Female inmates sterilized in California prisons without approval

reply to post by seabag


i would not go as far as that poster to say that its a full on gross violation of human rights but i could also be wrong

www.vhemt.org... only thing i could find on it from limited searching so no idea as to credibility of the source but they give a few examples of rights that the UN gaurentees

1979 Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women CEDAW recognized that women have “The same rights to decide freely and responsibly on the number and spacing of their children and to have access to the information, education and means to enable them to exercise these rights.” Zero is a number, so the right to not breed may be inferred. The US is one of the few countries which has not yet ratified CEDAW. this one comes close to guaranteeing it but as the usa did not sign the treaty(or ratified if it makes a difference) i dont think it comes into play

en.wikipedia.org...

reproductiverights.org... pdf from a group that wants to make it a human right but so far as i can tell has yet to succeed

so in response to the other poster not you seabag its not a guaranteed human right to reproduce or at least the law does not explain it as such

reply to post by LABTECH767


i looked and could not find a link that said that reproduction is a human right but if you got a link ill be glad to look at it,i have to walk my dogs so ill be back to the thread in about 20-30 minutes but thank you for your reply

reply to post by Ghost375


In situations where there is a huge discrepancy in power, such as inmate vs. prison, a little pressure is all that is needed to eliminate the perception of choice. Sure they agreed to the procedures, but did all of those doing so feel that they had the option of saying no?

reply to post by Ghost375

While it wasn't forced, it sounds like the doctors did sort of pressure the women into doing it.

But don’t gloss over the one word in your quote that has a lot of meaning – “he suggested”

That word, at least to me, doesn’t help substantiate the coercion charge.

If we were going to sterilize someone, who would really be the best people to target??
Criminals with 5 kids are the best target.

I see your point. Think about this though, if these women actually wanted the procedure (they may have), and the state wouldn’t provide it, we’d be hearing about how California denies inmates medical procedures.

Of course, I vehemently oppose such practices.

Well I vehemently oppose abortions but according to law we have to respect the choice of the woman.

reply to post by seabag

I see your point. Think about this though, if these women actually wanted the procedure (they may have), and the state wouldn’t provide it, we’d be hearing about how California denies inmates medical procedures.

The doctor definitely has a duty to inform a female patient that is fertile if further pregnancies might have detrimental health consequences. If the doctor didn't do it, they would risk a lawsuit later.

I hate to agree on this point(not because ghost375 has the opinion), but some people should not have children, not from a eugenics standpoint, but because they will fail in being good parents. Repeat criminals fall into this category, IMO. It is a shame, because we don't know how many possible 'Einsteins' may have been ruined by hideous parenting.
But I am not saying that we need forced sterilization of repeat convicts.

reply to post by butcherguy

I hate to agree on this point(not because ghost375 has the opinion), but some people should not have children, not from a eugenics standpoint, but because they will fail in being good parents. Repeat criminals fall into this category, IMO. It is a shame, because we don't know how many possible 'Einsteins' may have been ruined by hideous parenting.

I agree. I know a lot of people who should NEVER be parents. It’s certainly not my choice though.

But I am not saying that we need forced sterilization of repeat convicts.

Absolutely not! This is US of A not communist China.

Having said that, let’s not pretend there is forced sterilization going on in California prisons or anywhere else on US soil. That is not what this story says….at all.

Nah, I cant say this would bother me much even if true. This is one of very few aeas where more government pressure is a good idea, to keep some basic standards for future parents.

Wont somebody think of the children??

I have been viewing this site for years and of course the right have no problem with anything considered morally wrong.

All they see is, less dark skinned babies growing up to be scary dark adults.

reply to post by seabag

Having said that, let’s not pretend there is forced sterilization going on in California prisoners or anywhere else on US soil. That is not what this story says….at all.

That's right.
I found no actual coercion noted in the stories linked.

I wonder if anyone thought of giving them an incentive? As in a shortened sentence if they submitted to sterilization? It is still walking a very fine line, but I would be good with it!

Originally posted by Onslaught2996
I have been viewing this site for years and of course the right have no problem with anything considered morally wrong.

All they see is, less dark skinned babies growing up to be scary dark adults.

So you managed a completely silly stereotype and pulling the race card all in one post. Nice work!

If the right have no problem with anything morally wrong then why are we the only one's opposed to abortion? Since the left is so in favor of abortion and the woman's choice, I can't image why you wouldn't be all for sterilization.

reply to post by butcherguy

That's right.
I found no actual coercion noted in the stories linked.

