It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Christian Ministry Apologizes To LGBT Community And Halts Operations

page: 4
11
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 07:29 AM
link   
I had recorded the show mentioned in the OP and I watched it last night. Did anyone else see it?

I was surprised at how deeply and seriously some of the "Ex-gay survivors" had been hurt and damaged by their time in the Exodus Ministries... It was eye-opening for me. I though I was pretty knowledgeable about what I was arguing against, but until I saw the show and heard some of their stories and saw the pain and shame in their faces... I didn't know that I was barely touching the surface.

I'm just so grateful and thankful that this "ministry" was shut down! It is actually abuse of a vulnerable group of human beings.




posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 07:38 AM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

I don't want this to sound like a direct attack on Christianity, but Exodus ministries is directly responsible for a large number of gay suicides.

Telling a gay person who just happens to fully believe in Christianity that they are an abomination and that God despises the natural sexual attraction they feel is not a nice position to be in. It causes a self destructive time bomb that I thank God most people don't have to suffer.

I am almost embarassed to admit this, but because of Exodus ministries, I used to beat myself black and blue with a stick for feeling attracted to men. The feeling of attraction was powerful but the disgust at myself for being an abomination was even more powerful. It's amazing how much a belief in a God who is supposed to love you can mess with your head when people try and play on it.





edit on 22-6-2013 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 08:37 AM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 


I'm so sorry you went through that. I think being a survivor of childhood sexual molestation and rape heightens my empathy... I used to be a Christian and I blamed myself for what happened to me. I felt SO guilty! Even after I left religion, I still had a very hard time dealing with feeling responsible.

The pain and shame are so deeply ingrained, I don't think I'll ever be completely "recovered". And that's the feeling I got from many of the survivors I heard speak last night. Like it's a permanent wound. I will go on and live my life and be happy, but something so dark and painful always has a presence in what is "my life".



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 08:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by markosity1973
 


I'm so sorry you went through that. I think being a survivor of childhood sexual molestation and rape heightens my empathy... I used to be a Christian and I blamed myself for what happened to me. I felt SO guilty! Even after I left religion, I still had a very hard time dealing with feeling responsible.

The pain and shame are so deeply ingrained, I don't think I'll ever be completely "recovered". And that's the feeling I got from many of the survivors I heard speak last night. Like it's a permanent wound. I will go on and live my life and be happy, but something so dark and painful always has a presence in what is "my life".


And in that respect we share an unspoken bond. The hardest thing in life is getting past that shame and hurt,

I have seen you toil away patiently and kindly working hard to make people see and understand the truth in so many threads now. I think it's fair to say that you are somebody who should be proud of yourself.

I think that you will be able to agree that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger and my own personal opinion being from a Christian background is that if I do stand before God on judgement day, then I can say with an honest heart that I did the best I could with the hand I was dealt. I am pretty sure you could say the same too



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 12:26 PM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973 and Benevolent Heretic
 

Gentlemen,

I just came back to the thread and read the last few posts. I don't know what to say. I wish I could hold you both, cry with you, and offer my phone number when the tears had stopped. Somehow let you know that I am available.

I know someone who was abused as a young teenager, and later as an adult by the spouse. I'm told the nightmares are still there after a dozen years of separation.

You have been offended and hurt by some of my words. I'm deeply sorry to have been a part of your pain. I want to relieve it, or share it, not add to it.

Sometimes I forget that when I criticize an idea, that the idea is held by a person who naturally sees the criticism as an attack on that person. I'll appreciate your help in reminding me if I cross over again.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 02:04 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 


Speaking for myself only, I rarely get hurt or offended by the stuff said here.
It's nothing compared to some of the stuff that's actually happened in my life. So words? They don't bother me much. And I don't think you wouldn't purposely hurt me, anyway. So, don't be concerned on my part. Thank you for your kind words and cyber hug.


