Is Christianity a Religion of War?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I would like to say here, for the record, that my contention with the major religions of the world isn't about a personal struggle with a belief in a deity. I know for a fact that I don't believe in a god...and if such a being exists, I feel sorry for its existential state of perpetual half-ness - distinct enough to be aware of something, disparate enough to not know what. I can't imagine any sort of consciousness functioning well with that sort of nature. Anyway, my battle is based on the fact that even though I don't believe in that sort of thing, enough of society does that the ideals promoted therein are scattered throughout social protocol, supporting a growing movement that is sluggishly transforming the general idea of perfection into something that would complete undermine what it is to be human. I would hate to see that transformation be completed, so I'm doing my small part here.

I just thought I would explain that, to clear up any misunderstandings about what I'm doing here and why.

If there is ever a movement to try to insist upon literal human perfection here on Earth, you can rest assured that I am as dead-set against it as you are. I'm not sure what movement you've tapped into (I haven't noticed anything quite like you've described), but that sort of idea deeply disturbs me.
I might add, it disturbs me because of my Christianity, not in spite of it.

reply to post by StalkerSolent

Yes, yes you really are missing out.
And hopefully this will not sound prideful, but I think I do a good job of putting myself in other people's shoes. I understand the allure of atheism, at least to a point. I see a lot of myself, honestly, in your replies. But I've got no desire to try to find other sources of fulfillment. I don't know any other path that would give me the promise of a death without regrets.

So this religion is a failsafe for people like you, who fear dying without really living?

Apparently I need to work on being clear I understood what you said; my point was that if Judaism borrowed moral precepts from other moral codes, they too were almost certainly religious. I.e. you can't escape from the religious foundations of traditional morality.

Hmm...a fair point. But how is "respect others and take responsibility for yourself" a religiously grounded code?

I'm not saying Hitler acted differently. (He did, but there's no need to squabble over the details because that's not my point.) I'm saying that for a human to take the place of God is dangerous. That's like saying a murderous vigilante didn't act any differently than an executioner. Well, no, he didn't. But he acted outside of his place. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. But it doesn't eliminate the fact that "God" inspired that sort of mentality, the mentality seeking perfection in such a way that humanity was lost in the frenzy of purging.

Right. I think that we were designed to have the ability to choose. The Church is the bride of Christ, not his slave.

So do you believe that people who choose not to ally themselves with "God" but still lead productive and healthy lives will be punished along with the sinners, or people who rejected "God" and lived unhealthy, selfish, destructive lives?

No, I think God feels the same way. Like a father feels about his children, He wants us to flourish and progress. I think He takes great delight in our works. Being a Christian is not about becoming a God automaton. It is about aligning your path with God's path. Sometimes this may be incredibly miserable, but even misery, I've found, is incredibly enlightening.

And what exactly is "God"s path? Please be specific.

But no human has ever lived without harming themselves or another human being. Christians are as good at it as anyone, believe me! But I also believe that God helps those who listen to Him serve others more effectively.

And at the same time, he says that he's the only source of inspiration that can do so.

I think God finds it only fair that you decide as well. But one reaps what one sows. And we just as we cannot sow perfection, so shall we always reap sin. (Sin, if I recall correctly, literally means 'to miss the mark.')

That's how we learn. Then we go back, look at what we did wrong, and figure out how to do it right the next time. And by doing it right, I mean doing the right thing.

I think God's personality sustains this reality. Hopefully we will never have to experience what it means to exist without that sustaining force. But I think in our lives we take much of that for granted, and merely notice, as you said, the people we interact with.

A good friend once told me, "God is like the sun. Since it is unhealthy to look at the sun directly, we must rely upon its reflection in a pool. How clearly you see the sun depends on how much scum and dirt you allow to pollute that pool. Some people take very poor care of their pool, and so they can't see the sun's reflection very well. Others take very good care of their pool, and are able to see the sun's reflection clearly whenever they look."

My response is this: it's not wise to spend all of your time staring at that pool. Sometimes, you must look at the pool and realize what you have in common with that reflection, and then you must leave the pool and engage in your life, remembering what you found in common and exercising it. The sun is meant to show you what you already have but didn't recognize.