Nope…

I wonder if anyone thought of giving them an incentive? As in a shortened sentence if they submitted to sterilization? It is still walking a very fine line, but I would be good with it!

I would support that program. Then again, the military offers “incentives” like educational benefits and we hear people say they were bribed into joining.

Sometimes you just can’t win.

reply to post by seabag


Abortion but are you against the death penalty. I'm guessing not and of course you do not see the hypocrisy in that.
You cannot scream that all life is sacred and then ask for the death of people you deemed unworthy. Life is life, no matter what you think.

reply to post by seabag


Is it also not the right who are fighting the good cause of denying gays the right to marry?

Originally posted by Onslaught2996
reply to post by seabag

 

Abortion but are you against the death penalty. I'm guessing not and of course you do not see the hypocrisy in that.
You cannot scream that all life is sacred and then ask for the death of people you deemed unworthy. Life is life, no matter what you think.

Some people deserve to die....

Innocent children aren't deserving of death - convicted murderers are. It's really very simple.

How can you be in favor of abortion (preventing the birth of a child) but against sterilization (preventing the birth of a child). That makes no sense. And then to sit there and lecture anyone about morals....

If abortion is a legal choice then sterilization should be a legal choice. That is consistency!

Originally posted by Onslaught2996
I have been viewing this site for years and of course the right have no problem with anything considered morally wrong.

All they see is, less dark skinned babies growing up to be scary dark adults.

Wow, what an asinine statement.

reply to post by FatherStacks

If an inmate has 5-7 children and is still a repeat offender, how does sterilizing mom help the innocent children she already has? What is the point that beyond which a criminal is having too many children? Three? Four? Who decides that? Incompetent parenting happens in all socioeconomic levels, so why not go after the white collar inmates? What sorts of crimes qualify you for targeted sterilization? I understand, but not necessarily agree with, the argument that this reduces the burden placed on states for welfare assistance, but this is a really blurry and dangerous area to be heading (IMO).

I will be the first to say that the 'justice' system in Western nations needs reform. US has more people incarcerated than anywhere in the world (Per capita). Hell, it houses 20% of prisoners, of the entire world...

At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population[31] and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population (adult inmates).[9]

Those are staggering numbers.

BUT:

No matter what system of government it is. A socialist one, democracy, authoritarian, feudal, etc... If someone is popping out kids like kitty litters and doesn't take care of them, I see nothing wrong with giving mothers or fathers the option of having their tubes tied or vas deferens snipped.

In some cases it should be mandatory.

How many baby moms must a guy have or how many underweight uncared for babies must a crap mother have, before someone steps in to fix the major problems they are creating with their irresponsibility?

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


proof positive that eugenicists still exist
and need to be flushed out of the gene-pool, post haste

Originally posted by TheMagus
reply to post by RalagaNarHallas

 

proof positive that eugenicists still exist
and need to be flushed out of the gene-pool, post haste

What proof?

Will you please present it because I've seen none and I read the same article you did.

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by seabag

Originally posted by TheMagus
reply to post by RalagaNarHallas

 

proof positive that eugenicists still exist
and need to be flushed out of the gene-pool, post haste

What proof?

Will you please present it because I've seen none and I read the same article you did.

Thanks in advance!

edit on 7-7-2013 by seabag because: (no reason given)

go back to the beginning and read all those posts being made by "people" who are "good" with this, or better yet,
read the comments on the source article.
including one saying "lets forget about ethics for a minute "
[which is precisely what those who performed those sterilizations did, and those who "see no evil" may be deficient of ]
then there are the fools who believe they'll be paying less taxes if "useless eaters"
are eliminated, never mind that they themselves are considered such by those behind this.

there's your proof of the 1st part of my statement.

being in prison it's quite easy to get a prisoner's signature for something or other, throw away all but the last page, wherein said signature is written and append a sterilization agreement, or otherwise falsify a signature, never mind that obvious pressure was applied, it should never have been brought up in the 1st place.

and it's a sure bet that money was a motivation.

but I agree with you, that some "people" need to be killed.

alas, PRISM and T&C keep me from elaborating...

you've often admitted you've made your own mistakes, regarding decisions
hmmm?

so judge not, buddy.
that is beneath you



you're welcome

edited post became a double see next page