On the subject of the thread: Christian Leader Says Others Will Fill the Void Left by Exodus International



One of the nation’s most powerful conservative Christian groups said it was not discouraged by Exodus International head Alan Chamber’s announcement that his ministry was closing because there are others to take its place.
...
Many saw the ministry’s closing and Chambers' announcement as a win for gay-rights advocates. Focus on the Family President Jim Daly disagreed.

“Exodus’ closing is being hailed by some as a victory and indication that Christians are abandoning long-held convictions that living with God’s design for sexuality is possible…that change is possible,” Daly in a statement to The Times.


This is so sad. Until parents, friends and colleagues of gay people find some sort of acceptance for homosexuality, there will be those who think they are "less-than" and that something is horribly wrong with them. Once I watched the show, I understood why gay conversion or reparative therapy is outlawed in some places. It's horrible abuse.

The original founders of Exodus International eventually realized how wrong they were and they spent the rest of their time together as a couple. One died of AIDS. But Michael Bussee now works to help people who have been through the program that he founded...


“It started when I was a little boy; when I first realized that being gay was something you were supposed to be ashamed of,” Bussee told host Lisa Ling. “And going to the library when I was 12 and trying to find books on how to fix it. Then starting an organization that tried to fix it.”



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 07:57 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952 and Benevolent Heretic
 

Charles, you and people like you are the reason I continue to raise awareness of our (as in the gay community in general's) situation. You have shown that despite your ingrained feelings you are prepared to listen. It took me 23 years to win over my own mother, but in the end she came round from being the most ignorant and anti gay Christian I have ever known to actually telling me she misses both myself and my partner in our last phone call.

Like BH, I will speak only for myself; The words people use against me are like confetti - they rain down but they don't really do anything. I just view them as an opportunity to show someone the error in their belief / logic / thinking patterns.

I have already said this several times, but I have nothing against Christianity itself. It's only when people start using the bible as a weapon to marginalize me that I will go on the offensive. After all, as someone brought up in a Christian household, it's my bible too.

I posted this in another thread, but I think it is relevant to this one, as it is biblical and it is actually what made me stop with all the self hate that Exodus ministries were causing me. It's something that Christianity needs to stand up and accept and acknowledge, because after reading what I am about to post, I don't think any gay person will disagree if they take the time to read it that there is a beautiful and profound gay love story right there hidden in the old testament.


Some religious liberals believe that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. Some important verses which describe their relationship are:
1 Samuel 18:1
"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)

Most translations use the term "soul" rather than "spirit" to describe the bond. They speak of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit" etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally.


1 Samuel 18:2
"From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV)

David left his parent's home and moved to Saul's where he would be with Jonathan. This is a strong indication that the relationship was extremely close. It echoes the passage marriage passage in Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."


1 Samuel 18:3-4
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)

Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was sexual in nature.


I have truncated this down immensely to keep within T&C's but visit the link here as it provides a more balanced and complete argument.



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 10:20 PM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 

Dear markosity1973,

This is all so intensely frustrating. I love you both and want only the very best for you and those you're close to. I want to ease your pain and strengthen you for the life you have.

The difficulty is that I don't see same-sex marriage as the way to get there. If I get into details or analogies, I'm afraid it might only cause hurt. I sometimes feel as if I have to stand silent, because I don't know how to criticize an idea without seeming to criticize the person who holds the idea.

If a person says "I really want X," what approach is available for the person who believes that "X" is a mistake in the end? I'm not anybodys' parent or guardian, in a position to tell them what to do. Nor is anyone mine, telling me how to think and what to accept.

I greatly appreciate the effort you've made, but right now I'm walking in a dense fog, with no idea how to proceed. If I speak, I cause ill will and crystallize people's opinion. If I don't speak, there is no change. What, honestly, can be done?

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 22 2013 @ 11:34 PM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 




I think that you will be able to agree that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger and my own personal opinion being from a Christian background is that if I do stand before God on judgement day, then I can say with an honest heart that I did the best I could with the hand I was dealt. I am pretty sure you could say the same too

That is probibly the bravest, most honest statement I've heard in a long time. The fact is, you don't have to be alone facing God on judgement day.