Whatever this god thing is, we have it inside of us. I'm certain of it. and "god" is only a word for it. It defies explanation, as everyone describes it differently, but the end result remains the same - whatever you see in "God", also exists inside of you. And my advocation of proactive self-determinism makes full use of that godliness in us, so that instead of obsessing over what's outside, we acknowledge and make full use of what's inside.

[Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by StalkerSolent

So this religion is a failsafe for people like you, who fear dying without really living?

I don't fear death. There are certain unpleasant means of death that I would prefer not to experience, but it's not something I obsess over. However, I do realize that I've messed a lot up in my life, and I'm glad that I serve a God who is able to work "all things together for good." I'm not certain why you think I'm not really living.

Hmm...a fair point. But how is "respect others and take responsibility for yourself" a religiously grounded code?

I'm not entirely sure what that entails, so it's hard to say. I imagine the details take inspiration from religion, but I could be wrong. (See my closing thoughts.)

It makes perfect sense. But it doesn't eliminate the fact that "God" inspired that sort of mentality, the mentality seeking perfection in such a way that humanity was lost in the frenzy of purging.

Sure, but that's not His fault. Darwin inspired the Nazis too, but that doesn't mean we should hate/ignore him or view him as an evil person. We should judge his work on its merits. Does the Bible instruct people to do evil things?

So do you believe that people who choose not to ally themselves with "God" but still lead productive and healthy lives will be punished along with the sinners, or people who rejected "God" and lived unhealthy, selfish, destructive lives?

I believe all people are sinners, including Christians. So all people who do not measure up to God's standard will be punished. And, actually, nobody can measure up to God's standard. That's why we've got to accept the Atonement.

And what exactly is "God"s path? Please be specific.

Well, broadly Christianity, but I think God guides individuals individually. So it's impossible to be really specific.

And at the same time, he says that he's the only source of inspiration that can do so.

Can do what?

That's how we learn. Then we go back, look at what we did wrong, and figure out how to do it right the next time. And by doing it right, I mean doing the right thing.

Agreed.

A good friend once told me, "God is like the sun. Since it is unhealthy to look at the sun directly, we must rely upon its reflection in a pool. How clearly you see the sun depends on how much scum and dirt you allow to pollute that pool. Some people take very poor care of their pool, and so they can't see the sun's reflection very well. Others take very good care of their pool, and are able to see the sun's reflection clearly whenever they look."

I think we are meant to be the pools reflecting God so that other people can see. Regrettably, even those of us who should know better sometimes take poor care of our pools.

Whatever this god thing is, we have it inside of us. I'm certain of it. and "god" is only a word for it. It defies explanation, as everyone describes it differently, but the end result remains the same - whatever you see in "God", also exists inside of you. And my advocation of proactive self-determinism makes full use of that godliness in us, so that instead of obsessing over what's outside, we acknowledge and make full use of what's inside.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another..." -Romans 2:14-15
I think that "this god thing" you are describing is the hollow echo of our Creator in our hearts. We desire to be like Him, deep inside. We value the truth, we desire His love. We instinctively elevate and produce a moral code. That's because we know we need something. And that something is God. Like I said, we were designed for Him.

And let me be clear. I am all for making full use of what is inside. But I don't think we are born with God inside our hearts. We are born with a void that God is meant to fill. Many of us fill it with other things, but I don't think these will satisfy in the long run.

reply to post by StalkerSolent

I don't fear death. There are certain unpleasant means of death that I would prefer not to experience, but it's not something I obsess over. However, I do realize that I've messed a lot up in my life, and I'm glad that I serve a God who is able to work "all things together for good." I'm not certain why you think I'm not really living.

Because "I don't know any other path that would give me the promise of a death without regrets" sounds like someone with some reservations regarding death. Perhaps fear was the wrong word. Regardless, you still sound like you have reservations.


I'm not entirely sure what that entails, so it's hard to say. I imagine the details take inspiration from religion, but I could be wrong. (See my closing thoughts.)


As long as you have feelings, "respect for others and responsibility for yourself" should sound entirely reasonable, religion or no religion. Of course, it's bound to get dicey...but I can imagine that religion has it's own gray areas as well.

Sure, but that's not His fault. Darwin inspired the Nazis too, but that doesn't mean we should hate/ignore him or view him as an evil person. We should judge his work on its merits. Does the Bible instruct people to do evil things?

Have you read Leviticus?

