The Premise of Healthy Values

Having proven free will through quantum physics and string theory, every action that we take is start of a series of actions and reactions that we made through our own free will – the idea that we are restricted in our actions or that they are predetermined for us by things such as our parents, or race, etc. are actually illusions that are reinforced by cultural or economic punishment that is based on these delusions.

What we need to do is drop the illusory society and start to live in reality. Knowing that we have free will, and that none of us have much experience with making decisions that have realistic cause-and-effect outcomes instead of ones that are reinforced through social hierarchy, it would be helpful to have a guide on healthy or unhealthy values in order to ensure the happiness and well-being of not only the individual, but the individual's relationships with him / herself and the rest of society, as well as society as a whole.

[size=-7]The Premise of my Second Book: Healthy Values.

The problem humans have with true cause and effect relationships is the believe in time, i.e. it will take time before I see the repercussions of my actions. That, and the belief that we are separate from each other.

If you really knew the things you are thinking and doing actually affects everyone and everything, you would take a serious look at the way you think and the things you do.

reply to post by darkbake

Sure, we can exist without government. Aside from disease or injury to the brain, it is actually quite able to take care of us and can even go into survival mode, if need be. So no, humans do not need government.

However, the premise of being totally free is probably impossible, because we will always have some type of responsibility toward something. for example, toward the survival of our self or even our loved ones. I suppose the choosing to do the responsibilities that we do, is about as free as we could ever be.

reply to post by darkbake

Having proven free will through quantum physics and string theory,

Could you explain that a little, please? And a few examples of the healthy values you speak of?

Originally posted by darkbake
it would be helpful to have a guide on healthy or unhealthy values in order to ensure the happiness and well-being of not only the individual, but the individual's relationships with him / herself and the rest of society, as well as society as a whole.

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Who is going to write the guide? Why should we take their word on what is "healthy or unhealthy values"?
Shouldn't that be left up to the individual to decide what is healthy or unhealthy? Do you want to write the guide for us?

reply to post by olaru12


The Golden Rule would be the starting place.

reply to post by MindpurelyMind


Yeah I agree with that...

reply to post by olaru12


I don't know, that's a good question. It would a guide and not a requirement - realistically, though, cultures already do this sort of thing and everyone writes their own from their experiences.

The best I could do is publish a book on my life philosophy and get criticism on it.

reply to post by jiggerj


The Theory

Sorry it took me a while to reply to this, I had to think about it. Okay, what happened to me is this - I was having a spiritual crisis wondering if spirituality existed / I had a soul or not.

So I decided I would start with the assumption that I did not have a soul and that spirituality did not exist. The moment I made this assumption, it actually freed me from both Atheist and Christian doctrine because in reality, Atheists don't ever take that step.

By taking that step, it was like jumping into an ocean of black water. I began to see inconsistencies with my assumption, which is what led me to quantum physics in order to explain how we can make choices, and led me to work on my thesis paper and contact scientists world-wide... you can check out my thesis paper in my Open Philosophy forum if you like.

In college, see, we learned the atheist perspective that there were no choices, that there was no initial cause, that no one had personal responsibility because of this.

in any case, being thrown suddenly into a world where I realized that I did have choices over everything and that my choices not only affected me but those around me -

I had to struggle for years with that burden. How do you go through life knowing that your situation is completely your own doing, and that you are affecting others?

It all boils down to what do you want out of life (hopefully a positive experience) and how do you get it?

It boils down to being able to accurately assess a situation and accurately assess cause-and-effect scenarios in order to get the desired result with the least amount of negative consequences.

reply to post by darkbake


Examples

Okay. So basically, the examples are totally useful yet totally boring. For example, I'm at the store and I want some bread. Well - what kind of bread do I want? And what's the best price I can get? This means ignoring dumb things like packaging, etc. Unless I'm really attracted to flashy packaging.

Or let's say I want to hook up with someone. Do I care what they look like? I may, if I get turned on by that. Should I tell them I just want to hook up? Yes, otherwise that's unfair to her and would get back to me through karma.

Let's say I want to get married? Should I care what the person looks like? Probably not as much, as this is marriage, and things like common interests, personality traits, compatibility, etc. as SO MUCH more important -- come on here, you're going to be living with the person and she's going to be your main source of interaction.

Here's another example, let's say smoking. You want to smoke, how come? I like smoking a few cigarettes a day, and I like socializing. Is it going to affect my life-span? I dunno, maybe? It's good to be informed about it, but it's a decision I get to make.

I began to see inconsistencies with my assumption, which is what led me to quantum physics

reply to post by darkbake


Sorry, DB, I'm just not getting it. How is quantum physics evidence of free will? Where is this Open Philosophy Forum? I'd love to check it out.

While waiting for your reply I'd like to address this, if I may:

It boils down to being able to accurately assess a situation and accurately assess cause-and-effect scenarios in order to get the desired result with the least amount of negative consequences.