Jesus loves all of us: gay, strait, liars, theves, adulterers, everyone. He knows we are limited by our flesh. We may be strong in the spirit, but weak in the flesh...as the verse goes. Our job is to strive to fight our fallen natures. Yes, I say natures, but cause it doesn't matter what sin we do, we all sin in one way or the other. Our focus is to strive to be Christ-like, and not freely embrace our sin natures. To accept Jesus as our savior, our Lord. Don't let what the world says deny you of that free gift. There is no way we can be sin free, but, if we have faith that Jesus died to cleanse us from our sin, we will have eternal life. It's just that simple. He did the work. Our job is to walk in faith. You don't have to punish yourselves, its the fallen cherub who is telling us that. The fallen cherub works in such subtile ways: he twists words, minds, confuses, seeks to destroy, condems.

Alan Chambers was not fulfilling the will of God, but the will of the fallen cherub. Just look at what the fruits of his organisation were...broken lives, suicide, pain, self hate. That is not from God. It is good that he showed pentance and he is sorry for what he did.

God will judge the just and unjust; however, the good news is we will be saved by the blood of Jesus.



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 12:08 AM
link   
There was a time when I would come into this forum and get irritated with what was being said about God and his Word. I couldn't understand why people had such a distaine for God. I realised that it's not my job to defend God. That He is much bigger than me and His word can stand on it's own. Our job as Christians is to witness to the world what God has done for us, and to share His gospel for redemption.

To the Christians:
Why dose my brothers and sisters defend "ministries" such as Exodus Internationsal when we see what the results of it is? We are to spread the Word with love and patience. Leave the details to the Lord. Why do we pick verses out of the bible as weapons as the unbelievers do? Is Christ's sacrifice insufficant for us? Of course not. We ourselves fall into the same traps laid out by the fallen cherub. Traps that are designed to make us stumble. We should spend more time in the Word to understand what it means to be Christ-like and less time battling the hard hearted.

To non-believers
As we all can see, there is a great falling away in the church. It hasn't happen overnight. God has said before he judges the world, he will judge his church first. I see that this is indeed happening. We all are imperfect. We are all seeking love, and longing to fill the emptyness which is inside of us. The Lord can heal this emptyness, make you into new creations outside of this world's understanding. When God judges a nation, he always leaves a remnant who is faithful and true to him. There is always a path to redemption. Don't let organizations such as this one harden your heart. Know that the only sin which is not forgiven is to turn from Jesus, as there is now way to receive forgivness. Open your hearts and be saved by the blood of the one who loves you the most, Jesus.



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 02:44 AM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 


as someone who went through atrocities suffered for 18 years by the people that raised me, and then left in the streets for another year and a half to suffer further atrocities , i too can empathize with you and Benevolent Heretic, i am almost 24 now, and whilst i can forgive the people that did this, i can never forget,

these people that have suffered at the hands of those they thought they had to follow will have been left with a mark on their consciousness, and it's absurd to say the least

i am one to always defend Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, expression and thought, because i thrive for those freedoms likewise, but abuse, is crossing the lines that no organization should ever cross



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 03:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by Darth_Prime
reply to post by markosity1973
 

I am one to always defend Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, expression and thought, because I thrive for those freedoms likewise, but abuse, is crossing the lines that no organization should ever cross


Well said young man


Religion has it's place in this world, but it should never be used for hate or to justify marginalizing others. Exodus ministries was more than misguided in it's intentions, it was purposely destructive. Hearing that it is closing is a great relief for me not because of want of revenge on my own part but because I never want a single soul to have to suffer again the torment and manipulation supposedly in the name of God and salvation again.

