Is Christianity a Religion of War?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

DOES GOD HAVE THE RIGHT TO RULE?

DOES HE HAVE A RIGHT TO RULE OVER YOU AND YOUR FAMILY?

I speak only for myself. Does he has the right to rule over me without my consent? Hell no. Go ahead, ask me why if you want to. Ask me why I say 'hell no'. I have some good reasons. Of course, if you've read my posts in both this thread and the one about atheism as a religion of war (look it up) then you probably won't have to ask.

Still, questions are welcome. I wouldn't want my position to be misunderstood.

edit on 15-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

DOES GOD HAVE YOUR CONSENT TO RULE OVER YOU?

reply to post by Fraudfinder

DOES GOD HAVE YOUR CONSENT TO RULE OVER YOU?

The short answer is: No.

The long answer is: The only effects of his "rule" that I have seen are in people who have convinced themselves that he exists. In which case, they are only using him as an excuse to express a kindness they already had the ability to express. They use "God" as an excuse to do something they could have done anyway. I guess they just need a better reason than "the good of the community". I don't see that as something to admire. Furthermore, he has nothing to offer me that I want or can't get without his assistance.

So again, no.

Originally posted by StalkerSolent

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
No, the problem here is that Christianity shoots humanity in the foot by stating that peace is unattainable without the help of Jesus. Christianity cannot believe in a lasting peace because it goes against the tenants of its doctrine. Christianity has a doctrine that includes the Warrior God coming in to conquer and kill, not teach and love. Judgement, not Understanding. Conflict over Peace. Peace only comes to those that believe in Jesus, and that only comes after he has killed everyone else in bloody war.

I think you're equivocating the Christian's belief that peace is unattainable with a desire by Christians for war. That's a mistake. Remember, Christians also believe that "the poor will always be with you" but also engage (and are specifically called to engage) in many acts of charity. Likewise, the "bloody war" you reference isn't something Christians are supposed to get started. In the interpretations of Revelation (at least the ones involving literal war) that I'm familiar with, the whole affair starts off with the Antichrist taking over the world and instigating reams of human rights abuses.

(Of course, Christianity isn't a monolithic religion. Don't make that mistake either.)

Incidentally, the idea that humanity will never be at peace isn't uniquely Christian, IMHO. Humans are a pretty violent race, and most people with a sense of history recognize this–but it doesn't make them warmongers. I'll quote Robert Heinlein: "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

The Antichrist is part of the Christian religion, so... when referencing the Antichrist as the start of or the cause of any wars, you are actually proving my point. Jesus is doing battle with The Antichrist, or Satan, or any number of other figures within his own mythos. My premise is that the entire mythos is a mythos of War.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

My premise is that the entire mythos is a mythos of War.

We already know what the answer to that is.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

DOES GOD HAVE YOUR CONSENT TO RULE OVER YOU?

The short answer is: No.

The long answer is: The only effects of his "rule" that I have seen are in people who have convinced themselves that he exists. In which case, they are only using him as an excuse to express a kindness they already had the ability to express. They use "God" as an excuse to do something they could have done anyway. I guess they just need a better reason than "the good of the community". I don't see that as something to admire. Furthermore, he has nothing to offer me that I want or can't get without his assistance.

So again, no.

edit on 15-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

QUESTION: Do you believe in God? My reason for asking is how you wrote "People who have convinced themselves that he exists."

You sound very educated. Have you looked for the truth? Done your own research into the old and new testaments? The Gospels and Christianity. So after your research tell me..........what does it all add up to? Give me the short, short, short version if you will.

NOTE: See if you can wrap it up in no more than two paragraphs. ('')

reply to post by Fraudfinder

QUESTION: Do you believe in God?

Not in the sense that you do. I believe there may be beings we call "gods" out of ignorance, and that's as far as it goes. They are not all-powerful in any sense, they are just more powerful than humans. And I don't know for a fact that any such beings exist, but I will not disregard the possibility.

