It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by markosity1973
I'm so sorry you went through that. I think being a survivor of childhood sexual molestation and rape heightens my empathy... I used to be a Christian and I blamed myself for what happened to me. I felt SO guilty! Even after I left religion, I still had a very hard time dealing with feeling responsible.
The pain and shame are so deeply ingrained, I don't think I'll ever be completely "recovered". And that's the feeling I got from many of the survivors I heard speak last night. Like it's a permanent wound. I will go on and live my life and be happy, but something so dark and painful always has a presence in what is "my life".
One of the nation’s most powerful conservative Christian groups said it was not discouraged by Exodus International head Alan Chamber’s announcement that his ministry was closing because there are others to take its place.
...
Many saw the ministry’s closing and Chambers' announcement as a win for gay-rights advocates. Focus on the Family President Jim Daly disagreed.
“Exodus’ closing is being hailed by some as a victory and indication that Christians are abandoning long-held convictions that living with God’s design for sexuality is possible…that change is possible,” Daly in a statement to The Times.
“It started when I was a little boy; when I first realized that being gay was something you were supposed to be ashamed of,” Bussee told host Lisa Ling. “And going to the library when I was 12 and trying to find books on how to fix it. Then starting an organization that tried to fix it.”
Some religious liberals believe that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. Some important verses which describe their relationship are:
1 Samuel 18:1
"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)
Most translations use the term "soul" rather than "spirit" to describe the bond. They speak of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit" etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally.
1 Samuel 18:2
"From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV)
David left his parent's home and moved to Saul's where he would be with Jonathan. This is a strong indication that the relationship was extremely close. It echoes the passage marriage passage in Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
1 Samuel 18:3-4
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)
Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was sexual in nature.
I think that you will be able to agree that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger and my own personal opinion being from a Christian background is that if I do stand before God on judgement day, then I can say with an honest heart that I did the best I could with the hand I was dealt. I am pretty sure you could say the same too
Originally posted by Darth_Prime
reply to post by markosity1973
I am one to always defend Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, expression and thought, because I thrive for those freedoms likewise, but abuse, is crossing the lines that no organization should ever cross
Originally posted by charles1952
This is all so intensely frustrating. I love you both and want only the very best for you and those you're close to. I want to ease your pain and strengthen you for the life you have.
The difficulty is that I don't see same-sex marriage as the way to get there. If I get into details or analogies, I'm afraid it might only cause hurt. I sometimes feel as if I have to stand silent, because I don't know how to criticize an idea without seeming to criticize the person who holds the idea.
If a person says "I really want X," what approach is available for the person who believes that "X" is a mistake in the end? I'm not anybodys' parent or guardian, in a position to tell them what to do. Nor is anyone mine, telling me how to think and what to accept.
I greatly appreciate the effort you've made, but right now I'm walking in a dense fog, with no idea how to proceed. If I speak, I cause ill will and crystallize people's opinion.
If I don't speak, there is no change.
I'm sure the identical words were used to homosexuals 50 years ago.
I'm not sure you know just how strong this force is. There is nothing you can do to affect change in the direction that you support.
You're right, priveleges (not rights, no matter what you think) are the province of the government. Any citizen is allowed to try to persuade the government to choose his preferred path, though. I guess that is my place.
You say it's not your place to tell others how to live and what to do, and it's not your place to deny the rights of other people, no matter HOW good you think your reasons are.
Again this mistaken idea that we're dealing with a right. I know demanding a "right" sounds more impressive than demanding a privelege, but it's not factually correct. And you know that the law treats differently situated people differently.
If YOU have a right, then everyone should have the same right, regardless if you are comfortable with it or accept it or not.
Originally posted by charles1952
You're fine and strong, and largely problem free.
Any citizen is allowed to try to persuade the government to choose his preferred path, though. I guess that is my place.
Again this mistaken idea that we're dealing with a right.
civ·il rights
basic rights: rights that all citizens of a society are supposed to have, e.g. the right to vote or to receive fair treatment from the law.
Synonyms: human rights, rights, constitutional rights, civil liberties, privileges, freedoms
civil rights
plural noun ( often initial capital letters )
1. rights to personal liberty established by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. constitution and certain Congressional acts, especially as applied to an individual or a minority group.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; ... nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
And you know that the law treats differently situated people differently.
I'm perfectly willing to accept an emotional argument for homosexual marriage, emotions are valid, but I still haven't seen a logical one.
Yes, I can identify completely. I was one of the almost suicides.
What if you actually believed that God hated you so much that you started to actually believe that you are a blight to this earth and that you poison everything and everyone you come near?
Didn't we just go through this on the subject of the baker? His life has been affected. Besides, why do you choose that standard? I am not directly affected by illegal drug use, or animal abuse, or threats against the President, or smuggling, or DVD piracy, or any of hundreds of illegal things. "Directly affected" is not a reasonable standard to apply.
I don't think you have the moral right (not legal right) to dictate how others should live, unless it directly affects you. There is no indication that gay people marrying affects you. They are already doing it and having families. How is this affecting your life?
Since you use car buying later in your post, is driving a right or a privilege? Remember that you must have insurance to drive. It can only be seen as a privilege, subject to whatever restrictions government chooses to put on it. A right which can be eliminated by a vote of a state legislature is not a right.
Besides, the 14th amendment protects privileges as well as rights.
A contract can only be entered into when both parties are willing. The problem homosexuals are trying to overcome is that, in many places, the government is not willing.
Marriage is a legal contract with the state,
First, the question you ask is "Why not?" An immediate answer is "Why?" A second answer is that I don't need a reason, the legislators need a reason. And as far as we know they could be voting for one side or the other for dozens of reasons.
What reason would you give for treating people differently because of whom they love?
Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by markosity1973
Exodus started with good intentions. They found they were doing more harm than good, and they had left the proper understanding of the dignity of the person behind. They closed, and apologized. I'm glad that happened.
God doesn't hate you, despite what Westboro Baptist proclaims. The religion I'm most knowledgeable about, Catholicism, doesn't hate you. I don't hate you. Anyone that hates you is on the wrong path. It is hard to ignore their yells and hatred, but it is not justified hatred.
Believing that God hates you is an error, and a very painful and damaging one.
Everyone has a tendency towards one or more sinful behaviors. Thankfully, I'm not interested in greed, gambling, drinks, or drugs, but I do have tendencies regarded as sinful. God and the Church want to help all of us deal with our individual tendencies, to make us better, not crush us. I will probably never get completely over my tendencies, but I am learning to deal with them. I hope to come to God as spotless as I can be, and I'll trust in His mercy for the rest.
What if you actually believed that God hated you so much that you started to actually believe that you are a blight to this earth and that you poison everything and everyone you come near?
Yes, I can identify completely. I was one of the almost suicides.
If you create a world which is truly equal, that won't solve the problem you have expressed.
Wait a minute, just had a thought, maybe it would solve your problem IF your problem is how people feel about you. I'm sorry to ask this question but is the problem how the world sees you, or how God sees you. If your worried about how God sees you, then what the rest of the world thinks, good or bad, makes no difference. If the problem is how the world feels about you, then all you have to do is change everybody's attitude.