Addressing free will in connection with your statement, I would argue that seeing as we exist in state of cause and effect, this proves the absence of free will. If there is always a cause, then there can be no free will. From the moment we are born until the time we die we are in a constant state of RE-action and not action. The doctor spanks the baby or sticks an aspirator up its nose - the baby reacts by crying. The baby is placed in the comfort of the mother's arm and the baby reacts by growing a bond to the mother.

Years later, a man wakes up grumpy and reacts to his kids being too noisy. He reacts to the raise he was just handed at work. He reacts to a violent drunk in a bar (fight or flight). He reacts to the game he's watching.

Free will can only exist if we can create an action without a previous action compelling us one way or the other. We simply can't do that. There is always a reason for what we do and the choices we make.

reply to post by darkbake

For example, I'm at the store and I want some bread. Well - what kind of bread do I want? And what's the best price I can get? This means ignoring dumb things like packaging, etc. Unless I'm really attracted to flashy packaging.

Every part of this statement is completely removed from free will. Just the mere fact that you want bread instead of crackers or ready-made subs means that your mind has been conditioned to pick bread instead of anything else. You choose bread because your mother bought bread, or you choose bread because the society you were raised in has made bread a regular dietary staple.

What kind of bread do you want? Again, you will choose the one you were either made to be familiar with, or you will choose the one that is the most popular, or you will choose the new brand because you were raised to try out new things. What you WON'T do, however, is choose the bread that is not familiar, or not popular, or not new. I know, because there are lots of different odd brands of bread at my grocery store, and my mind doesn't even register them because they are not on my preconditioned list of choices.

Since I wrote this (because of your action of starting this thread) I just might react by trying some of those odd brands. But, it won't be free will because you put the thought in my head.

reply to post by jiggerj


I actually buy bread because it tastes good in my chicken noodle soup that I happened to discover when trying out new canned foods.

But yeah the bread thing, I did learn from my parents to make stuff like Tuna sandwiches or Turkey sandwiches, or whatnot from bread.But look - I ended up dipping it in soup! Where does that come in?

That's funny, we're different, I'm not even sure what kind of bread my parents used, or what kind of bread is popular, I go off of what kind of bread tastes good to me or based on price-efficiency, and I try out new stuff all the time.

I think last time I was in the store, I discovered that they were hiding cheaper hot dog and hamburger buns in the bread isle while the ones next to the hamburgers and hot dogs were more expensive by a whole dollar!

Maybe there are different types of people? Your response was interesting, thanks. I do notice as I get older I get more set in my ways, but it was influenced by both environment and my personal preferences


I can equate it to throwing a baseball, which is a pretty good example, you use free will to try different ways of throwing the baseball, and then your mind remembers which ones are more effective and zooms in on the more effective methods and eventually you don't need to use your will you can use your stored baseball throwing algorithm.

If something new comes along, like baseball changes its rules to include balls from space that try to bite at your hand while you throw them, it might be time to rethink things again.

Or maybe you get bored and decide to change it up and go bowling? Then you learn a whole new way of handling a ball!

Or, in your case, once you are done learning how to throw the baseball you comfortably settle in as a pitcher, no harm no foul (hopefully). There is comfort in following routines, etc.

But it is also a choice - and neglecting the free will aspect, even if it isn't used as much in some cases, neglects a whole aspect of thinking, which can't be healthy for science, which, and maybe this is just my opinion, is interested in finding out how things work.


If, instead, science is interested in promoting a dogma that is relevant to its own desires and those of the rich benefiting off of current scientific dogma, then it is an entirely different beast than I had assumed - more like religion.



Which, in my opinion, means that science is being shackled and used for things that it doesn't want to be used for - I highly doubt science the entity itself would want to promote incorrect ideas.

reply to post by jiggerj


Well, we can operate on auto-pilot if we want to, but in some cases, at least, we are the origin of the cause, the droplet of water that falls into a pond and sends out ripples. Feel free to continue discussion, it is interesting. Thanks.

I can say in my case I have a ridiculously hard time forming routines or anything of the sort, my friend once told me that I operate on "fluid intelligence" almost exclusively. I would actually benefit from reducing my free will percentile.

reply to post by darkbake

I can equate it to throwing a baseball

Though I like the baseball analogy you completely missed where free will would actually comes into play. Your childhood conditioning and the social acceptance of this particular sport made you choose the baseball. Why not a football, ping pong ball, or golf ball? See, you THINK it was free will that made you decide on a baseball and how to throw it, but it wasn't.

There is free will only in choosing options that are not influenced by past experiences or guided by social pressure. The only free will option I can think of is: Live, or die. To prove it, how about this: You wake up fully grown, but without any past (no previous conditioning). No people besides yourself, and you have a mind that is completely blank. You are brand new, and so is the world.