I believe all people are sinners, including Christians. So all people who do not measure up to God's standard will be punished. And, actually, nobody can measure up to God's standard. That's why we've got to accept the Atonement.

And if we do not accept this atonement, but still lead positive and healthy lives?

Well, broadly Christianity, but I think God guides individuals individually. So it's impossible to be really specific.

Hmm. Interesting, that. So there's no absolute description you can give me regarding "God"s path?

Can do what?

Show people how to live properly.

I think we are meant to be the pools reflecting God so that other people can see. Regrettably, even those of us who should know better sometimes take poor care of our pools.

I think "God" is a poor word for what we're supposed to be reflecting. That word carries connotations that bury the true essence of the reflection beneath a quagmire of expectations and whimsies.

And let me be clear. I am all for making full use of what is inside. But I don't think we are born with God inside our hearts. We are born with a void that God is meant to fill. Many of us fill it with other things, but I don't think these will satisfy in the long run.

Why not?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by StalkerSolent

Because "I don't know any other path that would give me the promise of a death without regrets" sounds like someone with some reservations regarding death. Perhaps fear was the wrong word. Regardless, you still sound like you have reservations.

I'd hate to die and leave behind a mess. I kinda think it's almost arrogant not to realize that I've made mistakes. Of course, if I'm dead, I guess I'm out of it, but everyone else isn't.
I'm not saying that Christianity is a get-out-of-responsibility free card, either. It's just that without a belief in God, when I die I will be nothing more than my actions, and I might regret many of them. (If I manage an average life, I still have a lot of choices ahead of me.)

As long as you have feelings, "respect for others and responsibility for yourself" should sound entirely reasonable, religion or no religion. Of course, it's bound to get dicey...but I can imagine that religion has it's own gray areas as well.

I'm fairly notorious for not having feelings. As for the creed, it sounds reasonable, but I can't analyze it without having specifics.

Have you read Leviticus?

Yes. I presume you're referencing the various mass killings carried out in the Old Testament during the conquest of the land of Canaan. 1) Those were specific instructions given to specific people at a specific time. They do not apply to Christians and never did. 2) God made it fairly clear that the actions taken were in judgment of the people who previously inhabited the land. The Jews were merely acting as executioners. I'd remind you that lots of people die every day. Like I said before, why should we single out the few that God has killed by directly commanding a few people to do it? God ultimately is responsible for all human deaths, right?

And if we do not accept this atonement, but still lead positive and healthy lives?

By whose standard?

Hmm. Interesting, that. So there's no absolute description you can give me regarding "God"s path?

Well, that depends on the context. I mean, God commands things that believers should do–that is in the Bible–but each person's specific calling will vary. So the Bible contains an "absolute" overview of the Christian's life, but God will move people differently.

Show people how to live properly.

Sure, because only when people come to Him are they fulfilling their purpose.

Why not?

Because the void is designed for God to occupy it.

reply to post by StalkerSolent


Well, I think I've gotten all the answers I'm looking for. Thank you for your time. If I think of anything else (and I most likely will, probably sooner rather than later) I definitely know who I'm going to ask. It's been a pleasure.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by StalkerSolent

 

Well, I think I've gotten all the answers I'm looking for. Thank you for your time.

Great! You're quite welcome–and thank you for the thought provoking discussion. Should you ever have any other questions, you know where to find me.

See folks? This is how a respectful and intelligent discussion between an atheist and a Christian plays out. I hope you all took notes.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
See folks? This is how a respectful and intelligent discussion between an atheist and a Christian plays out. I hope you all took notes.

The christian did not speak for all chirstians and the atheist did not speak for all athiests, but as a teedertodder recess ride compressed (15 minutes reading/riding time) NOT BAD AT ALL both arguements.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


You say "Yes we are God " . What , we are all God ? Not me ! You have a very low estimation of a God . Or maybe you just think your worthy of worship ?

reply to post by SimonPeter

John 4
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

We all have a spirit, and God sees everything through our eyes, which means he is omnipresent. Since God is spirit and he sees through our eyes, we are all pieces of God. Put all of us together, and you have God, so yes, we are God.