Christianity in general on the other hand is not such a bad thing if you are so inclined to believe in it's virtues. The US of A in particular seems to be over represented in overly zealous self appointed vigilantes who interpret the bible incorrectly in a perverted attempt to justify hate agendas which sadly puts a lot of people off the faith altogether.



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 07:22 AM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 



Originally posted by charles1952
This is all so intensely frustrating. I love you both and want only the very best for you and those you're close to. I want to ease your pain and strengthen you for the life you have.


Charles, I appreciate your words, I really do. But we're FINE.
We're both very strong people. I don't need you to ease my pain or strengthen me. The experiences I've had have already done that. I'm VERY happy in my life. And I don't pretend to know what gay people face. Neither do you. But from markosity's words, I can tell he's a fine and strong and beautiful man. There's no need for you to be frustrated, just live your life.




The difficulty is that I don't see same-sex marriage as the way to get there. If I get into details or analogies, I'm afraid it might only cause hurt. I sometimes feel as if I have to stand silent, because I don't know how to criticize an idea without seeming to criticize the person who holds the idea.


Please don't take offense, but it seems you're too concerned about it how your opinion affects others. I've had the discussion with you when you weren't silent and I came out unscathed. You simply don't have the power to hurt me. Especially not with your words or opinion.



If a person says "I really want X," what approach is available for the person who believes that "X" is a mistake in the end? I'm not anybodys' parent or guardian, in a position to tell them what to do. Nor is anyone mine, telling me how to think and what to accept.


Exactly. Fact is, my opinion and your opinion can coexist peacefully. They're just thoughts. You have every right to your opinion, but like you said, you are not in the position to dictate someone else's life. And I'm certainly not telling you what to think or accept. I do continue to share my beliefs and opinions, however, as should you.




I greatly appreciate the effort you've made, but right now I'm walking in a dense fog, with no idea how to proceed. If I speak, I cause ill will and crystallize people's opinion.


That's the chance you take when being outspoken, believe me. There are MANY here who really don't like me because of my strong opinions and my insistence on voicing them over and over (and over). But I am strong enough to be OK with that. And in the end, that is their choice. I don't have the power or desire to control the way they feel about me. I am who I am and either people like me or they don't. I'm not wasting any time trying to make sure that my opinions don't cause ill will or crystallize people's negative opinions of me.



If I don't speak, there is no change.


Honey, if you do speak, there is no change. Regardless of your opinion, your words or the opinions and voices of the hoards of people who oppose equal marriage and equal rights for gay people, it IS happening. This country will have it no other way.

You're not gay and you're not an ally. I'm not sure you know just how strong this force is. There is nothing you can do to affect change in the direction that you support. You say it's not your place to tell others how to live and what to do, and it's not your place to deny the rights of other people, no matter HOW good you think your reasons are.

If YOU have a right, then everyone should have the same right, regardless if you are comfortable with it or accept it or not.

.
edit on 6/23/2013 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 08:07 AM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 

Hi Charles,

I was about to reply to your post but I see BH has responded brilliantly and is sharing the same thought patterns.

Do not worry for people like us, we are tough. A lot tougher than our sad stories make us sound, in fact those stories are what have made us so strong. I would not share any story on here that I have not made peace with already. I do it to make people stop and think who they are belittling as nobody knows our back stories. As other members are now starting to bravely show, gay people have a really hard life a lot of the time.

I can see that you are a man with a conscience and that is why I have great respect for you. A man that can see beyond his own emotion and see the effect it causes others has wisdom and it is not as common as it ought to be. You are heterosexual and you struggle with homosexuality. So what? don't beat yourself up for it. You're just part of the 90% of the straight population and there is nothing wrong with that. We don't need every single person on the planet to become a raving fan of our sexuality, we just need people to let us live our lives in peace and equality. It's okay to be weirded out by gay, but it's not okay to attack us, marginalize us and deny us equality because of it.