You sound very educated. Have you looked for the truth? Done your own research into the old and new testaments? The Gospels and Christianity. So after your research tell me..........what does it all add up to? Give me the short, short, short version if you will.

Myths and folktales written by Bedouin sheepherders ignorant by today's standards. Possibly used as a cover for a series of algorithms compiled to give future generations a better understanding of the forces that govern this universe.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

The Antichrist is part of the Christian religion, so... when referencing the Antichrist as the start of or the cause of any wars, you are actually proving my point. Jesus is doing battle with The Antichrist, or Satan, or any number of other figures within his own mythos. My premise is that the entire mythos is a mythos of War.

Oh. I thought your point was that Christianity was a religion of war. You seemed (at least to me) to be wondering if Christians want (literal) war or were warmongers. Saying that Christianity uses the rhetoric or language of war and struggle is a little different! Perhaps I misunderstood you.

So yes, Christianity is a religion that emphasizes struggle against the forces of darkness by the forces of light–nothing really controversial about that, I don't think, although much of Christian religion also emphasizes peace, love, joy, etc. etc.

I daresay most ideologies/religions/philosophies can be summed up as some form of a struggle. Islam has jihad, the Stoic philosophies are about the struggle with self, etc. Even some atheists, I imagine, would characterize their goals as a struggle or conflict between the forces of darkness (ignorance and superstition) and light (knowledge and science.)

reply to post by StalkerSolent


No, don't try to dress it up in pretty wrappings and shiny bows. Christians believe that war is necessary for their final utopic vision to be realized. Something equivalent to a genocide, the destruction of millions, all of those who are selfish and cruel or even those who just don't care to serve under the rule of their god. Or am I wrong?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

QUESTION: Do you believe in God?

Not in the sense that you do. I believe there may be beings we call "gods" out of ignorance, and that's as far as it goes. They are not all-powerful in any sense, they are just more powerful than humans. And I don't know for a fact that any such beings exist, but I will not disregard the possibility.

You sound very educated. Have you looked for the truth? Done your own research into the old and new testaments? The Gospels and Christianity. So after your research tell me..........what does it all add up to? Give me the short, short, short version if you will.

Myths and folktales written by Bedouin sheepherders ignorant by today's standards. Possibly used as a cover for a series of algorithms compiled to give future generations a better understanding of the forces that govern this universe.

I too have thought this way in the past. I think I have every UFO book in PDF format. I have went through the thousands of youtube videos, Coast to Coast listener since 1999 and researched with FOIA request to verify certain facts. (This is not the time) and after awhile the evidence is so overwhelming that there are other life forms and these life forms want to show mankind that they have proof that they made man, corrections within the DNA and blah, blah, blah. These life forms are demons, fallen angels, evil spirits, Satan deceiving man into believing they are our creators. Of course they can not tell us how to heal from cancer, Aids, etc.... Some say they come from another dimension. Be very careful with this way of thinking and there is a warning about this in the new testament warning the elders to stay alert and not to be deceived though many will believe this lie.

Lucifer has been around longer than you or I and much smarter. Alien contact is nothing more than fallen angels with "dark technology" under Lucifer's rule doing his will and his will is to keep us away from God. This is the great lie.

Originally posted by StalkerSolent

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

The Antichrist is part of the Christian religion, so... when referencing the Antichrist as the start of or the cause of any wars, you are actually proving my point. Jesus is doing battle with The Antichrist, or Satan, or any number of other figures within his own mythos. My premise is that the entire mythos is a mythos of War.

Oh. I thought your point was that Christianity was a religion of war. You seemed (at least to me) to be wondering if Christians want (literal) war or were warmongers. Saying that Christianity uses the rhetoric or language of war and struggle is a little different! Perhaps I misunderstood you.

So yes, Christianity is a religion that emphasizes struggle against the forces of darkness by the forces of light–nothing really controversial about that, I don't think, although much of Christian religion also emphasizes peace, love, joy, etc. etc.

