Fallujah will be a nightmare

Originally posted by SgtNFury

Originally posted by marg6043
People this is about lives no american lives but Iraqi lives by the way one third of the population in Fallujah stayed in the city. Why? because that is their city and those are their homes they don't have a "Hilton" down the road to stay in.

You know how many are going to die for staying in the homes they had all their lives.

100 thousand peopel live in that city.

The coallition "thinks" that is 14 hundred insurgents, whao, it seems that killing about 60 percent of the people in that city is worth it.

In the first place, your post is difficult to read......."Hilton"?

"You know how many are going to die for staying in the homes they had all their lives." Huh?


"peopel".....is English your native language? Or can you just not spell? Same applies to 'coallition" and "whao"

The insurgents in Fallujah must be ruthlessly destroyed, with no survivors left. It's actually that simple.

Maybe you didnt read Marg's signature- She's latina and i think she does a damn good job at expressing her views, in spite of her handicap- Not everyone here is an "author""scholar"- or "writer" please stop knocking people because of their ability to post impecable English. Its ignorant.

Thats what their contract says... Unfortuneately thats not what happens in real life. People will get sent to their death. Perhaps the commanding officer doesnt see it as a suicide mission per-se. But they will die... at the command of their superiors.

This is exactly what im talking about. It happens, whether you like it or not. People are going to die whether you like it or not

And because you have launched a war, just to kill any Muslims you can point your gun at, in response to 9/11, may Allah give the Mujahideen strength, and the will to repel the occupuing forces from their lands.

Whatever it takes.

Originally posted by cstyle226
And because you have launched a war, just to kill any Muslims you can point your gun at, in response to 9/11, may Allah give the Mujahideen strength, and the will to repel the occupuing forces from their lands.

Whatever it takes.

We are not there to just kill moslems, what was done to us on 911 was done by a faction of Islam. Islam does not even support the actions taken by the terrorists. If it was just for killing moslems, that could be done right here in the US. That was a cheapshot and you know it. We can live peacefully with moslems, but not the fanatics.

We are not occupiers, we are liberators. I take it you liked Saddam?

Saddam was an oppressor, too.

That doesn't change the fact that liberation had nothing to do with the invasion.

First it was weapons, then it was Saddam is a dictator...sure, whatever excuse the foolish people will accept to continue the world conquest.

And for the person who said, you can't say it's about oil, because we are going into Fallujah...I will tell you it is about oil, because the Mujahideen, from Fallujah and elsewhere, will never allow you to casually steal their resources, and pretend you are using it to help Iraqi's when in reality your corporations are busy dividing up the plunder amongst themselves.

Your greed will be your downfall.

I'ld like to comment a little more on the Saddam question...

It's funny that Oil Baron Bush I brought us the first Gulf War, and Oil Baron Bush II brought the second one. How come Clinton did not invade, because he had no financial interests for his own personal gain, and the Bush Monarchy has?

How about your friends the Royal Family in Saudi Arabia?

Are they not oppressors? Or are they complicit with your oil barons, that you are willing to look the other way?

If Saddam had been a little more friendly, allowing you access to the oil as Saudi Arabia does, but continued to oppress his people, as Saudi Arabia does, would the invasion have ever occurred?

I highly doubt it. It is not liberation, it is financial cooperation you are after.



[edit on 8-11-2004 by cstyle226]

Originally posted by cstyle226
I'ld like to comment a little more on the Saddam question...

It's funny that Oil Baron Bush I brought us the first Gulf War, and Oil Baron Bush II brought the second one. How come Clinton did not invade, because he had no financial interests for his own personal gain, and the Bush Monarchy has?

How about your friends the Royal Family in Saudi Arabia?

Are they not oppressors? Or are they complicit with your oil barons, that you are willing to look the other way?

If Saddam had been a little more friendly, allowing you access to the oil as Saudi Arabia does, but continued to oppress his people, as Saudi Arabia does, would the invasion have ever occurred?