Not "I", but "we" are God.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


That makes sense to you? Do we worship ourselves ? Does God die ,lie and smoke dope ? Who sold you that line ? And you really believe that we are God ? Did we intelligently create the world and then ourselves ? If we are God how come we have so much trouble conducting our very simple lives ?

reply to post by SimonPeter


God is spirit, and the spirit never dies. We all have a spirit, we are spirit within a physical body. Our bodies may die, but our spirit never will, it is eternal.

Since energy cannot be created nor destroyed and our spirit is pure energy, that means we (spirit) are eternal.

We create the world around us with our five senses. Without those senses, you would not be here and would not be able to perceive anything, so yes, we are all co-creators. We create the world around us with our brains. Read Romans 1:20, those "invisible qualities" Paul is talking about are your thoughts and five senses. Though they are invisible, they are made and them being made is how they are unserstood.

When you speak of having trouble living our lives, you are speaking carnally and of worldly matters. The spirit has no trouble living, because it is perfect and not of this world (matter). Are you having trouble living right now minus worldly issues? No, because you are alive.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Read that verse again . You need a do over on that one . I do believe you are in JM Deweys world now .

reply to post by SimonPeter


The creation of the world he's talking about is when you were born. Since we create the world around us with our brains, that means the "beginning" of creation was our birth.

What are the invisible qualities of God in your opinion? Because they are our invisible qualities in my opinion, as in thoughts, emotions, smell, touch, hearing, memories, ideas etc. They are invisible, yet they are known by what is made. I think my idea lines up perfectly with what he is saying.

Please don't compare me to jm, I'm a little more open minded than he is I think.

Originally posted by LABTECH767

 

There is a god and he is good
IF there were no god how would any, whether scientifically explained or theological explained, ever exist.
Where I may differ from you is I refuse to blind myself to the universe for every great discovery brings us closer to an understanding of god (though we will never truly understand)

Our existence cannot be explained either way. What caused the Big Bang, or what created God? are both unanswerable, unless you supercede the univere(s), or God. Neither is possible.

So, discoveries may bring us closer to the next level, the process that created the human species, or earth, or the expansion of our universe. But not to prior of the Big Bang and not to God.

I find the concept of God is 'out of this world'. If there is a God he created the universe and then went on to do other things. Him staying around, watching us, getting angry, rewarding certain humans to the detriment of others, sending floods, having a 'son' Jesus. All of this is totally ridiculous to me. But maybe you can tell me how you reconcile these seemingly contradictory ideas.

As to Christianity, it is a religion. Religions are not created by the common people, they are created by those in power. They serve a purpose. The purpose is the powerful. The powerful benefit from wars. Don't you think so?

reply to post by SimonPeter

You say "Yes we are God " . What , we are all God ? Not me ! You have a very low estimation of a God . Or maybe you just think your worthy of worship ?

Or maybe you just don't appreciate the human species. You are a very self-degrading individual, aren't you? You believe you're a cockroach, barely worthy to even know such a being as "God". When will you get some self-respect?

That makes sense to you? Do we worship ourselves ? Does God die ,lie and smoke dope ? Who sold you that line ? And you really believe that we are God ? Did we intelligently create the world and then ourselves ? If we are God how come we have so much trouble conducting our very simple lives ?

Yes...you have very little understanding of what it truly means to be a human being. You have very little respect or appreciation for the human condition. You think being perfect and all-powerful would solve all of your problems, and anything less is just dirt. I feel sorry for you.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee
Jesus: Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth, I came to put, not peace, but a sword.

For I came to cause division, with man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law.

Indeed, a aman's enemies will be the persons of his own household.

He that has greater affection for father or mother than for ME is not worthy of ME.

And whoever does not accept his TORTURE STAKE and FOLLOW after me, is not worthy of ME. (Mt 10:34-38)

You must accept torture and death - for 'God', government, slave master.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


And you didn't understand that Christ did not come to serve drinks and ##snipped## . He came to separate those in sin from those who love their sin . He came to put strife between the lovers of the sin and those who actually were repentant of the dirty sinful ways . The KJV version says take up your cross and follow me or rise up out of the filth and follow me . I suppose you like your filthy sins and refuse to repent and follow God and the Gospel of Jesus whom he sent .

reply to post by SimonPeter


Careful there. You're toeing the line between righteousness and hypocrisy. No matter how good you think you are, you are still no better than the rest of us in the eyes of your god. Love us and love yourself, and never ever judge.