America's dawn

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

No I see it, I see it believe me. Your input has been registered and will not go in vain.

I appreciate your words, and apologize for any terseness that may have been present towards you. I have put hundreds of hours of effort into actually coming up with solutions in an "open source" manner, but then when I post them as a "brief" outline as a series of threads, I receive minimal response. All it requires is participation, but so very few actually have any motivation to do so.

And yet, the threads that complain receive page after page of replies and participation even though a new one is posted nearly every week. I have worked through massive debilitating pain and serious health issues just to help. I wont ever stop working towards it, but given the prevalent attitude, I thought it would have a different result.

And I agree fully on the wholehearted attempt to sow seeds into the midst of chaos. Just by being here and trying to have a civil conversation about it is a seed sown. Now Im no controller, I just listen. And when you sit and listen you hear the voices that want change, drown out the voices that want stability. They want it so much, the thought has taken shape and formed a kind of forest fire, threatening to engulf and destroy all that has been made before hand. There is a lot of love, and a lot of hope invested in this fire. Its sort of like a cleansing, a cutting of an infested wound so it may bleed further, then heal.

I just dont want to be among the good cells that gets cleaned out in the process.

While there may be a need for a cleansing fire, of sorts, I firmly believe it does not need to burn anyone. Is that the way its heading and the way the controllers are steering society? Without a shadow of a doubt we are heading back into a cycle of destruction, by all of our choices.

I dont think we need to change what has been made, or the structures themselves.. only the way we approach and use them. They can be used to control, as they are now, or used to enable, which will create a better life for every single person on the planet. And given enough time, could lead to an age where we not only teach our children that anything is possible, but also teach them how to achieve it together.

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by openlocks

 

Government is a managerial function, meaning it is intent on maintaining the status-quo. Leaders and managers, as anyone in business knows, are two very distinctly different things. A leader promotes change for adaptation, while a manager maintains the functioning of the system or organization. As you've so astutely stated, we need leaders not managers.

Which puts me in mind of Dr. Ron Paul. When a potential leader arrives on the scene it is the manager's function to make sure that individual is summarily demoted to janitorial duty. Or in his case, forced retirement.

Do you have a solution for that dilemma since it has become clear that elections are nothing more than a management style with a few bells and whistles attached. So how does one make that understood to people who insist elections are our only tool for change simply because that's how it was set up in the company policy manual (constitution)? The very people being harmed by the rules say there must be NO changes in that manual.

I'm stumped.

This solution is fairly simple, though admittedly difficult to actualize. First, one must align their own principles and outlook on life to be in accordance with the fact that Government and its Corporate entities, are illegitimate constructs of authority. They have a monopoly on violence, thus are able to oppress all resistance and change. Every conversation about Government, or the Corporate entities it empowers, should revolve around these facts. You must enlighten/remind those around you to these facts. Many people already intuitively feel this way, but are caught in a web of populist thinking driven largely by Mainstream Media and Government propaganda. Just your presence as an island of rebelliousness to the status-quo, will bring a lot of people closer to you. It will give them hope and an example of what might be possible.

Second, one must align their actions in life around these truths. Becoming self-employed, not paying taxes, not voting or engaging in political partisanship, not using mega-banks, not shopping at or spending money with mega-corporations... are all a start. At some point, though, there must be an even greater sacrifice given. There will come a time when people of like mind must come together to organize a populist movement intent on the deconstruction, not merely reformation, of this beast. OWS, was a start, but it was just the beginning of something much more profound. Surely, this is an action that must be paid in blood, as all revolutions are. So one must be willing to sacrifice their own life, as all true revolutionaries are.

The most important thing to remain focused on, is what we all know. Things are not right and things need to change, and the people who are most sincere about that change are going to have to sacrifice a lot. The question is, what is your "tipping point"?

reply to post by openlocks


Nice words, but allow me to ask you this: what do you know about sacrifice?

Are Americans prepared to face years upon years of instability and chaos after said revolution takes place? Are you ready to see your country torn apart? Perhaps on the hands of Americans themselves?

What bothers me is the fact that no one is taking responsibility for any of this. Its all blamed on the big government, the corporations etc etc. While as a foreigner living on American soil I see the partisanship dividing your society as we speak. For a while I tried to talk people into stopping the nonsense. That somehow republicans are better off than democrats or vice versa, but i dont bother anymore. People dont want unity. They want to simply speak their minds and let someone else deal with the consequences.