Christianity sets the Christians against the non-Christians in what culminates as a war in which they will win with the help of their warrior God, Jesus. Christ's love was for Christians. Christ's malice was for Non-Christians. Be good to fellow Christians, and if one is not a Christian, bring him to Jesus' feet and kill him in front of the jealous and angry God.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
Christianity sets the Christians against the non-Christians in what culminates as a war in which they will win with the help of their warrior God, Jesus. Christ's love was for Christians. Christ's malice was for Non-Christians. Be good to fellow Christians, and if one is not a Christian, bring him to Jesus' feet and kill him in front of the jealous and angry God.

I'm not sure what version of Christian doctrine you've been reading/hearing about, but it must be pretty unorthodox. What you've said doesn't square with the Christian narrative that holds that God loves all of mankind, which is one of the core tenets of the Christian doctrine.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by StalkerSolent

 

No, don't try to dress it up in pretty wrappings and shiny bows. Christians believe that war is necessary for their final utopic vision to be realized. Something equivalent to a genocide, the destruction of millions, all of those who are selfish and cruel or even those who just don't care to serve under the rule of their god. Or am I wrong?

edit on 15-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Actually, not all Christians agree on those particular details (like I said before, Christianity is far from being monolithic.) But Christian eschatology typically holds that God will defeat the armies of the Antichrist in some sort of climactic battle. I think the destruction of millions about fits the bill. But it's done by God and His armies; it is not a struggle that Christians are supposed to initiate (at least, not from anything I've seen in Scripture, and not according to most interpretations that I am familiar with.)

But this type of final confrontation is not uniquely Christian. Nor does it make Christianity into a warlike religion, if by "warlike religion" you mean a religion where the believers are commanded to kill unbelievers. To make that claim, you'd have to read the religion's instructions to its followers.

To be accurate when dealing with a religion, you've got to distinguish between prophecies, histories, and commandments. For instance, the history of the Jewish conquering of the Promised Land does not make Judaism a warlike religion because Judaism doesn't proscribe that behavior, merely records it as a specific commandment of God at a certain time. Likewise, the Nordic prophecies of a final war between the good and evil gods does not make it a warlike religion because those prophecies are descriptions of things to come, not behavioral commandments.

Originally posted by StalkerSolent

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
Christianity sets the Christians against the non-Christians in what culminates as a war in which they will win with the help of their warrior God, Jesus. Christ's love was for Christians. Christ's malice was for Non-Christians. Be good to fellow Christians, and if one is not a Christian, bring him to Jesus' feet and kill him in front of the jealous and angry God.

I'm not sure what version of Christian doctrine you've been reading/hearing about, but it must be pretty unorthodox. What you've said doesn't square with the Christian narrative that holds that God loves all of mankind, which is one of the core tenets of the Christian doctrine.

Well, please feel free to dispute that with scripture, because simply saying it doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by StalkerSolent

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
Christianity sets the Christians against the non-Christians in what culminates as a war in which they will win with the help of their warrior God, Jesus. Christ's love was for Christians. Christ's malice was for Non-Christians. Be good to fellow Christians, and if one is not a Christian, bring him to Jesus' feet and kill him in front of the jealous and angry God.

I'm not sure what version of Christian doctrine you've been reading/hearing about, but it must be pretty unorthodox. What you've said doesn't square with the Christian narrative that holds that God loves all of mankind, which is one of the core tenets of the Christian doctrine.

Well, please feel free to dispute that with scripture, because simply saying it doesn't make it so.

True, simply saying something doesn't make it true, but I have seen Scripture detailing the Christian God's love for the world (the ever-famous John 3:16 is a great place to start) and I have not seen any commanding Christians to kill unbelievers. As far as I can tell, you are the one who is disputing with the Bible.