That fog you are feeling is what a lot of gay people have to deal with when coming to terms with their sexuality. It is confusing, sometimes frightening and you do easily get lost in it. Some people never make it out of it and others come through to see the light of a beautiful new day. It tends to happen when you are forced to question values that you have long held, so in a very small way you are having a taste of what it is like to live in our shoes.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 12:24 AM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

You're right, I needn't have worried about you two. You're fine and strong, and largely problem free.

I'm not sure you know just how strong this force is. There is nothing you can do to affect change in the direction that you support.
I'm sure the identical words were used to homosexuals 50 years ago.


You say it's not your place to tell others how to live and what to do, and it's not your place to deny the rights of other people, no matter HOW good you think your reasons are.
You're right, priveleges (not rights, no matter what you think) are the province of the government. Any citizen is allowed to try to persuade the government to choose his preferred path, though. I guess that is my place.


If YOU have a right, then everyone should have the same right, regardless if you are comfortable with it or accept it or not.
Again this mistaken idea that we're dealing with a right. I know demanding a "right" sounds more impressive than demanding a privelege, but it's not factually correct. And you know that the law treats differently situated people differently.

I'm perfectly willing to accept an emotional argument for homosexual marriage, emotions are valid, but I still haven't seen a logical one. Yes, I understand that some people want homosexual marriages to be recognized very, very, much, and they don't think it's fair that it isn't. But I haven't heard anything else.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 07:35 AM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 


Hi Charles,

I am going to ignore the marriage debate part of your post not to be disrepectful, but because this thread is about the end of Exodus ministries, which is a good thing for gay folk. Perhaps by reading and reflecting on this post you may get some of the answers you are looking for.

What you need to do is take a step back and ask yourself;

How would you feel if you were like me and had faith in God and you were made to believe that God hated you for feeling a natural sexual attraction?

What if you actually believed that God hated you so much that you started to actually believe that you are a blight to this earth and that you poison everything and everyone you come near?

What would happen that no matter how much you asked God to take this curse from you he does not?

What would it do to you when the people (the faithful in the church) played on the above and shared false sympathy with you in the hopes that you will keep on fighting against your natural self?

What happens when you realise that you can't change and they turn against you and they throw you out?

These things happened on a regular basis in Exodus ministries. So many people died needlessly because of what this organization did under the false pretense of saving one's soul.

As a straight person just be thankful every single day that you do not know the troubles most of us gay people have had to know.

We will keep fighting, not to antagonise you personally or anyone else, but because we believe in a world were everyone * is truly equal. Societies like the USA claim that their citizens live with equality, but the actual reality is that some people seem to be more equal than others. In the country I now call home we have the same issue. In fact it can be said that certain religious groups get way more equality than we do, even though they have come to prominence in this land after us and seek to destroy us in the gay community.

*By everyone I mean those who seek to abide by the law and contribute to a better society, not those who intend to bring it down with malevolent intent / actions. I hope this is specific enough for you as I know you love semantics



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 07:38 AM
link   
I apologize. I thought this was the gay marriage thread regarding Minnesota... But here's my response to charles.

reply to post by charles1952
 



Originally posted by charles1952
You're fine and strong, and largely problem free.


I'm fine and strong, but I have problems, just like everyone else.



Any citizen is allowed to try to persuade the government to choose his preferred path, though. I guess that is my place.


Absolutely. It's your right to fight for what you believe in, just as it is anyone else's. I was speaking more on a moral ground. I should have been more clear. I don't think you have the moral right (not legal right) to dictate how others should live, unless it directly affects you. There is no indication that gay people marrying affects you. They are already doing it and having families. How is this affecting your life?


Again this mistaken idea that we're dealing with a right.


That's just semantics. The right to marriage is not explicit in the Constitution, but that doesn't mean it's not a right.

bing dictionary:

civ·il rights

basic rights: rights that all citizens of a society are supposed to have, e.g. the right to vote or to receive fair treatment from the law.