Are you ready to become like Egypt?

reply to post by Serdgiam


Ah, youve noticed it too. The constant whining, the foul cries, and when you try to put a well thought of argument to balance the chaos you get very little support.

Thats because the wheels have started turning my friend, they will not stop to a peg or two.

And at first I thought it was the controllers pulling all of this off, but im not so sure any more.

Ive been responded to with utter hatred when I tried talking sense into the complaining crowd.

Your well thought of open source solutions may only go so far, the crowds have already been emboldened and enabled by the revolutions in the middle east.

They will not listen to you, save the few who are already self thinkers. They cant see that the hatred theyve accumulated over the years will cause some serious destruction if unleashed.

Oh, I totally think the devil has a lot to do with this. The crowds are wonderfully open to evil suggestion.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by openlocks

 

Nice words, but allow me to ask you this: what do you know about sacrifice?

Are Americans prepared to face years upon years of instability and chaos after said revolution takes place? Are you ready to see your country torn apart? Perhaps on the hands of Americans themselves?

What bothers me is the fact that no one is taking responsibility for any of this. Its all blamed on the big government, the corporations etc etc. While as a foreigner living on American soil I see the partisanship dividing your society as we speak. For a while I tried to talk people into stopping the nonsense. That somehow republicans are better off than democrats or vice versa, but i dont bother anymore. People dont want unity. They want to simply speak their minds and let someone else deal with the consequences.

Are you ready to become like Egypt?

I certainly get where you're coming from but it IS the corporations and government that foment disunity and inject pro and anti memes into the mix to avoid, and if that isn't possible, to infiltrate and destroy from within any unity that is attempted.

No one is ready to see this country torn apart but that won't stop it from happening. I'm sure Egyptians didn't want to see Egypt torn apart, either. Or Syrians or Libyans and on and on. Again, the infiltration of a few agents provocateur is usually enough to get the ball rolling and the people will be forced to choose a side whether they want to or not.

jmo

reply to post by frazzle


Im sorry Ive to question your entire first paragraph. The American government owes its strengh largely to its hard working middle class, its military, and its intelligent corporations. Intelligent corps run the show because theyre run by people who are on average better at reaching their goals than the rest of society combined.

They know for a fact that the people on the street arent smart enough to control their own lives, let alone corporations and governments. So they give them what they want. Its an ugly cycle but not one that takes place without two sides contributing to it.

But hey, governments and corporations can still make money and prosper if the crowds stopped being dumb all at once. There are examples of this in Europe.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by frazzle

 

Im sorry Ive to question your entire first paragraph. The American government owes its strengh largely to its hard working middle class, its military, and its intelligent corporations. Intelligent corps run the show because theyre run by people who are on average better at reaching their goals than the rest of society combined.

They know for a fact that the people on the street arent smart enough to control their own lives, let alone corporations and governments. So they give them what they want. Its an ugly cycle but not one that takes place without two sides contributing to it.

But hey, governments and corporations can still make money and prosper if the crowds stopped being dumb all at once. There are examples of this in Europe.

I'm not sure where you are originally from, but the comment that "They know for a fact that the people on the street arent smart enough to control their own lives.." is such a totalitarian sentiment birthed out of a delusional sense of superiority that I wonder if you have any knowledge of this countries history. The American government owes its strength to itself, because it masterfully manipulated and took everything and anything it wanted. The American people, on the other hand, is what have progressed this nation's social reforms through rebellion after rebellion. The American economy owes its strength starting with African Slave Labor, then mass production blue collar low-wage labor, in combination with war after war, and sanction after sanction, oppressing and destabilizing all competing nation's in the world.

I suggest you read Howard Zinn's book, "The People's History of the United States of America", for a better understanding about our history. Look, I understand you probably came to this country looking for stability and success, and for the time being you may find a bit of both. But I feel it is important for you to understand the mess you've stepped into. We are by definition a revolutionary society. More blood will be spilled in the streets and more hard times are coming no matter which path we choose. The question is, are we, as humans, ready to step outside of these archaic systems into a truly wonderous and empathetic age, or are we going to continue the cycle of bronze aged social organization?