I highly doubt it. It is not liberation, it is financial cooperation you are after.



[edit on 8-11-2004 by cstyle226]

In a sense I agree with you, the Saudi royals are a bit oppressive to women. The males in the society have all the power.

So you think we just come for the oil? Do you relaize that if we set our mind to it and got away from our dependance on it , that the middle east would wither away? It is all they have and they get good market value for it.

Yea we did support Saddam when it suited our needs and that does not make it right, but that was a different time in a different world.


We have the same thing in this country, let me ask you a question then, as a moslem, would you condone abortion? And if not would you condone the killing of the doctors that conduct these procedures?

Well, I actually was born in America and live in Indiana, and am not that religious.

My personal belief is that people should stop having babies they can't afford. I think abortion is wrong, but whatever a person wants to do with themselves is fine. Instead of letting the kid suffer through a miserable life, it is probably better.

I hear about this culture of life Bush is always talking about, yet look at all the poverty and dying...

These people care more about the unborn then they do the alive.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by cstyle226]

Oh yeah good point, they had no oil yet Americans died to save moslem lives.....interesting how soon this is forgotten.

How come the antiwar folk in here didnt call Clinton Satan for what he did there and in Somalia? Right, they didnt have oil either did they?


Getting more interesting by the minute.

Originally posted by cstyle226
Well, I actually was born in America and live in Indiana, and am not that religious.

My personal belief is that people should stop having babies they can't afford. I think abortion is wrong, but whatever a person wants to do with themselves is fine. Instead of letting the kid suffer through a miserable life, it is probably better.

I hear about this culture of life Bush is always talking about, yet look at all the poverty and dying...

These people care more about the unborn then they do the alive.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by cstyle226]

So as a moslem you can say that abortion is ok? Interesting.

Indiana huh, I just moved from the Southern part of that state.

Awesome post man.

You know, I really don't have anything intelligent to say that hasn't already been said, but I have to say a few things here. Nothing with any basis really, more of a rant I guess.

#1. I Am a Canadian, and it doesn't really matter what I think, but I don't like Bush and never have. But, he has been elected again, and thats it. Period. One thing I've noticed in governments at that level is that once there in power they don't 'step down'. Bush is there for another 4 years, like it or not. Now, he's going to continue his "Crusade", in Operation Iraqi Liberation (O.I.L.) and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

Bush has taken an already negative global opinion of Americans and made it worse on such a scale I can't even grasp. Sure western and some European nations get a long with you and like you all right, but unfortunately, thats a very small percentage of the worlds population. VERY small. That leaves BILLIONS that hate you. Hate for most of them is a very loose word, it works, but doesn't come close to what they really feel, something that can't be described. That picture of the wounded baby you posted? Thats what these people see every day in their news papers, on television, and described on the radio. And unfortunately, described to them by family members and friends of those babies.

I'm not saying that America only kills kids, or women. Nor am I saying that only Americans kill innocent people. It happens in war. Look at the conflicts in other parts of the world in which NATO members or say various G-12 countries have troops on the ground. Civilian casualties are a given, but now with our friends at Al-Jazeera and CNN, we can all enjoy grpahic representations of these terrible acts in living color, live, 24 hours a day.

These deaths are nothing new. Its been happening for millenia.Every since we started throwing rocks, sharpening sticks, and making fire. Ignorance was bliss I guess.

Now, not to say I condone the actions in Iraq, or the coming actions in various other Mid-east countries that is bound to occur now. Nor do I pretend to know why Bush or his cronies and lackeys worldwide are hellbent on kicking the asses of these people, but oil seems as good a reason as any.

Its pretty hard to operate a 2 billion dollar bomber, or a new 318 million dollar fighter jet, with out oil and gas. The American super-power would wane without it. But it can't just be oil. I mean its a nice thing to have, its easy. Everything uses it.