Synonyms: human rights, rights, constitutional rights, civil liberties, privileges, freedoms


dictionary.com


civil rights
plural noun ( often initial capital letters )
1. rights to personal liberty established by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. constitution and certain Congressional acts, especially as applied to an individual or a minority group.


Besides, the 14th amendment protects privileges as well as rights.

14th amendment:


No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; ... nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Marriage is a legal contract with the state, just as buying a car is. I think you would find denying the "right" to buy a car to homosexuals to be ridiculous. I hope so.




And you know that the law treats differently situated people differently.


Yes. With reason:
Prisoners are treated differently because they've committed crimes against the state or nation...
Mentally incompetent people are treated differently because they're assumed to be dangerous and/or incapable of making rational and responsible decisions.
Children are treated differently because they are not yet matured and assumed to be unable to make responsible, adult decisions...

Black people USED to be treated differently because of their skin color and heritage.
Women USED to be treated differently because of their gender.

What reason would you give for treating people differently because of whom they love?



I'm perfectly willing to accept an emotional argument for homosexual marriage, emotions are valid, but I still haven't seen a logical one.


I think I just showed you a logical (and legal) argument for marriage equality.

edit on 6/24/2013 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 05:16 PM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 

Dear markosity1973,

I'm sorry I didn't notice your post (or Benevolent Heretic's), it was entirely unintentional.

The thrust of your post seems to be the spirtual aspects of the situation. As briefly as I can, I'll describe my position.

Exodus started with good intentions. They found they were doing more harm than good, and they had left the proper understanding of the dignity of the person behind. They closed, and apologized. I'm glad that happened.

God doesn't hate you, despite what Westboro Baptist proclaims. The religion I'm most knowledgeable about, Catholicism, doesn't hate you. I don't hate you. Anyone that hates you is on the wrong path. It is hard to ignore their yells and hatred, but it is not justified hatred.

Believing that God hates you is an error, and a very painful and damaging one.

Everyone has a tendency towards one or more sinful behaviors. Thankfully, I'm not interested in greed, gambling, drinks, or drugs, but I do have tendencies regarded as sinful. God and the Church want to help all of us deal with our individual tendencies, to make us better, not crush us. I will probably never get completely over my tendencies, but I am learning to deal with them. I hope to come to God as spotless as I can be, and I'll trust in His mercy for the rest.


What if you actually believed that God hated you so much that you started to actually believe that you are a blight to this earth and that you poison everything and everyone you come near?
Yes, I can identify completely. I was one of the almost suicides.

If you create a world which is truly equal, that won't solve the problem you have expressed.

Wait a minute, just had a thought, maybe it would solve your problem IF your problem is how people feel about you. I'm sorry to ask this question but is the problem how the world sees you, or how God sees you. If your worried about how God sees you, then what the rest of the world thinks, good or bad, makes no difference. If the problem is how the world feels about you, then all you have to do is change everybody's attitude. Passing a law won't do that. Abortions have been legal for forty years, and there is still a lot of opposition.

(Oh, and semantics only matter when there is confusion over a word. I understood you.)

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 05:54 PM
link   
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

As markosity1973's post was spiritual, yours is legal. I'm honored that you both think I can give a response which is worth reading.


I don't think you have the moral right (not legal right) to dictate how others should live, unless it directly affects you. There is no indication that gay people marrying affects you. They are already doing it and having families. How is this affecting your life?
Didn't we just go through this on the subject of the baker? His life has been affected. Besides, why do you choose that standard? I am not directly affected by illegal drug use, or animal abuse, or threats against the President, or smuggling, or DVD piracy, or any of hundreds of illegal things. "Directly affected" is not a reasonable standard to apply.

So, with that out of the way, the argument you present is "Homosexual marriage is a right which is being denied." You arrive at that conclusion by first admitting it is not a right given in the Constitution, but by two online, non-legal dictionaries defining "Civil Rights." One gives "Privelege" as a synonym, not a definition, for Civil Rights, and the other says they're "Rights" created by Congress.