And no... Europe is not a "good example". They too are on the verge of massive instability and uprisings. As is just about every nation on this earth. People are tired of this way of life, and are almost ready to demand its removal. And to answer your question, I am willing to sacrifice everything because I understand that this is part of the ebb and flow of life. We must find a truly sustainable and just balance as a species, and the path we are currently on is not the way to do so.

reply to post by openlocks


Hey Im not claiming to be a know it all regarding your history, but I have seen two things since I came here, Americans in general are hard working people with a sense of superiority, a lack of interest in world affairs due to such sense of superiority, and a memory of a fish. They are given a lot of opportunities. When I came here my husband and I had nothing just like most immigrants. (We had $500 in our bank account and some jewelry to live by afew months) He got himself a job, did the right moves, worked his butt off, and now after 3 years, we own a car, a stable income, not a lot of savings, but our outlook is bright. Much much brighter than what could have been accomplished with hard work alone back at home. You know why? Because there are opportunities in every corner of this country. People respect honesty, hard work, and a healthy sense of self esteem. You dont have to bribe every officer in the gov to pay a bill in time before they cut off your heat. Get my drift?

The opportunities you have are so numerous, youd have to be a complete moron not to be able to have a proper life, job, bright future etc. But as with every game, there are rules you need to learn, and learn quickly. We steered clear of areas of the country that had high racism. We started off in an educated state: Massachusetts. We built contacts, improved our language skills, did not resist change, maintained civility, stayed away from unproductive pursuits like debating politics and religion.

If we had college degrees from the US, wed even be better off because when we came here, no one would even hire us because our resumes were from outside of the country where they couldnt confirm anything from.

To compare your state of affairs to that of countries like Egypt and Libya is seriously nothing but ungreatfulness. We have worked very hard, and continue to do so, and reap the benefits. So what you all are complaining about is simply laughable where I come from. I come from the Middle East.

So a bunch of people got rich due to the host of opportunities in your country, now theyre seen as a threat because they inluence your every aspect of your lives? Dont let them influence it then. Nobody is forcing anything down anybodys throat I assure you.

reply to post by nusnus


I respect your outlook on life and hope the best for you. And I agree, to compare the quality of life here to, say, some places in the Middle East, is ungrateful. Of course, that is not what I am saying though. I don't know, I think it may be very difficult for you to understand, and I don't want to spoil your perception. One day you will understand...

Anyways, have a good rest of the week!

reply to post by openlocks


You dont think I see the problem in the system here? I see it as clear as daylight.

You have a less than desireable immigration system thats making people angry. It needs fixing.
You have a healthcare thats riddled with greedy insurance companies driving the cost of healthcare higher every years. It needs fixing.
You have an educational system thats loosing fresh blood, imagination and creativity to lackluster old school methods that wont cut it anymore. It needs fixing.

But most of all, there is a cultural decline in every aspect of your lives. From lets say, lack of respect to authority and parents, to glorification of consumerism, to imitation of superficial values etc. So no matter how much of a revolution you decide to have to break the corruption thats clogging your system, said revolution isnt going to change the root of the problem: peoples attitudes, their empty whining and sense of irresponsibility that tends to blame everybody else ( everybody else being the rich and the powerful). The less than rich have a lot of responsibility and capability too. They just dont see it. Its so mind boggling to me though.

Its not like youve been suffering under a 30 year rule of a mob-president who sucked all the countries resources and bullied every man who stood in his way into oblivion, like Egypt. You people have so much that to people who have so little like me, youre getting comfortable, and lazy, and whiny lol its mind boggling. Is it going to take a new immigrant to remind you of the power of your constitution? The rights it gives you is beyond desireable.

So what is it? Help me understand what i seem to be missing in the picture.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by frazzle

 

Im sorry Ive to question your entire first paragraph. The American government owes its strengh largely to its hard working middle class, its military, and its intelligent corporations. Intelligent corps run the show because theyre run by people who are on average better at reaching their goals than the rest of society combined.

They know for a fact that the people on the street arent smart enough to control their own lives, let alone corporations and governments. So they give them what they want. Its an ugly cycle but not one that takes place without two sides contributing to it.

But hey, governments and corporations can still make money and prosper if the crowds stopped being dumb all at once. There are examples of this in Europe.

Question away. And then maybe you can tell me why the government and corporations are doing everything in their power (which is all consuming) to destroy the working middle class. One out of five households in the US now receives food stamps, are you saying this is what they want?

I can recall a time not so very long ago when there WAS no such thing as food stamps, there were independent small farmers who didn't charge four arms and a leg for a jug of milk or a bushel of corn. REAL corn, REAL milk. Then the mega ag and mega processing corps took over, all made possible by Uncle Sam's inside dealing with the corporations, and now the "food" fails to nourish either bodies or brains. Purely by accident, of course.

This is not a cycle, its a complete takeover from the top down. If you can't see that you must be very young. Or something.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by openlocks

 

You dont think I see the problem in the system here? I see it as clear as daylight.