The first thing you become aware of is your stomach telling you that you must eat. If you choose to not eat, you will die - that is free will. If you choose to eat and live - that is free will. However, from here on out what you decide to eat (vegetable or animal) is merely you making a selection that you must make in order to survive - that is not free will. It is making a choice out of necessity and availability.

Being only human you begin to feel very lonely, so we'll add a tribe to this scenario. This loneliness compels you to join the tribe. This is not free will. Oh sure, you can choose to remain all alone, but this choice would be made out of fear of the new people. That also is not free will.

Everything you decide to do within the tribe is driven by your need to be accepted by the people. That is not free will.

reply to post by darkbake

Well, we can operate on auto-pilot if we want to, but in some cases, at least, we are the origin of the cause, the droplet of water that falls into a pond and sends out ripples. Feel free to continue discussion, it is interesting. Thanks.

Yeah, I like it too.

Please give an example of someone being THE ORIGIN of a cause? Bet you can't get to the origin.

A man is in the hospital for being poisoned. You might say the origin here would be his wife, and you'd be wrong. Yes, she did do it, but what made her do it? What was the cause? Well, as a child her parents were always fighting, and too many times she heard her mother say, "One day I'm going to put rat poison in his coffee." So, the mother was the cause, right? Nope.

The mother had been repeatedly abused by her father and the men in her life, so she grew up hating men, and passed this hate onto her daughter. This makes the father the cause of the wife poisoning her husband, or is he the true origin of this nightmare? Not even close.

We could take this story back thousands of years and never find the very first finger that knocked over the domino that started all of the dominoes falling.

Originally posted by jiggerj


The first thing you become aware of is your stomach telling you that you must eat. If you choose to not eat, you will die - that is free will. If you choose to eat and live - that is free will.

The stomach will make eating happen - the only reason eating would not happen is if there is no food available. I don't think eating is free will. One is compelled to eat.
If there was a 'big bang' and cause and effect were all there is then it is the same as when the white ball breaks on a snooker table - as soon as the cue hits the white ball the end is predetermined - nothing will change the outcome.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by jiggerj


The first thing you become aware of is your stomach telling you that you must eat. If you choose to not eat, you will die - that is free will. If you choose to eat and live - that is free will.

The stomach will make eating happen - the only reason eating would not happen is if there is no food available. I don't think eating is free will. One is compelled to eat.

I don't know how to respond to that, but:

If there was a 'big bang' and cause and effect were all there is then it is the same as when the white ball breaks on a snooker table - as soon as the cue hits the white ball the end is predetermined - nothing will change the outcome.

That is a perfect analogy.

Originally posted by darkbake
Having proven free will through quantum physics and string theory, every action that we take is start of a series of actions and reactions that we made through our own free will – the idea that we are restricted in our actions or that they are predetermined for us by things such as our parents, or race, etc. are actually illusions that are reinforced by cultural or economic punishment that is based on these delusions.

What we need to do is drop the illusory society and start to live in reality. Knowing that we have free will, and that none of us have much experience with making decisions that have realistic cause-and-effect outcomes instead of ones that are reinforced through social hierarchy, it would be helpful to have a guide on healthy or unhealthy values in order to ensure the happiness and well-being of not only the individual, but the individual's relationships with him / herself and the rest of society, as well as society as a whole.

[size=-7]The Premise of my Second Book: Healthy Values.

edit on 28-6-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

If you say 'I have free will', then you must also know who the 'I' is, otherwise the statement has no meaning. So what's the definition of the 'I' that has this free will?

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Well, we can operate on auto-pilot if we want to, but in some cases, at least, we are the origin of the cause, the droplet of water that falls into a pond and sends out ripples. Feel free to continue discussion, it is interesting. Thanks.

I can say in my case I have a ridiculously hard time forming routines or anything of the sort, my friend once told me that I operate on "fluid intelligence" almost exclusively. I would actually benefit from reducing my free will percentile.

edit on 29-6-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

Everything a person does, is in reaction to his/her psychological and physical environment. This includes the Mind (which is not us but external to us) and it's thoughts. This is the true definition of the word Karma. A reaction. If all of a person's actions are a reaction to thoughts, environment, external stimuli and physical needs, where is this so-called free will being exercised? Where is free will, when everything he does is in reaction and obedience to mental, physical and external stimuli?

Sure, we have choices to pick from, picking one is perceived as free will, yet a bird also has choices. Like which twig to pick for her nest, ...but is it really free will or instinctual selective process? Like a bee that picks a certain flower to pollinate or a dog that picks a spot on the floor to lie down.

If free will, is defined as merely the ability to choose from a number of presented possibilities, then every animal on Earth must have it as well. But they don't appear to. So if you have free will, what freedom outside the demands of your mind and body and other external circumstances, are you exercising? In other words, name one action you perform, that is NOT a reaction to mind, body and environment. Name one choice you make that is outside of the choices presented to you from your mind or your environment.