If a "right" didn't exist yesterday, but it does today, only because a majority of Congress thought it should, what kind of right is that? It can be created or destroyed by Congress at a whim. That's not anything resembling a right.

Besides, the 14th amendment protects privileges as well as rights.
Since you use car buying later in your post, is driving a right or a privilege? Remember that you must have insurance to drive. It can only be seen as a privilege, subject to whatever restrictions government chooses to put on it. A right which can be eliminated by a vote of a state legislature is not a right.


Marriage is a legal contract with the state,
A contract can only be entered into when both parties are willing. The problem homosexuals are trying to overcome is that, in many places, the government is not willing.

And your final argument is:

What reason would you give for treating people differently because of whom they love?
First, the question you ask is "Why not?" An immediate answer is "Why?" A second answer is that I don't need a reason, the legislators need a reason. And as far as we know they could be voting for one side or the other for dozens of reasons.

But the serious answer is that there have been some pieces of evidence indicating that it would be bad for society as a whole, and nothing significantly showing that society would be better, as a whole.

Neither law or logic seems to support the arguments you've made.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 25 2013 @ 05:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by markosity1973
 



Dear markosity1973,

Hi Charles,

Yes I decided this was the thread to talk the spiritual implications of being gay. Let me respond to your responses;




Exodus started with good intentions. They found they were doing more harm than good, and they had left the proper understanding of the dignity of the person behind. They closed, and apologized. I'm glad that happened.



I am glad that it happened too. Yes, the original members started out with the best of intentions but they ended up deciding it was not the enlightened way forward and ended up in a relationship together. What grinds my gears is that organisation existed for some 40 years before it shut down. That's a lot of time and a lot of lives it has affected.



God doesn't hate you, despite what Westboro Baptist proclaims. The religion I'm most knowledgeable about, Catholicism, doesn't hate you. I don't hate you. Anyone that hates you is on the wrong path. It is hard to ignore their yells and hatred, but it is not justified hatred.


I know that, God doesn't hate me. I realised that some time ago. I too come from the Catholic church but my father's side of the family are a mix of Prebyterians and evangelist types so I've seem most facets of Christianity.



Believing that God hates you is an error, and a very painful and damaging one.


If only gay people in the church could realise that before the damage is done.



Everyone has a tendency towards one or more sinful behaviors. Thankfully, I'm not interested in greed, gambling, drinks, or drugs, but I do have tendencies regarded as sinful. God and the Church want to help all of us deal with our individual tendencies, to make us better, not crush us. I will probably never get completely over my tendencies, but I am learning to deal with them. I hope to come to God as spotless as I can be, and I'll trust in His mercy for the rest.


This is standard catholic belief and yes, we are all sinners. Some (well a lot actually) in the wider church have the faulty belief that some sins are more worth picking out than others to spell out and make and example of and homosexuality is right up near if not at the top of the list.



What if you actually believed that God hated you so much that you started to actually believe that you are a blight to this earth and that you poison everything and everyone you come near?

Yes, I can identify completely. I was one of the almost suicides.


So you do know suffering, hence why you show compassion. You have my profound respect, sympathy and gratitude that you are still here




If you create a world which is truly equal, that won't solve the problem you have expressed.


Here's where we disagree. By equality I don't just mean in the realms of religion, I mean in greater society where all non destructive beliefs and lifestyles are accepted, give and receive acceptance to one another in the spirit of altruism.



Wait a minute, just had a thought, maybe it would solve your problem IF your problem is how people feel about you. I'm sorry to ask this question but is the problem how the world sees you, or how God sees you. If your worried about how God sees you, then what the rest of the world thinks, good or bad, makes no difference. If the problem is how the world feels about you, then all you have to do is change everybody's attitude.


No, I'm good with how the world and how God sees me. I try to speak for the people who have not found their voice yet, as there are plenty more unfortunate souls living a similar life and troubles that I had when I was younger right here right now.
edit on 25-6-2013 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
11
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join