But there are so many other alternatives to it that are shelved for now, or in the works, or haven't been adapted yet to alternative uses. Such as nuclear power (fission and fusion), gravity drive devices, solar power cells that don't require batteries to store power (you should see the Organic Light Emitting Diodes that Kodak and Sanyo are developing, amazing potential), syntetic oils from chemical engineering and GMO's, ethanol from plants and GMO's, all replenishable resources. For everything you would lose from oil and gas vanishing from the earth, there is an alternative. And if there isn't an alternative yet, we will find one later.

I bet if you took the 500+ billion spent on the 'War on Terror" thus far, and put it into education, or various research projects, most of these problems would have been solved already, and set us up to tackle the next set that creeps up.

So I guess it comes down to greed in the Oil theroy on the war. Oil now is money. I live in Alberta, Canada. We are the only debt free province in Canada. I work for an oil company, my father works for an oil company, my brother, my brther in law, my father in law, my Grandpa, my wifes
Grandpa, countless friends of mine, and damn near every other person I meet has something to do with oil and gas production. I know more petroleum techs, engineers, geologists, geophysicists, power engineers, drilling rig crewmen, oil serivce operators, and carpet dwelling desk jockeys in Calgary oil company head offices than any person should ever know. Our economy is solely based on oil right now. Not Iraqi oil, oil right under my feet as I type this.

But its running out. Now these monsterous oil compaines are panicked. They know its going to dissappear soon, and they are going to lose the easy money. So they are doing what they can now to get access to any oil and gas reserves they can. Be it the stuff I'm sitting on here, or the stuff that Iraqi baby lived close to. Sure they don't give the attack orders, but I'm guessing that they are 'buying' those orders. Sending in your boys to pave the way for their rigs and sweep the oceans and coastlines to ensure safe passage for their tankers.

I like my job, I like the money I make, I like being in the field on these rigs, I like "seeing" whats down each well I go to, I like to drive my car, I like to use plastics, I like the convenience or turning on the furnace when it gets cold, and so do many other people. When we run out of this easy money industry, what will we do? Will I lose everything I like? HELL NO. My position is adaptable. I'm a registerd nuclear energy worker, I love learning new things, and I can move on. All that material stuff will be sustained another way. Give the farmers the money to grow the grain and canola to make the ethanol and synthetic oils, they've been hard up for YEARS. Invest in the alternative energy sectors, the genetic research, the Schools that train these poeple, and buy the solar cars.

Crap, sorry to go off topic, can't keep a straight train of thought.
Anyways, you know whats going on, you know whos running things, and you also know that no great empire or dynasty lasts forever. And soory fr al thee typos

Isn't it? I don't think you can compare Iraq to those others, and also...

Somalia was quite a success, wasn't it?

Expect even worse this time.

No it is not in my mind but that is my opinion, but I do not support the murder of the doctors who do it.

What I am trying to say is that we have Christian fundementalists that resort to violence, it doesnt make it any more right that what the islamic fundementalists do.

Somalia is one thing and the CiC dropped the ball there.

As for your comment about Iraq, we shall see......we had 1000 casulties in vietnam in one month , yet we have been in Iraq for almost 2 years.

One thing to keep in mind, we have treated this with kid gloves so far as to not inflame the populace, at some point the US Government could grow impatient and there is not a DAMN thing these f%cksticks could about it.

How many moslem holy warriors are building schools, treating children for medical issues, building country infrastructures? Please before you just go off on how evil we have been, take a look at what we have done also.

Sure, because a peaceful country towards America would be a submissive one, and instead of attacking foriegn oil workers, they would become the consumers purchasing our products, which is far more favorable for the corporations.

While I agree, they want peace in the country, they want friendly peace for their own profit's sake, not for the Iraqi's.

You disagree?

Originally posted by cstyle226
Sure, because a peaceful country towards America would be a submissive one, and instead of attacking foriegn oil workers, they would become the consumers purchasing our products, which is far more favorable for the corporations.

While I agree, they want peace in the country, they want friendly peace for their own profit's sake, not for the Iraqi's.