You have a less than desireable immigration system thats making people angry. It needs fixing.
You have a healthcare thats riddled with greedy insurance companies driving the cost of healthcare higher every years. It needs fixing.
You have an educational system thats loosing fresh blood, imagination and creativity to lackluster old school methods that wont cut it anymore. It needs fixing.

But most of all, there is a cultural decline in every aspect of your lives. From lets say, lack of respect to authority and parents, to glorification of consumerism, to imitation of superficial values etc. So no matter how much of a revolution you decide to have to break the corruption thats clogging your system, said revolution isnt going to change the root of the problem: peoples attitudes, their empty whining and sense of irresponsibility that tends to blame everybody else ( everybody else being the rich and the powerful). The less than rich have a lot of responsibility and capability too. They just dont see it. Its so mind boggling to me though.

Its not like youve been suffering under a 30 year rule of a mob-president who sucked all the countries resources and bullied every man who stood in his way into oblivion, like Egypt. You people have so much that to people who have so little like me, youre getting comfortable, and lazy, and whiny lol its mind boggling. Is it going to take a new immigrant to remind you of the power of your constitution? The rights it gives you is beyond desireable.

So what is it? Help me understand what i seem to be missing in the picture.

edit on 17-7-2013 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

Well, here we have some agreement. You cite the immigration system and the greed of the insurance corps specifically, so tell me who controls those. Surely its not joe and jane hardworking public.

You also cite the education system and you can't know how much I agree with you on that. So who is in charge of it? You may or may not be aware of the current mass exodus from that system by parents who are tired of the schools promoting irresponsibility and disrespect and are opting to homeschool their children. This is the only way people can influence a failed system run by the government, to take personal charge of their responsibilities and I applaud them all for it. This is no assurance that the government will not make homeschooling illegal and order CPS to start abducting homeschool kids from their homes ~ for their own good, dontchaknow.

Being from the middle east you can probably tell me more about this "mob-president for 30 years in Egypt". If you're referring to Morsi, I was under the impression that he was only president for a year before the mob-army deposed him. Matter of fact I'm pretty sure I've heard that he was the only democratically elected Egyptian president in well over 30 years. Has someone lied to me?

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by openlocks

 

You dont think I see the problem in the system here? I see it as clear as daylight.

You have a less than desireable immigration system thats making people angry. It needs fixing.
You have a healthcare thats riddled with greedy insurance companies driving the cost of healthcare higher every years. It needs fixing.
You have an educational system thats loosing fresh blood, imagination and creativity to lackluster old school methods that wont cut it anymore. It needs fixing.

But most of all, there is a cultural decline in every aspect of your lives. From lets say, lack of respect to authority and parents, to glorification of consumerism, to imitation of superficial values etc. So no matter how much of a revolution you decide to have to break the corruption thats clogging your system, said revolution isnt going to change the root of the problem: peoples attitudes, their empty whining and sense of irresponsibility that tends to blame everybody else ( everybody else being the rich and the powerful). The less than rich have a lot of responsibility and capability too. They just dont see it. Its so mind boggling to me though.

Its not like youve been suffering under a 30 year rule of a mob-president who sucked all the countries resources and bullied every man who stood in his way into oblivion, like Egypt. You people have so much that to people who have so little like me, youre getting comfortable, and lazy, and whiny lol its mind boggling. Is it going to take a new immigrant to remind you of the power of your constitution? The rights it gives you is beyond desireable.

So what is it? Help me understand what i seem to be missing in the picture.

edit on 17-7-2013 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

You are merely touching the surface level of the ills that plague this society, but you are correct on many of these issues. However, to call us "whiny and lazy" is just disrespectful and ignorant. You, as an immigrant from a nation (where are you from?) that you insinuate is under developed, have many things you can teach us. I have traveled to many "Third World" nations, so I am well aware of the differences. But calling us "whiny and lazy" will only make your life miserable, because you sound like a bit of a snob. The thing you don't seem to understand is Americans don't want to become Egypt! We don't want to let this nation fall apart, as it is!

