whole other topic I won't tap into here). There were too many "what ifs" involved and it annoyed me greatly to see many pictures of Martin as a kid and not how he was just before he died (yet more sensationalizing on the media's part, trying to portray him as an innocent kid).

I can see why you both got heated in the moment of things as people can be frustrating (as we all know), yet I think the name-calling was unnecessary (didn't really do anything to help either of your guys' arguments but instead hurt if you ask me). Is an argument like this worth losing a longtime friendship over? Definitely not. I find it a sad thing when people throw away years of friendship over a trivial argument (trivial in my opinion anyways).

all of what you typed has little to do with what really happened between you two..that conversation was a catalyst to a more simplistic occurrence...

the word friend is thrown out there like a blanket in this time..when some other word would be more fitting
like acquaintance..ally, amigo, buddy, chum colleague, co-worker,classmate,comrade,confidant,crony,familiar,
mate, fellow,pal,partner,playmate,ect.ect..

if u learn anything from this..maybe it should be narrow the field a bit in what *friend*means to you and choose them more carefully..

that being said there is a very sharp decline in critical thinking skills..maybe because its not part of todays educational system,or maybe it is caused by fluoride or chemtrails..who knows.. but the lack of critical thinking is the root to allot of todays problems

So, let me get this straight. Your friendship is ending over something that is totally unrelated to you? Zimmerman was exonerated, proved innocent so he's not guilty. It's a non-issue now. People need to let the man get back to his life and move on. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson need to quit sticking their big noses in where it doesn't belong, this wasn't a case of racism, although the media tried hard as hell to convict Zimmerman, infact Zimmerman never would have been arrested, the police chief when the investigation first began was forced to resign because he chose to uphold his oath, that right there should tell you something.

Everyone who thinks zimmerman is innocent. I would like them to sincerely consider their opinions on this case, if instead of Trayvon Martin, the 17 year old skittle wielding, hoody wearing highschooler was a white Cornelius Martin III. I guarantee you all would be outraged with what happened and without thinking consider Zimmerman guilty. This is why there is a race issue involved.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I don't care if it was a purple Arnold Snufflepugus IV, if he attacked another person, and got his ass blown away because of it, it's still his own fault.

reply to post by PaperMetel

acquaintance..ally, amigo, buddy, chum colleague, co-worker,classmate,comrade,confidant,crony,familiar, mate, fellow,pal,partner,playmate,ect.ect..

You're right. We went from single dudes playing the field to friends to co-workers to family man to buddies to family men to facebook only. Which is probably why it escalated so easily.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
Everyone who thinks zimmerman is innocent. I would like them to sincerely consider their opinions on this case, if instead of Trayvon Martin, the 17 year old skittle wielding, hoody wearing highschooler was a white Cornelius Martin III. I guarantee you all would be outraged with what happened and without thinking consider Zimmerman guilty. This is why there is a race issue involved.

.

Two things I keep seeing whenever the TM camp remarks. 1, If he were white 2. skittles (ice tea). The first point is only hypothetical. Besides, the color of skin isn't what defines the crime. Doesn't matter if Trayvon was white, ZM would have done the same thing and the same verdict would have been read. And why would anyone be outraged in that scenario anyway? It happens all the time in every city and no one cares.

The second point always leaves me scratching my head. What does skittles have to do with any of this? Skittles are only marketed for 17 y/o kids who do no harm. Is this why everyone keeps referring to skittles? Like it's some kind of end-all-be-all trump card? Criminals like skittles too you know? And possibly even some dogs and cats.

reply to post by SaturnFX

so your suggesting then that because his buddy didn't share the same opinion, and seemed more about justice than law, that the ops shouldn't care about losing that friend....because he thought differently than himself.

I'll answer this. It isn't about having a different point of view. I'm not that shallow. (:@@. It's more about the choice of words. I didn't like his tone, it was uncalled for. To me, it shows an extreme lack of respect. And what's a friend without respect?