All religions are religions of war.... atleast that's what their followers have proven/shown it to be

RIGHT I got off on the wrong foot earlier in the thread with some of my posts so here is my genuine belief,

Christianity is not a religion of war but of peace but like any belief system there are those whom choose to try to impose there own agenda and interpretation and like any belief system it has been used for such purpose in the past as declaring war, maintaining political power and though we whom are Christians must say our king is Christ it has also been used to justify so called kings, queens and other rulers in there position, there were many early converts to the Christian religion (A more pure form than is now practiced)en.wikipedia.org... after the fragmentation of the empire an emperor by the name of Constantine declared it the state religion and many formerly heathen priests suddenly changed religion but brought a lot of there excess baggage with them. It was after this that the Christian faith warped by imperial edict was used to justify war but in reality it became a tool of state.
There has even been a woman pope in the catholic church in Rome (7th century), she was supposedly of British origin and called Joan, it that time it was perfectly permissible for a priest to marry and have a family and the non Christian tradition of enforced rather than voluntary celibacy was not a part of the Christian church.
Joan was said to have gone into labour while serving mass, the crowd whom were barely converted went into a frenzy and tore her and her child to pieces as there (Vestel virgin) sensibility's had been offended and they are said to have trampled the remains into the ground, a later pope erected a statue of a woman and child to her and there is some indication she may have been regarded as a st or martyr. Later another pope had all record of her removed and the statue was rededicated to the virgin mary, her bust in the was removed and a bust of a man placed in its place, her slot in history was replaced with a pope john whom never existed and her legend was slandered and corrupted, so the catholic church has indeed committed some vile acts not least of which was it's helping to engineer the downfall of the greek orthodox but it was on political and trade grounds that this happened, in Croatia and Serbia the descendants of a single people live whom have been divided by the latin and Cyrillic alphabet and the catholic and greek orthodox church, they have killed one another for century's.
Christianity is not a religion of war but there are those whom use if for such.

Originally posted by StalkerSolent

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by StalkerSolent

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
Christianity sets the Christians against the non-Christians in what culminates as a war in which they will win with the help of their warrior God, Jesus. Christ's love was for Christians. Christ's malice was for Non-Christians. Be good to fellow Christians, and if one is not a Christian, bring him to Jesus' feet and kill him in front of the jealous and angry God.

I'm not sure what version of Christian doctrine you've been reading/hearing about, but it must be pretty unorthodox. What you've said doesn't square with the Christian narrative that holds that God loves all of mankind, which is one of the core tenets of the Christian doctrine.

Well, please feel free to dispute that with scripture, because simply saying it doesn't make it so.

True, simply saying something doesn't make it true, but I have seen Scripture detailing the Christian God's love for the world (the ever-famous John 3:16 is a great place to start) and I have not seen any commanding Christians to kill unbelievers. As far as I can tell, you are the one who is disputing with the Bible.

edit on 15-7-2013 by StalkerSolent because: (no reason given)

John 3:16 isn't "Love for the world" it is Love for believers. Believers get Everlasting Life. Nonbelievers get Death and Everlasting torment.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

John 3:16 isn't "Love for the world" it is Love for believers. Believers get Everlasting Life. Nonbelievers get Death and Everlasting torment.

See, the verse says "For God so loved the world that He gave his only Begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life," or something of that nature. "World" here is used instead of "believers," so I'm not sure where you're coming to that conclusion.
Incidentally, the text is referencing a time when there were no Christians, so your reading would go something like this: "God so loved the Christians that before they existed, He sent His son to die for them." It mangles the original meaning of the text and presents a temporal paradox. (Remember, no Christians before Christ.)

I believe that some Christian sects/creeds (extreme Calvinists?) might hold to your view on this particular verse, but it is certainly not universally held to by all Christians, and a plain reading of the text (in English, at least) refutes your claim.

As I mentioned before, it is quite possible you've been exposed to these ideas of Christianity by particular sects/denominations/etc. The Christian body of belief, just like the Islamic and indeed Jewish religions, is by no means monolithic. I am not as familiar with modern Judaism or Islam in any of its forms as I am with Christianity, but from what I do know it seems that Christianity is probably the most fractured of any of those three religions (those who might know better, feel free to correct me on this!)