You disagree?

Actually I do,

I see it as a freedom for the only arab people that had any shot at understanding it. We do not want to smuggle them with Burger Kings and listen to their arteries harden. We want them to be successful and therfore a model for the other middle eastern nations.

On example that is non-arab, is Turkey. They are very secular in the government, yet are mainly moslem.

The Middle East is a tinderbox, and if nothing was done soon, it would be the start of WWIII. Maybe this can aviod or delay that next big one.

Turkey (I am Turkish) is secular because Ataturk had the wisdom to see that government and religion should be kept separate.

Currently, we have an Islamic government, but our military, which continues in the spirit of Ataturk, keeps the current Islamic leadership in check, and if they ever try to blur the line between religion of government, they will be forcibly removed.

1923, October 29 was when Turkey declared their independence and before that, it was the Ottoman empire, which was wholly Islamic.

The point is, we are a very recent example of Secularism in the Middle East, but we fought for it ourselves, and achieved it on our own, not only with no help, but with opposition.

You cannot force "freedom" on people, because it will not last.

Originally posted by cstyle226
Turkey (I am Turkish) is secular because Ataturk had the wisdom to see that government and religion should be kept separate.

Currently, we have an Islamic government, but our military, which continues in the spirit of Ataturk, keeps the current Islamic leadership in check, and if they ever try to blur the line between religion of government, they will be forcibly removed.

1923, October 29 was when Turkey declared their independence and before that, it was the Ottoman empire, which was wholly Islamic.

The point is, we are a very recent example of Secularism in the Middle East, but we fought for it ourselves, and achieved it on our own, not only with no help, but with opposition.

You cannot force "freedom" on people, because it will not last.

Very good then, I guessed right then......and you are right, but Turkey had the stability that the other nations have not had. NOt that the US has been helpful before I agree. Maybe that will change now as I sure hope it will. I would like to see the arab peoples free to do what they wish and not live under a gun so to speak. I can see no other reason for the Iraq war except to at least make an attempt to right some wrongs over the years.

Iraq is our best shot.

GoodNight!

[edit on 9-11-2004 by edsinger]

Fear not, the right thing will happen at the end of all this.

And justice will be served.

Originally posted by cstyle226
Somalia was quite a success, wasn't it?

Expect even worse this time.

Operation Provide Relief was a success.
Operation Restore Hope was a success.
The extension for Operation Restore Hope was not a success.

Why was it not a success? It had no clear end state.
When edsinger said "CiC dropped the ball", he is correct. But, the CiC that first dropped the ball was the Commander in Chief and not the Combat Information Center.

One important thing to consider when comparing Mogadishu with Fallujah is force ratios. The MOUT "magic number" is 4:1 (attacker:defender). In Mogadishu, the US Rangers were on the defending side of a ratio much worse than that. In Fallujah, 15,000 US troops vs ~3000 insurgents will result in a much different outcome.

And FYI, the failure in Mogadishu did not force the termination of operations. That was already in the planning stages after the focus of UNOSOM II became military instead of political and humanitarian after the June ambush and murder of 24 Pakastani troops.

I think it was a laugh all the way to the bank for the warlords.

Everybody including the US went in there talking about handovers, set timetables and exit strategies didnt they? and stuck to them.

Australia sent 1200 troops and secured Baidoa and created a safe security environement there for the NGOs and locals, through aggressive patrolling and no nonsense dialogues with the local gang leaders.

Then we handed right over on schedule to a UN releif force Three months later as advertised.......and it pretty much went to # again.

I think Iraq is business Ed and others but its also the best chance most Iraqis have given the alternative of handing it over to the leaders of the insurgents. Because most of them might go home if we leave and the interim or elected Government falls, but the hardliners will not.

All Frikkin war is a nightmare

OT. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I'm a little left and a little right (my wife calls it common sense.

But there are some people posting who are so right or left getting people to bite......I wonder if they are plants for the left and right