You can call that "whiny" or whatever, but here in America we call that courageous and patriotic. The Fore Fathers of this nation lived in better conditions than most of the world, but would you call them "whiny and lazy" for revolting against their British oppressors? Egyptians have it better than Palestinians, would you call them "whiny and lazy" for revolting against their oppressors? Do you call people "whiny and lazy" for wanting a better life? I don't think you would. So don't call us "whiny and lazy" when we are trying to stand up and fix the things that you pointed out as problems with this nation. We are tired of our Government bombing and exploiting other nations peoples. We are tired of our Government shredding up our Constitution in the name of greed and control. We are tired of our culture's decline. We are tired of many things, none which make us "whiny and lazy".

reply to post by frazzle


Look, this whole subject started with the OP demanding some sort of a revolution right? And me actually questioning said revolution. I question the need for such dire measures because I dont think your country is in dire measures. The mob-president I was talking about was Mubarak btw. And no it doesnt matter which country Im from in the ME because theyre all pretty much diseased with the same sheepish mindset of clap for your dictator so you may survive BS. The mentalities are the same.

Im happy to have touched a nerve and managed to offend you as well. Not that that was my intention but no matter what your corporations do, they cannot undo the rights you already have. When I say lazy and whiny, I mean people who sit on their butts complaining on their PCs, in forums such as these, without going the extra step like writing to their congressmen, like pressurizing congress (although there might be a bit much pressurizing going on since it looks like everyone who has money can pressurize the US congress now) am not sure honestly. But talk is cheap. Claiming that youre being had over by companies is cheap. Get proof, get a lawyer, go sue them. These are also American rights are they not? If you take my words personally, then you are probably guilty of not doing enough. If youre not offended, youve done whatever you can anyway.

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by frazzle

 

Look, this whole subject started with the OP demanding some sort of a revolution right? And me actually questioning said revolution. I question the need for such dire measures because I dont think your country is in dire measures. The mob-president I was talking about was Mubarak btw. And no it doesnt matter which country Im from in the ME because theyre all pretty much diseased with the same sheepish mindset of clap for your dictator so you may survive BS. The mentalities are the same.

Im happy to have touched a nerve and managed to offend you as well. Not that that was my intention but no matter what your corporations do, they cannot undo the rights you already have. When I say lazy and whiny, I mean people who sit on their butts complaining on their PCs, in forums such as these, without going the extra step like writing to their congressmen, like pressurizing congress (although there might be a bit much pressurizing going on since it looks like everyone who has money can pressurize the US congress now) am not sure honestly. But talk is cheap. Claiming that youre being had over by companies is cheap. Get proof, get a lawyer, go sue them. These are also American rights are they not? If you take my words personally, then you are probably guilty of not doing enough. If youre not offended, youve done whatever you can anyway.

Offended? You got that from my response to you? I was agreeing with most of your points, so who's being whiny? And when you say "your country" I get the impression that it is not also "your" country, not that it matters all that much since people all over the world are whining about the country in question and with good cause.

Admittedly, going on seven decades of life I actually have become quite lazy but if you stacked the letters and phone calls I've made to congressmen over those decades, along with the form letters I've received back telling me that "they know best", you'd realize how little the opinions of the people matter to the people in charge. If you need one small example of how it works, congressmen openly admitted that messages from the people were running 9 to 1 against TARP and they passed it anyway. They've also passed laws specifically protecting corps such as Monsanto and the pharmaceutical companies FROM legal actions by provably injured people.

I also agree with you on Mubarak, he was just one more middle eastern US/Israel plant. Then he balked. Morsi balked as well. You don't balk against uncle sam and survive it.

And as I keep saying, there will be no revolution because the American people can't agree on what's for lunch. There will be a civil war, just like those in the middle east because the powers that be need a distraction from their own culpability in the failed experiment known as crony capitalism.

reply to post by frazzle


Sorry my second paragraph was addressed to openlocks who seems to have gotten offended...i forgot to add the respond thingy in there..my bad..

Ive only been in the US for a couple of years so I dont really feel American, heck, Ive been moving countries all my life so I dont feel much like i belong amywhere, but i grew up mostly in the ME and its where my family is from (Im Turkish by blood).

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by frazzle

 

Sorry my second paragraph was addressed to openlocks who seems to have gotten offended...i forgot to add the respond thingy in there..my bad..

Ive only been in the US for a couple of years so I dont really feel American, heck, Ive been moving countries all my life so I dont feel much like i belong amywhere, but i grew up mostly in the ME and its where my family is from (Im Turkish by blood).

edit on 30-7-2013 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

No apology is necessary, there are many Americans who don't feel very American anymore. Its hard to recognize the country in recent years. Not that what it turned into hasn't been coming all along, but there were other ways it could have gone, like for instance if Kennedy hadn't been killed.

Honestly I feel like we owe your country (Turkey) a huge apology, along with so many others.